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Re: Re: Trance is simple

quote:

Originally posted by Arbiter Don't get me wrong, there are a lot of classical pieces I enjoy. But to think the genre can hope to compare in terms of complexity, when it is fundamentally based upon human limitations, whereas trance is based only on the limitations of machines, is the true manifestation of stupidity.

forgive me, for I never read your entire post when preparing my previous post. I would like to say that this statement is actually quite ironic. The very fact that on computers there is no limitation, and yet the most that can come out of it is "trance" is ironic indeed. Trance, generally, is not too difficult to reproduce on instruments. Alot of the litle sounds yes. but a good drumber, could, feasably reproduce a 4/4 beat throughout a song, could reproduce the hi hats, and most of the melody pieces. Imagine what Beethoven could do with acid? One could only imagine. Classical music, despite the "human limitations" actually has quite a few more levels of sound than most trance. Where trance only has a few individual instruments, many classical pieces have as much as a 70 piece symphony. So to say that it can't hope to compare is quite ironic indeed, because more has been done within the "human limitations" than has ever been done with a computer.

Re: Re: Re: Trance is simple

quote:

Originally posted by branmuffin forgive me, for I never read your entire post when preparing my previous post. I would like to say that this statement is actually quite ironic. The very fact that on computers there is no limitation, and yet the most that can come out of it is "trance" is ironic indeed. Trance, generally, is not too difficult to reproduce on instruments. Alot of the litle sounds yes. but a good drumber, could, feasably reproduce a 4/4 beat throughout a song, could reproduce the hi hats, and most of the melody pieces. Imagine what Beethoven could do with acid? One could only imagine. Classical music, despite the "human limitations" actually has quite a few more levels of sound than most trance. Where trance only has a few individual instruments, many classical pieces have as much as a 70 piece symphony. So to say that it can't hope to compare is quite ironic indeed, because more has been done within the "human limitations" than has ever been done with a computer.

a 70 piece symphone divided up into a certain number of parts.

also, recognize that humans cannot reproduce, in any way without some sort of computer, the sounds created by phazers, reverb, etc... there are so many ambient sounds that are produces as an "after effect" or some synths and even more that come from other little tweaks such as reverb.

interesting thoughts tho...

and beethoven... i think his music was really a product of the times. If you look through time you may notice this pattern: in the beginning of written "western classical" music, around 400AD, there was basically one type: church music. Chants and such were used in mass to add some "flair" if you wanna call it that. Much later, around 1400 AD, music was stull being used for church but now also entertainment purposes but only the rich could afford it because they could pay composers to compose. soon after, 1700-1800, music was much more accessible and there were a few different forms of "classical" as we know it today, we had romantic, baroque, medieval, classical.. and in each there was certain forms and such. now music is for everyone and there are hundreds of broad genres such as trance and thousands of sub genred like epic trance, progressive trance, goa trance, and so on. itts fucking crazy how exciting this is and how music has evolved from just one source (in america in writing). and back to beethoven, his music on acid would be probably similar to before since the forms he used are the forms he mastered.

-m

quote:

Originally posted by Rakoon Every genre is different, trance being the most different. The style of trance is to be repetitive and to repeat melodies. You cant compare the complexity of other music genres to trance because they are all different styles, and therefore its impossible to justly draw a comparison. It would be possible, however, to compare the complexity of 2 tracks within a genre. That said, all this fuss is based on opinion, since no one can truly compare the complexity between 2 different genres. Therefore each side of this argument (10+ vs 1) makes valid points but nobody will ever win

What he said.

Branmuffin, I don't think it is fair to line trance up against classical, even if it's just for the sake of your argument.

Classical is in a league of it's own regarding talent and complexity. If you line any musical genre up against classical it will look simplistic. Many people, if asked to name the most talented musician ever, would probably name a classical composer. Classical has been around for 100s of years and thus has a massive pool of people from around the world, amongst whom there are bound to have been some amazingly talented people. Trance is not very popular relatively speaking, and has barely been around a decade. The music is still evolving, it may die out, it may grow, who knows.

I agree with you that trance is simplistic so far as the final output is less 'cluttered', but to take it apart falls into the trap of treating an art like a science. Rachmaninov's Piano Concertos involve just a piano, does this make them 'simple'?

You're also working on the simple hypothesis that more instruments = more complexity. This disregards the merit of each individual instrument and how it is used. You could spend ages working on some awesome 303 lines and have trouble getting it to sound right, a Jazz musician could spend years honing on his skills, or a grungy metal band could get a local drummer to do a simple loop. You would mark all of these off as "1 instrument" and count up a final score of complexity? That is a major flaw with your analysis, you are counting the number of contingents and the frequency of their use rather than actually judging each contingent on it's merits. You are comparing arts quantitatively rather than qualitatively.

For the record I actually agree with you, so far as I know what you are getting at. However, I would say trance is "formulaic" and "minimalistic", but "simple" is the wrong word. As I said at the beginning of this post, I propose you take classical out of the equation, and judge the individual instruments on their merits rather than simply counting how many there are or how often they are used.


