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-- Breaking News: Isreal and Lebanon at War?
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Originally posted by LazFX Wow and he is a Jew to boot!... And to think one of his heroes is Castro!! One hell of a guy there, I mean with all that knowledge of the inner workings of the hidden agendas of the western governments. Please Z, do not be swayed by this guy's tripe, he is I will admit a great mind, in academia, but as a person and a political activist, he is a low life and and a hack...You are a smart person and I respect you highly, so I tell you, keep an open mind, and take what Chompsky says with a grain of salt.... I speak from experience, I too fell under his spell back in my college days..

I'm very familiar with Chomsky and his political writing, lectures, and activism. And he is by no means a "self hating Jew." And no, I don't automatically accept everything Chomsky has to say. And Castro is not one of his heroes. I have no idea where you got that. Then again, I've read several distortions, misrepresetation, and hit peices on Chomsky. That is to be expected from the establishment and mainstream media, as he's one of the leading voice of dissent in mainstream political discourse.

Israeli intelligence at its best. Good job guys.
http://www.naharnet.com/domino/tn/N...22571D20036836D

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Originally posted by Epicurus The alternative path, then, for Israel to achieve their dual goals without bombing and invading Lebanon did indeed exist. Furthermore, though not full-proof, the bloodless, diplomatic alternative was indeed reasonable and had a fair chance of succeeding. Israel, however, never gave diplomacy a chance, which simply makes their response that much more unjustifiable. Israel chose to completely ignore diplomacy and instead immediately engaged in their barbaric campaign of collective punishment. The obvious question that begs to be asked then is: Why? to be continued...

Thanks for the essay Epicurus, I look forward to reading the final text

As for the Isreali response, I'd have to say they either had had enough or just know that Hizballah won't quit dispite any olive branch from them.

I agree though that Israel has made it's point and it's time for the U.N. to pony up.
Let's just hope they can do their job, but that's easily another essay lol...

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Originally posted by Epicurus Israeli intelligence at its best. Good job guys. http://www.naharnet.com/domino/tn/N...22571D20036836D

Can anybody deny this is a war crime?

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Originally posted by George Smiley Can anybody deny this is a war crime?

I can.
Why is it a such a war crime? The men were suspected to have relation with the leader of Hizbulla so they have been taken for an investigation, and later released.

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Originally posted by Flotser I can. Why is it a such a war crime? The men were suspected to have relation with the leader of Hizbulla so they have been taken for an investigation, and later released.

They were kidnapped for a reason...which was?

And is it a crime in Israel to be related to a crimial?

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Originally posted by George Smiley They were kidnapped for a reason...which was? And is it a crime in Israel to be related to a crimial?

One of israels best (if not the best) commando unit was sent to depth of Lebanon to get these people for investigation - so you can guess there was an indication that some valubale inforamtion can be taken from them. This unit won't be sent for no reason. Maybe the operation was a failure and the wrong people were captured but not me and not you can know it.
And the main point is that they were released later!

You say it's a war crime... it will be intersting to see according to what paragraph in the internation law (or the Geneva convention) this act should be seen as a war crime.

Kidnapping innocent civilians to use as a weapon against your enemy? You don't consider that slightly immoral?!?!

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Originally posted by George Smiley Kidnapping innocent civilians to use as a weapon against your enemy? You don't consider that slightly immoral?!?!

maybe its immoral, but its not a "war crime" like you called it. (I asked you to present a proof from the Geneva convention or the international law and you didn't do it)

And i'll repeat, this elite commando unit would not be sent to kidnap innocent civilians! Maybe by mistake the captured people were innocent but me and you have no clue.

And i'll repeat again. They were released.

From the kidnapped israeli soldiers even a life sign wasn't given to the famelies. And despite the fact they are soldiers, they are innocent 19-20 yearls old kids my age. They were kidnapped with no legitimate reason whatsoever, and you know they will not be released like these Lebaneese were just released without conditions.

