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The funny thing is, you guys are only touching the top part of this subject, the most obvious and simple part of it, lets get deeper:

Maybe our minds aren't complex enough to understand what else is out there? Maybe there is another dimension that we cannot see, smell, hear, or touch? Maybe the secrets of our existance can be found there.

If the whole universe was made from a "big bang", what made that? then what made that? and again, what was before that?

Maybe we already are God's, we just don't know it yet, or maybe we are just a bunch of brains in jars of water sitting in a lab on another planet and nothing we do or see is real. But how do we define real?

Ok, time to turn to drugs...

Love doesn't exist.

Hmm... another religious debate

Some comments after skimming through:

1) I don't know what evolution has to do with any of this, but whoever said Christians don't believe in it doesn't know what he's talking about because it doesn't contradict any Church teaching

2) What does entropy have to do with anything? It's funny how some of us bring up science to justify convenient skepticism when, in reality, it has no bearing

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Originally posted by FuzzyGreen The funny thing is, you guys are only touching the top part of this subject, the most obvious and simple part of it, lets get deeper: Maybe our minds aren't complex enough to understand what else is out there? Maybe there is another dimension that we cannot see, smell, hear, or touch? Maybe the secrets of our existance can be found there. If the whole universe was made from a "big bang", what made that? then what made that? and again, what was before that? Maybe we already are God's, we just don't know it yet, or maybe we are just a bunch of brains in jars of water sitting in a lab on another planet and nothing we do or see is real. But how do we define real? Ok, time to turn to drugs...

I wouldn't go for the argument of our minds not complex enough... there are some mathematical therories trying to describe our universe in 9 space and one time-coordinates... it's hard to imagine how this schould look like, but it can be described in mathematical terms with no problem.
Only problem with such higher dimensions is, that noone has ever experienced the effects imlied by them.

And whoever said that the "big bang" theory describes the very first seconds of our universe? This theory always caused a lot of controversity... as it is derived from the red-shift of spectres of distant stars. Big bang says this is due to the Doppler-Effect and the stars ar drifting away from us... but there are other explanations that have no need for an expansion(->light aging).

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Originally posted by Michael Russo Hmm...2) What does entropy have to do with anything? It's funny how some of us bring up science to justify convenient skepticism when, in reality, it has no bearing

lots... it founds to my view of life. As some couldn't follow my post just saying there's nothing after death. I had to justify my point... others did by naming their fears or some other religious stuff.

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Maybe our minds aren't complex enough to understand what else is out there? Maybe there is another dimension that we cannot see, smell, hear, or touch? Maybe the secrets of our existance can be found there.

What exactly do you mean by other dimension? Do you mean like an additional dimension to the current 3+1 dimensions, or another 3d world through which you get by some sort of a wormhole, like another dimension would be described in a bad 3d movie?
Anyways, if it's the first case, then it doesn't sound possible that the answers are there. And in other case, it would just be hardly probable...
But what I don't understand is why do we HAVE to have a higher purpose? It is a pretty egocentric view, which basically says that god is here for us, to determine who fulfilled his purpose and who didn't. What's the point of a christian god without humans? Just to sit there and be there? And if he's perfect, why would he create us? He couldn't be bored, and even before creating anything, he knows what is going to happen with what he crates. He knows exactly who is going to go to heaven and who isn't, even before the person is born. So he creates individuals with the ability to choose, but knows right away what they will chose. Some individuals created are destined to go to hell, and he still allows the creations of people who are going to spend all of their existance except a finite amount of it in eternal pain and agony??? Also, it is surprising that god would only show himself to a small tribe which at that time was less than 1% of the world's population, and let all other people who were not believers die and not go to heaven without giving any of them at least a chance.

Also, through history, and even now, as I see from the evolution opposing people (which the official church doesn't oppose, it is more or less undefined about it), christianity and the bible were and are the worst adversaries of scientific research and free thinking. Most new theories like the roundness of the eart and evolution were dismissed by church, and people who brought up those ideas were opressed/expelled/punished/killed. Only a few years ago the official church said that it was wrong when it forced G. Galilei to say that the earth is not rotating aroud the sun. Now I'm not sure why a god would want so much harm and stagnation to come out of his messages. He knew it would happen, he knew inquisition would happen, he knew Giordano Bruno will be burned, as so many others...and still, he did nothing about it.

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Maybe we already are God's, we just don't know it yet, or maybe we are just a bunch of brains in jars of water sitting in a lab on another planet and nothing we do or see is real. But how do we define real?

Maybe, but as long as there is no evidence for it, it shouldn't be considered as a viable options.

