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-- What happened to Lightning Records?
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quote:

Originally posted by SuperFarStucker It's impossible to fairly assess the damage/good mp3's have done to the music industry, it is simply a question that cannot be answered.

I will admit that as a whole, it will be difficult to prove one way or the other until maybe a few more years from now.

The dance music industry as a whole is not quite as big as the pop music culture, so if things like seeing Bonzai fold keep happening, we may indeed have the evidence in just another year or two. I seriously doubt that dance labels can simultaneously survive the loss of sales due to mp3 and a downturn in the economy (like we're currently experiencing) as compared to some of the major pop labels.

quote:

Originally posted by DJMaytag What, that theft is wrong? That record labels are being hurt due to the theft of their music?

But where are your figures to prove this, afterall as many people here say, without mp3s they wouldn't have bought records, are the labels gonna turn the money down cos its come from sum1 who dl an mp3 then, as a moral stand ? no fucking way will they, so in theory, without the 'boom' of mp3s helping ppl get off rap music & stuff, most trance artists would be nobodies doing nothing with themselves, and working in supermarkets or something

quote:

Originally posted by ferrycorstenfan But where are your figures to prove this, afterall as many people here say, without mp3s they wouldn't have bought records, are the labels gonna turn the money down cos its come from sum1 who dl an mp3 then, as a moral stand ? no fucking way will they, so in theory, without the 'boom' of mp3s helping ppl get off rap music & stuff, most trance artists would be nobodies doing nothing with themselves, and working in supermarkets or something

OK, say pre-Napster there were 2 million ppl worldwide BUYING records and CD's. If you say that due to mp3's, you've quadrupled the number of people involved to 8 million. You increased the number of POTENTIAL customers, but because the extra 6 million aren't all paying customers, you're really not that much better off than with the original 2 million. If you factor in the number of ppl in the original 2 million that resort to filesharing, you're likely to have LESS than your original customer base than you had pre-Napster.

A very large majority of artists are still holding down day jobs in addition to releasing tracks ya know. There isn't much money for smaller artists, so very few are making their living strictly as artists.

If you ask a DJ like Armin or Tiesto, they'll say that mp3 has helped them, but it's primarily due to the exposure that enables them to get more gigs worldwide, which pay them SIGNIFICANTLY MORE than any sort of record sales would garner for them.

If you ask someone who primarily releases tracks as an artist and is not a DJ (or not a very big name DJ), I'm sure you'll get a very different opinion.

quote:

Originally posted by DJMaytag But I do believe there are a significant number of ppl out there that have no intention of ever buying anything that DO download rips of individual songs that DO have an impact on sales. [...] I'm sorry if my opinion turns you off, but I stand by my opinion that labels are being hurt by those who have no intention of ever purchasing the tunes they steal.

People who have no intention of ever buying anything couldn't possibly impact sales. By definition they don't impact sales, thus whether or not they download rips of songs they weren't intending to buy is irrelevent. Contradictions like this, which for some reason you stated twice within a single post, make it hard for me to take the rest of your argument seriously.

quote:

Originally posted by DJMaytag If you ask someone who primarily releases tracks as an artist and is not a DJ (or not a very big name DJ), I'm sure you'll get a very different opinion.

The following is excerpted from an i:Vibes interview with trance producer GTR. As it happens he primarily releases tracks as an artist and is not a very big name DJ:

i:Vibes: A question we ask to all we interview is what their opinions on digital media (e.g. mp3s, etc) is?

Gareth: Wicked. Although a lot of the music industry hate mp3s, I think they�re great. For example, I�ve finished tracks off on a Friday afternoon, sent an mp3 across to my friend and Godskitchen resident Jon O�Bir, and he�s burnt them to CD and played them at CODE that very night! How could you have done that a few years ago?

I also don�t have any real issues with people swapping tracks, it�s a great of evaluating tunes before buying them and fantastic for new producers who want to get exposure.

Of course, there are some people who take the piss � and by this I mean people who don�t buy ANY albums because they download them or, or DJs who download tracks and play them out rather than buying them. This does takes the piss in my option � and although I don�t agree with the way the music industry points the finger solely at mp3s for falling sales � the people who take a lot out and don�t put anything back in are undoubtedly doing some damage, and spoiling it for the majority of people who use mp3s sensibly.

However, in any case, mp3s aren�t going to go away � the cat is well and truly out of the bag and will never be going back in, so the industry needs to stop moaning and work within the new environment. Simply telling people not to download music is madness � as if anyone listens? Also trying to create new formats that can�t be played on computers is only likely to piss people off even more. Sasha has the right idea � making every part of every track on Airdrawndagger available to download was a brave move, but one that shows he appreciates that mp3s are here to stay so we need to work with them, not against them.