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Originally posted by Flotser maybe its immoral, but its not a "war crime" like you called it. (I asked you to present a proof from the Geneva convention or the international law and you didn't do it)

Geneva Convention; Part I; Article 3; Section 1b

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And i'll repeat, this elite commando unit would not be sent to kidnap innocent civilians! Maybe by mistake the captured people were innocent but me and you have no clue.

But they were...

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And i'll repeat again. They were released.

Which suggests they were kidnapped in the first place, what's your point?

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From the kidnapped israeli soldiers even a life sign wasn't given to the famelies. And despite the fact they are soldiers, they are innocent 19-20 yearls old kids my age. They were kidnapped with no legitimate reason whatsoever, and you know they will not be released like these Lebaneese were just released without conditions.

So you're justifying the actions of Israel by the actions of Hizballah? So Israel is just as bad? Not that I think you think that, but that's how that last paragraph comes across. I'm not trying to justify Hizballah's actions so to refer to anything they have done is irrelevant...

quote:

Originally posted by George Smiley Geneva Convention; Part I; Article 3; Section 1b

You were close, but wrong.

This section says:
"taking of hostages"
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/First...ntion#Article_3

These peple weren't taken as hostages. By the dictionary the definition of a hostage is:
"A person held by one party in a conflict as security that specified terms will be met by the opposing party."
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/hostage

Bank robbers or terrorists usually take innocent people as hostages and condition their release with specified terms that should be met by the other party (bring us a Boing 767 full with cash, withdraw from Chechnya, etc.).
You are intelligent enough to understand you were mistaken, and that these people weren't taken as hostages, and thier uncondidtioned release proves it according to the above dictionary (and natural) definition.

quote:

So you're justifying the actions of Israel by the actions of Hizballah? So Israel is just as bad? Not that I think you think that, but that's how that last paragraph comes across. I'm not trying to justify Hizballah's actions so to refer to anything they have done is irrelevant...

I'm justifing this action - yes. But i'm not justifying any israeli action by comparing it to actions of Hizbulla like you say. I just tried to show its unfair you call Israel's action a war crime and not critisizing a much worse action by Hizbulla - making it look like Israel is worse than Hizbulla.

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Originally posted by Flotser This Lebannese were taken for investigation.

Not according to their lawyer...

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I'm justifing this action - yes. But i'm not justifying any israeli action by comparing it to actions of Hizbulla like you say. I just tried to show its unfair you call Israel's action a war crime and not critisizing actions by Hizbulla - making it look like Israel is worse than Hizbulla.

Well lets take a body count and see who's worse shall we?

Neither side has shown any regard for human life imo. Hizballah fired rockets willy nilly into civilian areas and Israel did exactly the same (but killed hundreds more). You DO NOT fight a guerilla war with airstrikes, it simply does not work. I know that, you know that, and I'm sure Israel's military planners know that...

The Israeli government is just as bad as Hizballah and seems to hold human life in as much esteme as their Hizballah bretheren

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Originally posted by George Smiley The Israeli government is just as bad as Hizballah and seems to hold human life in as much esteme as their Hizballah bretheren

Agree, as all my Lebanese and Jewish mates (who all get along really well) say: "both sides are as fucked up as each other"

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Originally posted by tathi Agree, as all my Lebanese and Jewish mates (who all get along really well) say: "both sides are as fucked up as each other"

While I don't disagree that both sides employ deplorable tactics, there's a world of difference of the scale of it and the suffering on eigther side, and there really is no debating that. And the fact still remains that Israel has consistantly illegaly expanded it's boundries and siezed land that it has no right to. Plus, Israel's population consists mainly of non-indigenous people while the indigenous population had been forcibly removed through violent coercive tactics (including terrorism and agression). So I wouldn't say both sides are "as fucked up as the other." I think it's alot more "fucked up" to kill/dehumanize and steal the land of an indigenous population than it is for the indigenous population to fight back by whatever means are available to them. With that kind of desparity and desperation, it's no surprise some of them also use terrorism as a means.

