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Posted by grimmy on Jun-01-2001 23:34:

He has knocked on your door and is in the house.

He is witnessing now, and you are listening. Not saying that's bad, just didn't know if you picked up on it

grimm

Posted by Phaze on Jun-02-2001 00:23:

quote:
Originally posted by Johnny Eckhardt
Hey, whatever you believe is your own personal choice. The only thing that I don't agree with is for ANY religon to force their beliefs on others and for any religon to be so close minded to think that "their" way is the ONLY way. Anything is possible in this universe, and to think that there is only 1 truth is absurd.
I think that sums it up real nice...

Posted by DJ Juno on Jun-02-2001 01:10:

quote:
Originally posted by totalcarnage

That's what I'm talking about...sup Juno...long time no hear...

hey man, how are you i see you got to 700 b4 me!! (mumble mumble)

Posted by totalcarnage on Jun-02-2001 01:26:

quote:
Originally posted by DJ Juno

hey man, how are you i see you got to 700 b4 me!! (mumble mumble)

sorry bout that but you were gone for several hours...just plain vanished. 800 is all yours bro.

Posted by twilochik on Jun-02-2001 04:07:

I think religion is good...no matter what it is...people are entitled to believe whatever they want and I don't know if what I believe is correct so I'm not gonna shove it down someones throat. And if you don't believe in anything I think thats fine too. I don't think religion is bad or wrong...I think we as humans fuck it all up b/c basically that is what we do best...fuck everything up.

Posted by totalcarnage on Jun-02-2001 04:25:

As if there is something wrong with fuckin' shit up...I excell at it big time!

Posted by DJ Juno on Jun-02-2001 05:30:

quote:
Originally posted by totalcarnage
As if there is something wrong with fuckin' shit up...I excell at it big time!

3 cheers for juno and total... tracEaddict Good God, and Bad God

Posted by totalcarnage on Jun-02-2001 06:22:

muhahahaha

I love being bad!....

Posted by Dj Martijn on Jun-02-2001 10:56:

quote:
Originally posted by Renegade
Jehovah's Witnesses are Christian aren't they?

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but all of (i.e. both) the Jehovah's Witnesses who have come to my place have been promoting Christ as opposed to Judaism?

yes that is tru we do view ourselves as christians

Posted by rockster77 on Jun-02-2001 14:51:

Well...my father was a Jehovah�s Witness, my mother still is, and when I was younger I went to meetings (church) three days a week and sometimes door-to-door on Saturdays.

As I got older, I started to form my own ideas and beliefs based on things I�ve read or seen or heard outside of the bible. I also came up with my own thoughts, ideas and questions that seemed to challenge the bibles teachings. Needless to say, I am no longer involved with the Jehovah�s Witness organization.

To me, there are things taught in the bible that just don�t make sense...and no one can seems to provide me with a valid explanation. Take the creation story for example. Simply stated: God created the heavens and the earth...God created animals and finally man. The mans name was Adam...and from Adam�s rib there came to be Woman. The woman�s name was Eve. From Adam and eve came all human beings. ...hmmm...I can�t understand a few simple things. In the whole story of creation, there is no mention of the dinosaurs...which lived long before man appeared on the scene. And, how can every living person descend from Adam and Eve? Adam and Eve had children, correct? This may sound dumb but, in order for their children to have children, they would have had to procreate with each other, or even with their parents. The bible teaches that incest is a sin, does it not? Just doesn�t make any sense to me.

Jehovah�s Witnesses say that everything must have a creator. Everything must have been planned...the earth is the perfect distance away from the sun...if it were 1% closer or farther away from the sun it would not be able to sustain life...and bla bla bla. EVERYTHING must have a creator? If so, who created God. God is supposedly so infinitely great and complex...shouldn�t something or someone this complex also have a creator?...Or am I to believe that He happened by chance or just simply always existed? That too is a contradiction in itself.

The fact of the matter is, I just don�t know what to believe. I believe in life...I know it exists...I�ve seen it with my own eyes. I don�t want to say that I don�t believe in God, I can only say that I don�t know that He exists. There is not enough evidence to support that theory. It just may be true, I don�t know, and nobody else does. No person on the face of this earth has the answer...they may think they do, but they don�t. Is man a creation of God, or is God a creation of man? Maybe we�ll find out some day.

If you do believe in God and the bible, you should talk to a Jehovah�s Witness about it. I have talked to people of other religions about the bible and their interpretation of it does not always agree with what the bible teaches (such as the idea of a trinity). Although the bible is open to interpretation because of it�s vagueness and many ambiguities, Jehovah�s Witnesses have the most accurate knowledge of the bible as their beliefs are based solely upon the words that are written in it. Talk to them...you just might learn something.