I do not believe MP3 is this main culprit behind Lighning records' demise. That's the PC thing to say at the moment. For one thing, MP3's/the internet are responsible for much of their rise in popularity over the last few years. MP3 is the scapegaot at the moment. A Britney Spears album fails to meet sales expectations and the RIAA screams "It's those mp3's!!", failing to recognize factors like the failing economy or the fickle demographic that buys the albums. There's more to this Lightning records' thing than meets the eye - putting the blame on MP3s is the easy way out.

Not to mention... with trance music, many of the people who download stuff (on this board even) would not buy the vinyl even if MP3 technology was not available. Most songs are not released on CD single anymore. I don't own a turntable, I live in an apartment so I won't be going out and buying one (my landlord would not like it much) and I like music that I can listen to in my car. So unless these trance labels want to start making their music more accessible to the masses, they should stop complaining - Most DJ's still rely on vinyl, so where's all this money loss coming from? This confuses me.

Plus, back when I listened to alternative and pop music, most of the stuff I listened to I taped off the radio - I guess I've been doing the illegal sharing thing for about 20 years now

DJ Maytag - where in Madison is your store located? I used to live there...

quote:

Originally posted by starglider People who have no intention of ever buying anything couldn't possibly impact sales. By definition they don't impact sales, thus whether or not they download rips of songs they weren't intending to buy is irrelevent. Contradictions like this, which for some reason you stated twice within a single post, make it hard for me to take the rest of your argument seriously.

OK, so what about the shady DJ's that download rips and burn to CD without ever intending to buy the vinyls? They're not only impacting sales by using material that they should be buying, but they're often even profiting from it!

quote:

Originally posted by torontotrance I argue because I think mp3's are worth something in some regards..tho i refuse to download albums.

^ *Agrees*

Downloading Albums is bad for your soul!!
You will burn in hell if you do!

quote:

Originally posted by starglider Of course, there are some people who take the piss � and by this I mean people who don�t buy ANY albums because they download them or, or DJs who download tracks and play them out rather than buying them. This does takes the piss in my option � and although I don�t agree with the way the music industry points the finger solely at mp3s for falling sales � the people who take a lot out and don�t put anything back in are undoubtedly doing some damage, and spoiling it for the majority of people who use mp3s sensibly.[/i]

THIS is what I'm talking about. Sure, mp3's are great if I wanted to send a song I wrote to a big name DJ that could play it. But considering that cases like this are miniscule compared to all the all out blatant stealing going on.

quote:

Originally posted by DJMaytag OK, so what about the shady DJ's that download rips and burn to CD without ever intending to buy the vinyls? They're not only impacting sales by using material that they should be buying, but they're often even profiting from it!

How many professional(!!!) djs does that?
I think most djs care about the music they play = pays for the music they play...

One thing u must understand dude is that ppl do buy records even tho mp3s are around.

quote:

Originally posted by DJMaytag OK, so what about the shady DJ's that download rips and burn to CD without ever intending to buy the vinyls? They're not only impacting sales by using material that they should be buying, but they're often even profiting from it!

You won't find many people on here who condone that kind of behaviour. To be fair though, I can't imagine those kind of individuals represent a very large portion of all music lovers. But yeah, they're basically thieves and aren't doing the right thing. What are you going to do, tell them to stop? Preach at them? That won't accomplish anything. Oh wait, that's what you're doing here too.

As Gareth so eloquently put it:

However, in any case, mp3s aren�t going to go away � the cat is well and truly out of the bag and will never be going back in, so the industry needs to stop moaning and work within the new environment.

quote:

Originally posted by robstar How many professional(!!!) djs does that? I think most djs care about the music they play = pays for the music they play...

You'd be surprised how DJ's are doing this. Take a look around at all the mp3 DJ systems being sold. There is a pretty significant number of semi-pro DJs who are burning CD's and spinning them in clubs on CD decks and mp3 DJ systems. Maybe this is only a phenomenon in the US, where there are those who want to cash in on the DJ craze and want to makes as much $$$ without dropping any of their own bling bling.

Just like there are producers making crappy cookie cutter tunes to make a buck, there a DJ's out to do the same.

quote:

Originally posted by DJMaytag You'd be surprised how DJ's are doing this. Take a look around at all the mp3 DJ systems being sold. There is a pretty significant number of semi-pro DJs who are burning CD's and spinning them in clubs on CD decks and mp3 DJ systems. Maybe this is only a phenomenon in the US, where there are those who want to cash in on the DJ craze and want to makes as much $$$ without dropping any of their own bling bling. Just like there are producers making crappy cookie cutter tunes to make a buck, there a DJ's out to do the same.