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Originally posted by Michael Russo 1) I don't know what evolution has to do with any of this, but whoever said Christians don't believe in it doesn't know what he's talking about because it doesn't contradict any Church teaching

Yeah good one, I dont know what I'm talking about. Adam and Eve never really existed then in the christian perspective, and we all evolved from microrganisms after millions of years and slowly evolved into our current state.

Of course evolution is contradicted by church teachings! It is practically the opposite: Christians believe we were created in the same form that we exist today. Not to mention that the bible says the world is only around 7,000 years old.

ok renegade.

I understand your point of the anthropic principle, it makes sense (if you believe in evolution).

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Evolution isn't a belief system, it's a system of well researched facts. Just because you don't "believe" in it (can I ask you why not, btw?) it doesn't mean that it isn't the most correct explanation we have for the state of our speciate existence.

I don't believe in evolution for many reasons (and I am not blindly saying this, I took anthropology, and though I might not have a perfect understanding of these researched facts, I have a fair understanding of them). Firstly, I find it hard to believe that we originated from micro-organisms that evolved into neanderthals, that in turn evolved into what we currently are. How is it, that all these microorganisms evolved into different things; plants, animals, humans. Why were we the only stem of these evolved organisms that developed a high intelligence, and why did all the others stay far behind?

Other reasons invlove my religion, and I'm sure you've heard them all bbefore if you've been in a anglican high-school for 6 years.

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You can accuse me of whatever you like, but ignorance of the Christian faith should not be one of them.

I was just saying that christians wouldn't beleive in evolution because it goes against what was taught in the bible. If there are some christians who DO beleive evolution.. I would #1 be suprised, #2 ask how they can justify their believe in evolution and maintain the bible's teachings as being true at the same time.

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I don't need to prove the non-existence of souls. I'm making a negative ontological claim, and such a claim can only be disputed by making a positive ontological claim. That is, I can say "there's no such thing as unicorns" and unless someone can show me a unicorn, my point is valid.

Alright, then I make a positive ontological claim and say there are souls. You can't proove that it's not true, so my point is valid aswell. (and if you claim there IS proof, then I'd like to see it for it's validity).

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Oh, and calling my points "stupid" does not constitute a valid argument.

LOL.. Just my personal opinion.

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So far as I see it, an infinite life is worthless. Why acheive something today when I have all of eternity to do it in?

I doubt that eternity will be anything like our life here. No one knows what it would be like, but imo it wont be physical (as we live now.)

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What value can we possibly hold in life when we know that we - and every human on the planet - cannot actually die?

We can hold alot of value in our life.. just because we have an afterlife does not mean that we should not live this life any less fully, and of course we can die (in the physical sense).

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Then what's the difference between "oneself" and "one's soul then"?

that's exactly my point. Our soul is in essence 'ourself'.

Let me conclude by saying that any debating over this is pointless because neither of us will change our thoughts. You believe your thing, I believe mine, and NO MATTER WHAT, we can't change what eachother believes.

Also I just want to make an observation. It seems to me that many people who attend catholic school, or any other christian school, end up going against their religion. I for one attended a public school, and yet my beliefs remain strong. By being forced to accept religion as the truth, I think it pushes people away from it.

*applauds*

Props to Renegade and Chrono for great argumenting both pro and against the current issue,the way it should be done.

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Originally posted by DJ Chrono quote: I don't need to prove the non-existence of souls. I'm making a negative ontological claim, and such a claim can only be disputed by making a positive ontological claim. That is, I can say "there's no such thing as unicorns" and unless someone can show me a unicorn, my point is valid. Alright, then I make a positive ontological claim and say there are souls. You can't proove that it's not true, so my point is valid aswell. (and if you claim there IS proof, then I'd like to see it for it's validity).

I sure do hope, this is a joke, or did you really not get the point of logic?
The point of an ontological claim is to verify a theory... you state the negative of the theory an try to find exmples supporting it. As long as you cant't proof the negative the theory is true. This proof is very weak as it collapses as soon as you find something verifying the negative. But it is PROOF.
Now what you do makes no sense, as you send someone out NOT to find proof (of the existence of souls). Meanwhile there's loads of proof for the opposite of your statement as noone ever has detected a single soul. Hence no way to proof your statement as long as YOU can't present the appearence of a soul.

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Originally posted by halo I sure do hope, this is a joke, or did you really not get the point of logic?

Neg. I win.