Posted by Sugarbean on Jun-02-2001 14:58:

Re: im a jehovah's witness

quote:
Originally posted by Dj Martijn
ok just thought id tell u all this...im a jehovahs witness. does anybody have anything against them?or is any1 else a jw in TA?

na i don have nothing against jehovahs witnesses...and i think the ones that do just don know what their all about or whatever..or don like the fact...well at least its like this around here..that they come to ya door and that stuff..*shrugs* dont matter to me whether your jehovah's witness...devil worshiper...devout catholic...were all here to learn and share our knowledge bout trance so i really don see the need for argument..although i do understand why you posted this...seeing that there is a stigma that society...american society that is...which is placed around being a jehovas witness...but here i don think you will be discriminated against if thats wut ya lookin to find out

Posted by Renegade on Jun-02-2001 17:21:

quote:
the earth is the perfect distance away from the sun...if it were 1% closer or farther away from the sun it would not be able to sustain life...

Yep I've heard this argument too rockster, a mormon (who are obviously quite different from jw's) tried to use it on me when he sequestered me at uni a couple of weeks ago.

The problem with this logic, for anyone who uses this argument or who has been subject to it, is that it assumes that the existence of humans (or life at least) predates the existence of the Earth. That is, that we are adapted to the Earth, not the other way around. If the Earth was 1% further away, then yes, obviously humans would never have been given the opportunity to come into existence at all. So then we are, essentially, a cosmic mistake? With absolutely no purpose behind our existence? Bascially, yes. But just because we're pointless accidents it doesn't mean we can't find meaning in life. In fact, as an atheist, I'm fairly certain that I can find more beauty in the world than any theist.

quote:
I just don�t know what to believe. I believe in life...I know it exists...

That's all you need to believe in to be happy. I recommend that you all pick up a copy of Albert Camus' The Outsider to recognise how, ultimately, it is only conscioussness and experience that make life worthwhile.

Assume for a second that god exists. First of all this world is reduced to nothing but a practice run for the afterlife. This reality is a pretty crap reality compared to what must be waiting in the afterlife, so what's stopping you from doing a few good deeds, getting on gods good side, killing yourself and then going to heaven? It means that you wouldn't have to put of with all the crap that god has dumped on humans here in this world, so what's the point of this life then, if all it really amounts to is determining your status in the afterlife?

Next, why did god create all the bad things in this world? A Christian would say that it was humans who created all the evil in the world, not god. But this just doesn't wash. God is supposedly omniscient, so that means that he should have known that by creating humans and by creating the world, that all this bad stuff would happen. I like it how Christians are so quick to thank god when something good happens, but whenever anything bad happens it's always humanity's fault, not god's. But really, if god created good, then it's common sense to think that he created evil. After all, he did create Lucifer didn't he? This is why, even if there was a god, I wouldn't worship him, I'd go to hell just to make a point. If going to heaven means that I have to kiss his arse and worship him for all the shit that he's put humanity through just to satisfy his pompous meglomanical desires, then I'd rather be in hell thanks very much.

Finally, how did jesus actually redeem mankind? Forgive me if I'm just being shallow-minded, but it seems to me like all Jesus did was get born, perform a few magic tricks and then die 33 years later? And I mean we could hardly say that the world has become a better place since his death can we? Wouldn't he have helped humanity much more by staying alive for the past two thousand years, using his supernatural powers to feed the starving and to clothe the homeless instead of sitting up in heaven twiddling his thumbs while all this goes on below him?

So for any Christians, there are a few questions that I would really like you to answer:

What is God?
Why do you think this God should care about each individual human being (above all of his other creations)?
If he loves us so much, why is there so much evil, and why does he condemn so many of us to an eternity in hell?
What do you hope to find in heaven anyway? Wouldn't you get bored eventually living for ever?
How do you know that your religion is true and that the others aren't (because it says so in the bible isn't a sufficient reason: it also says in the Q'uaran that Islam is the one true faith)?

And actually, on that last point, there's a quote (I forget who said it now) that sums up my position fairly well:

"I would argue, sir, that we are both atheists. I just believe in one less god than you do. When you understand why it is that you dismiss all the other gods, then you will understand why it is that I dismiss yours."

Sorry if it seems like I'm taking it out on anyone, but I've just come out of 6 years in an Anglican school, so I've had Christianity shoved down my throat for a very long time and it's starting to grow very thin on me.

So no offence intended to anyone who is offended by anything that I've said. But I'd still like you to try and answer some of the things that I've brought up, if not for my sake then for your own.

Posted by Narcotic Mind on Jun-02-2001 19:49:

I have had this argument with my friends so many times, i don't want to start explaining all the shit i have in mind again, especially not by writing it.
the only thing i can tell you now, is that i think that we shouldn't have this argument at all, we shouldn't understand why do we live, or how the world was created or what was before that, or what is god, or any of this un-answered questions, becuase we're not suppose to, there are some things that the humen mind just can't understand, i have so many theories, and i can create so many, and you will never know if they are true of false.
i think that each one of us should make the best of his life, and enjoy this time while he live, no bothering about what will be after or so, becuase it will eventually come anyways.

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