As I see it, there are two ways you can look at this:

Quantitatively: ie "This is far more complex than that, because he only used this instrument with this one in the background and repeats the same melody while the other track has all these instruments coming back again and again etc etc"
or
Qualitatively: ie "This is far more complex, look at the way he has manipulated this instrument to work in harmony with that instrument, look at the choice of timing in this track compared to this one which IMO introduces this instrument too soon, look at how he gently fades out this instrument etc etc"

I don't mind you calling trance simple, but I would rather you did so looking at it qualitatively as I have yet to see you do that. You are cynically treating this genre of music like a science and I believe that is why you have met a lot of opposition. It's not how many or how often instruments are used, it is how they are used. Look at impressionist paintings for example.

mmm.. pretty interesting thread. but no way i'm gonna read all that.

my point:

I used to tell my friends who listen to mainstream crap that my music was better because it wasn't comercial, it was more underground and more complex. Now I don't say it no more.

I started to realize many trance is just based on the same formula aplicated again and again and again without inovating, with similar main leads. that is comercialism, and it could be complex for the pioneers, but not for the ones who copy them.

Still, there are pretty complex tunes getting released. For a random example, Leama - Requiem For A Dream (Leama's Dream Mix). this tune is a valid point to show anyone who thinks trance is comercial crap that doesn't go nowhere. so much emotion and melodies put together perfectly.

My final conclusion would be that trance isn't THAT complex. but is more complex than the mainstream MTV pop stuff. you must have an open mind to "understand" certain trance tracks. some ppl aren't just intelligent enough to understand trance, or they don't give it a chance. But after all the point in trance is to get people animated at parties, not to be sitting home analising how complex the track is. It's more about the emotions, than the complexity. After all, music is a form of art about expressing emotions, making you feeling good, sad, angry, or whatever. It's not about seeing who can make the longest melody or such.

Simple music doesn't mean it's bad music.

shit its like English class for this thread ahahahahh eassay writing still exist.

Yeah music is simple and also nice lets keep it that way and stop being nerds about it. hahahaha

does anyone think trance would even sound as good with many more "parts"? Not that this is any sort of an argument because it obviously isnt but just a thought.

-m

Exactly. You could just bung loads of shit into a track without a care in the world and it would not be a complex piece of work. Also, it is possible to overproduce a track, as the saying goes 'too many cooks spoil the broth'. For example, I find breakbeat makes a nice change but I would not find 2 hours of nothing but breakbeat an enjoyable experience - I'd probably get a headache.

Got to the beginning og page 3, and couldnt be arsed to read anymore, so if what I say has been said, tough cookie

I find that the intelligence and complexity in trance comes from how it is put together and what is used. If it is as simple as you say, then anyone should be able to make at least a half-decent track.
Wrong, its the good tracks that have intelligent use of the samples to create certain emotive responses. The techniques used (far more than just a repeating bassline) ARE intelligent IMO.

and its genre, not genrea

quote:

Originally posted by evil_bastard Exactly. You could just bung loads of shit into a track without a care in the world and it would not be a complex piece of work. Also, it is possible to overproduce a track, as the saying goes 'too many cooks spoil the broth'.

that's one of the things i hate about psy/goa.. too many sounds on top of each other.. you can't focus on any while listening and that doesn't work for me.

What you percieve as simple is actually very complex. As i've said before, it's called MINIMALISM and it's the true procedural form of trance (good trance )

I don't think any form of music is inherently more intelligent or 'deep' than any other (except rap- 99% of rap is bullshit, dick-swinging, macho pastuering bullshit IMHO). I think it boils down to the artist producing the song. Some are better and more inventive than others (Juno Reactor does it for me as one of the best). I do think that as a starting point, trance is easier to do passable, working songs in than other forms of electronica (but not neccessarily 'good' songs). I personally feel IDM and drum n bass are the hardest to make from scratch (because I suck at programming my own beats).

i like trance, and i like classical, i put a classical cd in at my work and surprisingly they didnt argue to it. so how many quotes will branmuffin post? (and yes im expecting you to 'quote' this and follow it with a snyde remark). and yes youre right, clasical music does 'blow my mind'...

well... i played piano for 10 years. string bass for 7 years (i still play that instrument). so i can say i know classical music very well. branmuffin, do you know what a fugue is? its a piano piece based soley on repeated themes. the WHOLE thing is repeated but in a different key or position on the keyboard. symphonies, sonatas, all that crap. i've played everything. trust me, there is RIDICULOUS amount of repetition in classical music as well and initially it does seem more complex, but if you compare various artists from classical music (not just the well known ones) from the same time period. you'll see that all their crap is very much the same. only perhaps during the impressionist era and 20th century classical is there a major change in style and technique. now back to trance.... please go ahead to the studio and make a trance track. then PLEASE tell me what you think about its complexity. chances are u'll go to fruityloops click in a bunch of crap make a piece of shit sounding thing and then u'll think... damn. this is harder than i thought. my friend and i are working on a track right now... we are only 3 minutes into it and we have about 15 layers. it still sounds like utter non-professional crap. the amount of time it takes to tweak sounds etc... is completely incomprehensible until you take the time to try it yourself.