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I don't believe in evolution for many reasons (and I am not blindly saying this, I took anthropology, and though I might not have a perfect understanding of these researched facts, I have a fair understanding of them). Firstly, I find it hard to believe that we originated from micro-organisms that evolved into neanderthals, that in turn evolved into what we currently are. How is it, that all these microorganisms evolved into different things; plants, animals, humans. Why were we the only stem of these evolved organisms that developed a high intelligence, and why did all the others stay far behind?

Just look at evolution at this way:
1. No two creatures are equal
2. Within the same species, some creatures are stronger/smarter/better adapted than the others.
3. Children are usually similar to their parents.
I think we both agree that all three of these points are correct.
Obviously children of better adapted parents will usually be better adapted as well. Some may not be, but some may be even more than their parents. That's the point of evolution.

Also, here is a good example of evolution through selective breeding by humans. Look at all the varieties of dogs that all came from a common ancestor? Or do you say that god created all the varieties of dogs as well? Also, I am very interested in how you would explain historical evidence of people existing before 7000 years ago when you say god created earth. And most importantly, where do you think came from all the knowledge humans had by that time? They were chased out of eden where they did nothing themselves into this world, where they had to do all by themselves. Did they invent agriculture, domesticated animals and plants, discovered metal working, bronze, iron, war machines, architecture in few hundred years?
And what about archeological finds? Obviously, they don't agree with the bible, because judging by them it took much more for men to become what he is now. Did god plant all of that on the earth just to fool us? How do you explain Neanderthal bones that are so similar to us, yet different? And their age? You can say you don't believe in carbon dating, but that is not a good explanation, because it is pretty much accurate on a large scale. Are dinosaur bones also just a fake? Finally, do you truly believe in silly bible stories like Noah's arc? Do you truly believe he put 2 members of every species on his boat? What about plant species? What did he feed them? What if a lion came out and ate, say, a zebra female? Finally, what size of a boat did he have? I would like if you could explain to me those things.

Now, the evolution from microorganisms to us took billions! of years. That is billions of years, better members of the species had more offspring than weaker ones. How do you explain that we share more than 60% of our DNA with the most distant sort of bacteria to us, and about 99% of it with a chimpanzee? Is that also fake?

Now, about our large brains...Not every species stayed far behind. The Apes have pretty large brains, about a 1/3 of our own. Dolphin's brains are similarily sized to ours, some say even bigger, but they are aquatic, and without hands, so it's impossible for them to make tools and advance. Now, about the apes, they can be tought sign language, they use tools, they have about 30 different "words" in their vocal vocabulary, they have organized groups and alliances within their tribes, not much unlike us, except at a more primitive scale. Many of our facial gestures are very similar to apes. When you hear say, a razor scratch on a glass, it's an irritating sound, because it is very similar to chimpanzee cry for danger. Look at the facial similarities between man and an ape.

We are sort of evolutionary pioneers, no species yet achieved what we did now. But that doesn't mean it won't only that it will take time. But how come there are no others? Look at all the animal diversity, very few species of different branches have same intellectual capacities. A chance that species from two branches developed almost same brains, appendixes capable of manipulating objects, and were group animals, are almost infinitesimal. There were neanderthals, though, which are again a branch very close to ours, they either died away, or mixed with humans, that is yet to be determined.

Two more questions for you:
1. How do you explain fetus development, where you can see that fetus at different stages has gills, tail, and other stuff. Those are observable facts, and a young human fetus looks almost exactly like a fish, bird, or any other vertebrae fetus. Also, how do you explain people with atavism deformities, like tail, hair all over them, etc...

2. Do you really believe that out of 100+billion stars in our galaxy which is one of almost countless number of galaxies, there exists no planet with a biosphere?

Now, to believe in god as some supreme being that created all around us, like our universe is acceptable to me. But believing he did it 7000 years ago, and all of it's creation centered around earth and humans is definiteley not. Why the hell would he create all the planets and galaxies in the universe, if he would plant life on only one of them? And why bother the only ones he did create with bunch of unreal planted evidence for things that don't exist?

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Originally posted by Slylee yes i think god created man and gave him ability to create science

I think God created the universe then left it to it's own devices. I also agree with:

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Now, to believe in god as some supreme being that created all around us, like our universe is acceptable to me. But believing he did it 7000 years ago, and all of it's creation centered around earth and humans is definiteley not. Why the hell would he create all the planets and galaxies in the universe, if he would plant life on only one of them? And why bother the only ones he did create with bunch of unreal planted evidence for things that don't exist?

Maybe this bloke may shed some info

Re: Re: What happens when you die ?