Yep it's all the Americans fault goodnight

quote:

Originally posted by ferrycorstenfan Yep it's all the Americans fault goodnight

well, at least we can agree, that that's pretty funny!

quote:

Originally posted by DJMaytag well, at least we can agree, that that's pretty funny!

hehe you think we agree but one point that so many of you ignore is the number of releases being made:
because the number of releases goest up, the financial return expected grows, but seeing overall sales has not gone up significantly, no money coming back = issues for the label.

It's the labels fault ( in part yes ) that have forged themselve into an industry and think releasing 200 vinyls a year will be ok.

Poor management, and btw, yes lightning had horrible distribution ....


Labels will continue to fold if they don't grasp the differences in the market and continue making constant releases without "texture".


oh well

quote:

Originally posted by starglider As Gareth so eloquently put it: However, in any case, mp3s aren�t going to go away � the cat is well and truly out of the bag and will never be going back in, so the industry needs to stop moaning and work within the new environment.

I remember writing that, but can't remember where I wrote it. Where was it again?

Anyway - I was a staunch supporter of mp3s for years, and still am in a way, however I started to change my stance a little when my favourite record labels started to go bust

I still stand by that statement: mp3s aren't going to go away, and the more we preach at downloaders, the more they're going to stick two fingers up. Fact is, they don't feel sorry for record labels (even when they go bust) and they don't feel sorry for artists, even when they're not getting paid. End of.

This means there's no point saying "what you're doing is wrong", when people think they've got a right to download this music. All that producers and labels can do is become increasingly protective over their music prior to release - which you'll find a lot of people doing, which is a shame in my opinion but the way it's going.

Gaz

NB: I have no problem whatsoever with people downloading music for preview purposes, for example to decide whether to buy vinyl or not. My only gripe is with people who download everything (singles, albums) and don't put a penny back in - this minority of people is giving sensible mp3 users (ie: the majority) a bad reputation.

*adds GTR to his famous producers on TA-list*

Welcome to the forums,Gareth.Good to have ya on board(even though I suspect you've been here for quite sometime now)

quote:

If you want to talk about extreme, try doing this: I wasn't able to find much of the good trance after 1996, so I was stuck listening to a rotation of pretty much ONLY these CD's for several YEARS: Sasha & Digweed - Nothern Exposure 2 (Westcoast) Thomas Michaal - West Coast Vibe The Mix by David Padilla DJ Energy - Megatones Dave Ralph - Tranceport II Trancesylvania 9 Chris Fortier - Alpha

How 'bout that, a Thomas Michael fan! I still have West Coast Vibe in my glove compartment! Similar list for me while in grad. school working on my thesis:

Sasha and Digweed - Northern Exposure 2
Digweed - Bedrock
Thomas Michael - West Coast Vibe
Burnt copy of Oakenfold's GOA mix (all in one- no cues for songs)
Orbital - Diversions
Hackers - Original Soundtrack

Amazing how worn out these CDs are. In regards to your arguments, I tend to agree with you on some of your points here. However, it seems that you've been around the block a little longer than most here, and kinda set your expectations on others on what you feel is most appropriate for those to buy and support the music. Many folks here (like myself) don't have the luxury of having time and money to go out and buy vinyl to educate ourselves on the music we like. MP3's are definitely a convienience factor, which seems to be the tune of everything our generation does nowadays (that "gotta have it now and I don't want to make an effort" attitude). Admittedly, I fall under this category at times as I've downloaded many o' singles as well as full length CD mixes (and then just got the cuesheets off of various websites). I'm especially not too proud of downloading full-length CDs, and haven't done that for some time now (nor will I ever anymore). But truthfully, I really didn't know how much something like that could potentially effect the artists and possibly affect their sales until I started paying attention to record shop closings, artists' pleas to buy their music, etc. (by the way, for those of you who believe that artists aren't concerned with file swapping, go to Dave Gabriel's posts in the Music Discussion). This is, in essence, stealing to me, and I feel pretty idiotic for not knowing this when I did do it.

And I guess to a certain extent I believe that downloading singles should be considered the same as well. Those folks who are crying "foul" over you making this a point have likely a few gigs of singles on their hard drives (as I do). Most websites that post singles downloades will say something along the lines of "for promo only - please buy the single if you enjoy". Sure, they may be trying to cover their ass in legalities, but they also post this to help the music industry, not hurt it. I don't like the fact that this distribution may definitely be hurting the industry and the artists, and I may deny it 'till I'm blue in the face. But it seems that MP3's are definitely becoming a piece in the puzzle, whether people want to believe this or not.