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z While I don't disagree that both sides employ deplorable tactics, there's a world of difference of the scale of it and the suffering on eigther side, and there really is no debating that. And the fact still remains that Israel has consistantly illegaly expanded it's boundries and siezed land that it has no right to. Plus, Israel's population consists mainly of non-indigenous people while the indigenous population had been forcibly removed through violent coercive tactics (including terrorism and agression). So I wouldn't say both sides are "as fucked up as the other." I think it's alot more "fucked up" to kill/dehumanize and steal the land of an indigenous population than it is for the indigenous population to fight back by whatever means are available to them. With that kind of desparity and desperation, it's no surprise some of them also use terrorism as a means.

I agree with that aswell which is why i have always had more sympathy for the Palestinians and Lebanese in conflicts current and past, i've always taken the stance that Israeli State-Sanctioned Terrorism is much worse than the conventional terrorism utilised by Hamas and Hezbollah (the casualties and destruction caused speaks for itself) but that doesn't make Hezbollah any less fucked up.

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Originally posted by Epicurus Israeli intelligence at its best. Good job guys. http://www.naharnet.com/domino/tn/N...22571D20036836D

Shoudnt Lebanon be invading Israel to free these guys? Like Israel did for its two soilders?

And BTW what the hell happened to those two soilders? I hope they were tortured to death and their neked mutilated bodies thrown back into Israel border.. not that Israelis care enough though.

Zero tolerance to terrorism.

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Originally posted by Purple And BTW what the hell happened to those two soilders? I hope they were tortured to death and their neked mutilated bodies thrown back into Israel border.. not that Israelis care enough though.

this deserves a ban don't you think?

just ignore the troll and it will go away

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Originally posted by Purple I hope they were tortured to death and their neked mutilated bodies thrown back into Israel border.. not that Israelis care enough though.

Your well within your right to hold those views but it probably isnt the nicest post when you considering the amount of Jews on this board.. Whats more is, to be an israeli you must serve a few years in the army. So how do you know these two chaps arent arab sympothisers who are forced into the conflict??
Most of the israelis ive met are!!

I think you should apologise

quote:

Originally posted by Purple And BTW what the hell happened to those two soilders? I hope they were tortured to death and their neked mutilated bodies thrown back into Israel border.. not that Israelis care enough though.

I have no love for the IDF/Israeli military, but that's just completely uncalled for. Regarless of how cruel or barbaric you may think anyone is, even some one you may consider to be your enemy, dehumanizing them is revolting and extremely dishounorable. And you dehumanize yourself in the process.

quote:

Originally posted by Purple Shoudnt Lebanon be invading Israel to free these guys? Like Israel did for its two soilders? And BTW what the hell happened to those two soilders? I hope they were tortured to death and their neked mutilated bodies thrown back into Israel border.. not that Israelis care enough though. Zero tolerance to terrorism.

Yet one more post to add to your naive list

Are you completely that ignorant to the fact that the very reason they went into Lebanon was because it was two of their soldiers??

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Originally posted by Flotser this deserves a ban don't you think?

Oh yeah?

You guys can speak anything about muslims,, And one word I speak against jews deserves me a ban? You fucking hypocrite.. internet dosent classify citizens as second grade and first grade... all are equal here... jews or muslims... take your superiority Israeili complex somewhere else... your own god will punish you someday.. just wait.. your sins will come back to haunt you one day..just wait..


Crimes you have committed will get back to you.. just wait..

And I still hope that equal no. of Israelies are killed as you have killed in Lebanon..because you deserve it. You fucking murderer.

I hope god punishes you HARD this time!

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Originally posted by Purple Oh yeah? You guys can speak anything about muslims,, And one word I speak against jews deserves me a ban? You fucking hypocrite.. internet dosent classify citizens as second grade and first grade... all are equal here... jews or muslims... take your superiority Israeili complex somewhere else... your own god will punish you someday.. just wait.. your sins will come back to haunt you one day..just wait.. Crimes you have committed will get back to you.. just wait..

I dont recall anybody wishing what you said on any muslim/christian or jew.

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Originally posted by Purple And I still hope that equal no. of Israelies are killed as you have killed in Lebanon..because you deserve it. You fucking murderer. I hope god punishes you HARD this time!

Seriously. Just stop.

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