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Originally posted by StalkerElmo I'm christian, I pray I'm going to heaven.

it's pointless because jesus quit saving souls

from now on it's:


^^^ been there, and believe me it's much more exciting than praying

okay, I'm not gonna read through all this shit. you believe what you believe, and this is what I believe:

I am not religious in any nature. I don't go to church, I've barely read a page of the bible, I roll my eyes and start eating as my family says grace at dinner... you get the idea.

I believe science can explain everything, UP TO A CERTAIN POINT. After all, how can you explain science? Why does gravity pull in and not push out? Why is fire hot, not cold? Why is everything made of atoms? Who makes these rules?

I believe in a supreme being of some kind that gave birth to the REALITY. Reality created science, science created the universe, the universe created us.... but we weren't created to worship some supreme being.

I figure that has to be a "supreme being" somewhere in the Universe. Try to imagine no life anywhere in the universe. Then iagine the universe condensed into a ball before the "big bang" (if thats actually what started it), and then imagine no ball. Just absolute nothingness. An empty reality, or even no reality at all... its a mind fuck... you just can't picture it. So I figure there must be some reality outside the boundaries of ours, with logical explanations for our universe, their universe, and all universes.


Life after death? Well, think about this (also, please correct me in the following bit, it's been awhile since physics):

There's a set amount of atoms in the universe (because atoms are not created nor destroyed during a chemical reaction)

There's a set amount of energy in the universe (energy is not created nor destroyed, just transferred)

So, I would think there could be a set amount of "life energy" in the universe. A good example of what I am saying is the "lifestream" in Final Fantasy 7. After death, our life energy is recycled all over the universe, bringing experiences. Therefore, our life energy continuously gains experience, and life in the universe continuously betters itself.

And that's what I think... there is so much we don't know

Nobody knows. Just believe whatever your parents believed, if it makes you feel better. Or, if you're man enough, admit you can't know and just live your life whatever way feels right to you.

Given an infinite number of mutually exclusive beliefs you could theoretically choose to hold, for which no criteria exist to indicate that some are more probable than others, it would be prudent to consider that whatever belief one choses to hold will almost certainly be at least partially incorrect...

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There's a set amount of atoms in the universe (because atoms are not created nor destroyed during a chemical reaction)

They are not destroyed in chemical reactions, but they are both created and destroyed in nuclear reactions.

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There's a set amount of energy in the universe (energy is not created nor destroyed, just transferred)

Here you are somewhat correct, but only if you look at matter as a form of energy. Therefore sum of matter and energy in the universe is always the same. That is the classical viewpoint. However, lot of recent research points out that this may not be so. Now, to not get too deep in it, i'll try to explain why. When you have empty space, it's not really empty at all. On a large scale, the space is neutral, neither gaining, nor losing matter. But, on a small scale, subatomic one, things are different. Sub-atomic particles are being created and destroyed all the time. That is possible because whenever a subatomic particle is created, due to necessary neutrality of the space, an antiparticle is created as well. These particles are never larger than quarks or electrons. A proton popping out is highly unprobable. Usually, a particle and an antiparticle are created very near to each other. They attract, and in a moment they dissolve into nothingness again. Sometimes, though, because of external forces, they do split up, and then you have two extra particles in the universe. This has been proven by scientific experiments. Implementations on a large scale, support the inflation theory as well, which is opposed to the standard big bang theory which lately has many problems. The biggest problem it has is that the universe is expanding more rapidly than it did before. So, amount of energy is always equal, but only on a medium sized scale. On a very large or very slow one, it appears that things are not quite so.

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So, I would think there could be a set amount of "life energy" in the universe.

First, you are confusing a set amount of energy, to a set amount of energy of specific type. There is not a set amount of any type of energy, only energy as a whole, and even that may not be so. The life energy theory is kind of interesting, but not probable. Life energy would be a mix of chemical, thermal, and maybe some other energy. Electrical also. But, first, energies can go from one form to another, so the "life energy" could easily be transfered to any other energies when you die. Where do you think bugs and worms get their energy from? From eating dead corpses. Corpses chemical energy is absorbed by other animals who use it for themselves. Thermal energy is soon released into the surrounding area. Electrical energy, well, there wasn't much of it to begin with, but it basically either leaves the body into earth or atmosphere, or some of it stays in the tissue and polarizes small portions of it, but nothing signifficantly noticable. So when you die, this energy is more or less transfered into other forms of energies.

thats the kind of response I was hoping for...

grade 11 physics just doesn't cut it for proving my theory...