Yeah, there are other pieces. For example, crap music being produced in mass quantities by the record lables. This is undeniable for all genres of music! For some reason, record lables think it more appropriate to produce quantity, not quality. Another factor is the fascist d$ckhead stance of the RIAA and their neo-Nazi methods of hard-ball lobbying (currently more powerful than the NRA according to some politicians) and attempts to shut down ALL P2P file swappers (or throw all users in jail!). Yet another factor is the decline in economy, which many companies seem to be in denial about. But it is difficult to measure how much affect MP3 file swapping has on the decline in sales, but it's part of the problem nonetheless whether you want to believe it or not. Now some of you can hide and say, "I only download music so I can buy it in the stores!". Now granted, a select few of you may actually do this, but to the rest of you (and you know who you are), you're LYING THROUGH YOUR TEETH!

So what's to be done here? Like others have said, there has to be a compromise here. P2P will not go away, no matter how hard RIAA comes down on everyone. People on the internet are just too clever, and the legalities of things will always be in question. Besides, despite the potential hurt P2P has done, it has also helped a great many artists (which is also difficult to measure), and that is also undeniable. However, artists need to be respected, and their music should be purchased to show that respect. I've begun to make purchases again, not just of mix CDs, but singles as well. I feel pretty good about that. Now, I won't lie, I'll still grab an MP3 off the internet here and there, and I won't grab it "for promo only". But I'm really making a habit out of purchasing music again. I also think that the "scene" will do itself some good with it's music by finding it's identity again, considering it seems a little lost and has no real sense of direction. Finally, if we ever see an upturn in our economy, things will hopefully pick up for everyone - artists and record companies. Geez I ramble. Sorry.

quote:

Originally posted by Sand Leaper *adds GTR to his famous producers on TA-list* Welcome to the forums,Gareth.Good to have ya on board(even though I suspect you've been here for quite sometime now)

thanks mate.. been registered for a while although I don't get to check these boards as much as I'd like but it's nice to see what's going on every once in a while

i think most people that download tunes and don't buy them wouldn't have bought them anyway, if they would've bought them before they still should, i prefer to have a cd/vinyl of a tune than a file on my computer
that said, some people don't know how to release tunes and deserve to lose sales, i bought gouryella - gouryella on cd a few years back and the original mix isn't on it, idiots, radio edits suck


why do some consider it ok to download singles but downloading albums is sacrilege?

there is a significant difference between the pop industry and the trance industry. britney spears, christina aguilera, etc. are most certainly being affected by the download of mp3, as they release all their music on cd. people download these cd's without paying anything for it. lightning records and other trance labels, on the other hand, rely mainly on vinyl sales.
as stated before, mp3 is a great possibility for dj's to prelisten new releases and select which ones to buy on vinyl afterwards. they get to know more tracks as well, and with being able to purchase these records online, we can hardly speak of a loss of revenues at that point.
then we have the people who don't dj. they download new releases, but since they never buy vinyls anyway (why purchase turntables when you're not planning to dj?), labels do not lose any money because of them either.
the only losses labels experience, come from cd-compilations and albums, and the one or two shady dj's you talked about. but this is not the only reason for the bankrupcy of lightning in any way!

Can I just challenge the assertion a lot of people are making that record labels rely on vinyl sales?

For a lot of labels royalties from compilation licensing can actually make more than vinyl sales, which are obviously on CD, therefore mp3s do affect them.

quote:

Originally posted by gaz@influential Can I just challenge the assertion a lot of people are making that record labels rely on vinyl sales? For a lot of labels royalties from compilation licensing can actually make more than vinyl sales, which are obviously on CD, therefore mp3s do affect them.

i don't know any figures, but i hardly think trance labels earn more money from compilations than from vinyls. they target clubs, not the masses..

quote:

Originally posted by tor8024 i don't know any figures, but i hardly think trance labels earn more money from compilations than from vinyls.

But they do! Putting tracks on vinly is pretty expensive, if someone puts ur track on a compilation u don't have to pay for the pressing. So since u don't have any expensives u make more money.

quote:

Originally posted by robstar But they do! Putting tracks on vinly is pretty expensive, if someone puts ur track on a compilation u don't have to pay for the pressing. So since u don't have any expensives u make more money.

I think so 2.
Lightning Records and its sublabels released a lot of compilations here in Belgium and the last 2 or 3 years, I've seen like 10 copied or downloaded compilations for every original (bought) compilation.

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