If good trance is incredibly simple and unintelligent, then so is most rock, all pop, all hip hop and most classical. This thread is fucking stupid.

Two words:

Sunday Club

oh god i remember this thread. it's over a year old already!

quote:

Originally posted by NooKLeaR you try making trance masterpieces like... Urban Train Nothing but You L'esperanza Columbia Animacion Try creating anything relatively close to the Duck, and i promise you will find it "complex".

you can add Tony Walker - Field of Joy (Original mix) to that list

quote:

Originally posted by puckhead Well, if you're still not convinced, you try making a tune like Xpander

w3rd!

i havent read the whole thread i cant really be bothered..

but i think trance is basically modern classical anyway. there is a LOT of repition in classical and it is quite often based on buildups etc (as is all music). it will often have one big lead (1st violins) and a whole heap of underlying melodies (2nd violins, cellos etc). the long chords made by synths (pads) are similar to long sweeping strings in classical music....why do you think so many trance songs feature strings and choirs and pianos? fair enough its for emotional value but there is still something to be said for that.

i dont think all trance music is simple but also remember the simple things in life are the best... how simple is for an angel? one of the biggest trance songs of all time

Producing a track that people are going to want to listen to seems like it should be simple... Until you try to do it. Plain and simple. It takes skill. It's not something that you can just up and decide to do. You have to learn the method. You have to understand the structure. Sounds to me like branmuffin is just looking for attention.

quote:

Originally posted by wwu.punisher Producing a track that people are going to want to listen to seems like it should be simple... Until you try to do it. Plain and simple. It takes skill. It's not something that you can just up and decide to do. You have to learn the method. You have to understand the structure. Sounds to me like branmuffin is just looking for attention.

[x] Past best used date.

its not how simple it is...is how amazing it sounds....

Branmuffin...you are listening to the wrong trance

Im going to try my best to make this as un offensive to all parties as possible. Comparing Trance to Jazz, classical, rock etc is like trying to debate the characteristics of a tbone steak and an apple. By nature trance has to be somewhat repetetive, have you ever heard of a hypnotist using nu fuzion jazz to put someone under hypnosis?? probably not. Trance is repetetive from face value but not repetetive in its intricasies which as stated before come from effects and background noises, secondary and tirtiary melodies aswell as layering. and for the record standard trance melodies are 32 beats or 8 measures, not 4. there are some tracks that use tempo changes or keychanges but the majority do not. some examples would be mauro picotto - komodo (megavoices mix) or nitelife - french kiss (scot project remix). The problem with tracks with tempo changes in teh middle is its pretty much impossible to fast mix out of them since you have to wait for the track to come up to speed again. Trance is not the only repeteive genre out there though. out side of the EDM scene. rock is formulaic and has been the verse chorus verse chourus pattern for songs has been in use since the dawn of freakin rock music. and is still widely used today. although there are many rock songs that dont follow the fold, the same can be applied to EDM where some tracks or artists dont follow the pattern either ie Kraftwerk. I will break off to pure opinion for a second... rap defines repetetive. its a constant percussion track, with some sort of basssy riff and maybe some scratching and or samples and then some idiot spitting out crap about how he has a glock and some hoes and some mad cash.... blah blah blah crap!! but the sweet aint as sweet without the sour right?? so we need genres like progressive house and rap to remind us how great and cool trance is . As for Classical, to retort the example of pachebell cannon in D, in fact this song is about as close to trance as classical gets. its one freakin theme to the whole piece. layered melodies that build up from teh begining starting with teh cello's repetetive bass line... then adding your violins and viola's with the 4 or 5 part melody. alot of trance tracks do not contain only one melody some have 4 or 5 different melodies. as with classical music melodic themes are revisited mulitlple times through a piece in different forms, not unlike trance which will use similar melodies with different synths or maybe different note patterns. I think going about trying to prove any genre of music more intelligent than another is futile (unless your talking about cRAP or prog.... he he) musical tastes are a matter of personal taste and im sure there are some nasa rocket scientists out there who listen to dj sammy and 50 cent..... so calling trance simplistic is completely wrong in my opinion. Im sure if you heard Beethoven's Fur Elise redone using cheesy fruity loops synths you would call it simplistic too. no personal digs here, but starting a thread like this on a board called trance addict is like wearing a sign that says "god bless america" through the middle east.... and no offence to my neighboors down south but even you know what would happen if you did that... :P Comparing trance to classical isnt right. there are many similarities and there are many differences. but you cant argue which one is better overall. theya re completely different genres of music. its like trying to debate which religion is better (although we all know its scientology... ) and all that has caused over the year is war.


thats my 0.02$

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