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Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0 Also, I am very interested in how you would explain historical evidence of people existing before 7000 years ago when you say god created earth. And most importantly, where do you think came from all the knowledge humans had by that time? They were chased out of eden where they did nothing themselves into this world, where they had to do all by themselves. Did they invent agriculture, domesticated animals and plants, discovered metal working, bronze, iron, war machines, architecture in few hundred years? And what about archeological finds? Obviously, they don't agree with the bible, because judging by them it took much more for men to become what he is now. Did god plant all of that on the earth just to fool us? How do you explain Neanderthal bones that are so similar to us, yet different? And their age?

Well... if you closesly read the bible on the part of adam and eve leaving paradise, you will realise one very little oddity: Eve gives Birth to only two sons (as far as I remember), both got out to the world to get themselves some wifes and thus create the bloodstrain of mankind... read it up!
So human beings must have existed before god created adam similar to his own image.... was god just some very intelligent bio-scientist?

You guys need to fully read the bible before saying anything (pro or con) about it. I'm talking about truely reading it from cover to cover in an educational/historical kind of way. You should never knock something you haven't tried.

"If the good lord had intended us to walk, he wouldn't have created rollerskates."

Renagade and Chrono made some very good points.

However, the question that lie at hand is plain and simple: What happens when we die?

As far as I know, with knowledge that I've acquired all these years, is that the brain functions by storing, relating, processing info, memories, incidents, experiences. Once a person is declared brain-dead, all these "memory stored" will be erased. Whatever experience we had on Earth is officially over and and done with.

As for a soul, what is a soul? Who defined it? Did that human being who coined that word ever seen or experience a conversation with a soul? Have anyone of us seen, felt or hear a soul talking to us? Maybe when you are on LSD, it could be a religious experience for many. Other than that, in our very sane society...all we see and hear about life after death is all very well-managed by the TV media.

Religion has proven to unite many groups of people, restore their self-confidence or what-not.

The Bible does have many articles explaining the works of Jesus and many other great men. In today's context, they seem relatively incredible and yet, we have yet to see any of those stuff since the bible was completed.

I tend to believe what I see and all I see is people giving money to Churches, sexual molestation in Catholic Churches worldwide resulting in deaths, low self-esteem and what-not. Capitalism and Sex all rolled into one. Don't quote me on this...I am just relaying what the TV has informed me.

Off topic, Could Evil be more tempting that Good? It seems to fit every citeria our World at large is presently engaging in evil activities as defined by CNN. Besides, evil is defined by the standards of the society.

Heaven is a mystery to anyone who's still alive....until we see, experience and live it, I feel that it'll be foolish to believe any works written by men. After all, there were like us and damn, our minds can take our thoughts to a whole new different level everytime, whether sane or high. Many cults have emerged over years and are still emerging.....All you need is a charismatic twat to make you believe what he says and a beautiful protrait of YOUR life is painted by someone's flowery words....

Eversince I was corned by this Christian pastor who talked a load of bullshit about evolution to me, it made me realized that human beings talk a lot of shit, translate whatever they have learn or read onto anything, anyone, thinking it's 100% accurate.

Believe 50/50 and choose what's right...no one can influence your thinking...be yourself....one life, too many things to do, too little time.

F999

i dont know what death is so i dont believe in it...

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Originally posted by DJ Chrono Yeah good one, I dont know what I'm talking about.

Sorry, but actually you don't.

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Originally posted by DJ Chrono Adam and Eve never really existed then in the christian perspective, and we all evolved from microrganisms after millions of years and slowly evolved into our current state. Of course evolution is contradicted by church teachings! It is practically the opposite: Christians believe we were created in the same form that we exist today. Not to mention that the bible says the world is only around 7,000 years old.

I will repeat what I said before: evolution does not contradict the Church's teachings. Keep in mind I'm talking the RC Church, not the millions of other heretical ones.

All of the Chruch's teachings are actually very logical, methodical, philosophical... everything is rooted in reason. This comes as a surprise to many people, but it shouldn't considering that some of the smartest people historically are the ones who developed it. Catholic theology is a lot more than the "love everyone" attitude.



And you guys are still missing the point! We can argue all day about science, but you fail to see what that science is really pointing to. People who believe in God don't claim He's made out of atoms, so stop trying invalidate our arguments by bringing that up. The scientific method cannot prove God does not exist, nor that the scientific method itself is the only method for "validating" the existence of God.

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Originally posted by Michael Russo I will repeat what I said before: evolution does not contradict the Church's teachings. Keep in mind I'm talking the RC Church, not the millions of other heretical ones.

How is it not contradict the church's teachings? I fail to see this.

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