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-- you know what's ironic?
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Originally posted by electric_soul Foolishness is genderless, so they vote uninformed as most people do.

True, anybody can vote uninformed. But look statistically at where it occurs more often. I'm not implying any cause-and-effect relationship, I encourage the reader to figure that out for themselves.

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Examples? Man with 5 chicks: hero Woman with 5 guys: slut

Maybe in the past that was true. I'd say, in modern times, men are taught to consider themselves lucky to be able to get even one girl, and women are taught that they can have any guy they want.

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Same job: Man: $1500 Woman: $1000

Again... in the past.

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Marriage: Man: should have experience Woman: should be virgin

Please, where did you get this from? If we go by the religious, traditional definition of marriage, then both members are expected to be virgins (otherwise one of them has committed adultery!).

If we're going by the modern, uber-divorce-rate definition of marriage, then the whole thing is a sham anyway. No guy in his right mind would actually expect a decent-looking woman to be a virgin, because women fuck around.

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Making a move: Man: should approach a girl. That's his role. Woman: shouldn't approach a guy. Looks like a bitch or whatever. Should wait patiently.

Do you think that men created this expectation? Do you think that men want to have to make all the moves? You find me one guy who wouldn't be happy to have a woman approach him. This is what women impose on men by refusing to make the first move, not the other way around!!!

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Male predominance is still floating around.

I think you've misused the term "predominance" to mean "dominance", but in any case, this simply isn't true.

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Why they're "freeing" themselves as we speak IMO? Because most of women actually think, that reaching marriage virgins is "the right way", even if they don't do it. They think a girl with 5 guys is a slut, etc, etc.

Again, I'd be hard-pressed to find a large number of women in North America who still think this way. My friend told me that out of 30 girls in her dorm, only 6 are virgins, and of those, only 2 are virgins by choice.

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At the core of the occidental morality, women don't have the same freedom as man. And that plays a psychological role. I mean... dear god, take a look at the toys, girls get lil kitchen sets...

And here again, we see the dismissal of fundamental psychological differences between men and women as mere stereotypes. Forgetting about kitchen sets because that's ludicrous, what is wrong with the fact that girls get dolls and guys get race cars? Is it so hard to believe that this is just the way they are? If the guys didn't like those cars or the girls didn't like those dolls, I'm sure the parents would realize that in due time. But the point is, psychologically, women like to use their imagination more than guys. Guys want to tinker and smash things, girls play in a different way.

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Yeah, already told so. is crap

Way to dismiss everything I've said with one blanket contradiction. Your logic is where, exactly? Sorry, I couldn't find it.

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it's just natural that after thousands of year of oppresion (not able to make personal improvement, study, work, to decide, to even talk... argghh), some turned out to be a pain in the ass.

Again, I think you're making blanket assumptions. What is your basis for thinking that because women didn't work, it was because they couldn't work?

Did it ever occur to you that in order to seriously *PUSH* those women to work, society had to reduce its emphasis on family, which in turn has increased divorce rates and done other nasty things?

Did it ever occur to you that maybe men originally laughed at the idea of hiring a woman because no woman had applied to their organization in its 50 years of existence?

Again... don't assume cause from effect.

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On the other hand... imagine a post from some guy saying something like "women are all sluts, we should tie them and dispose of them at our will", most guys would at least smile while reading that.

I wouldn't smile, but if you're talking about some of Vivid Boy's wacky posts (for example), I might smile because I know it's a JOKE! The audience laughs when they see a guy in a movie trip on a banana peel and fall flat on his face, does that imply that the audience is inherently vicious and doesn't understand how painful that would really be?

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Well, i don't see a 50/50 percentage in any senate, i'm pretty sure more than 80% of astronauts are male, all important positions on anything are usually taken by men. And I strongly doubt that men are more suited for that positions. I don't think women are more suited either. I just think that logic says that if a country has 100 million ppl, with 50 mil. woman, and 50 mil. man.

Cause and effect, cause and effect...

Our engineering program has less than 20% women, I think. Take a look statistically at how many women apply to aeronautics compared to men. But then, look at the enrollment of women in fields like philosophy, literature, languages, women's studies! It shoots right up! The only scientific fields that women IN GENERAL (statistically) seem to take any interest in are biology and chemistry, and indeed we are starting to see A LOT of female doctors and chemists out there.

So it would seem to me that the statistics are quite consistent - the percentage of women in certain scientific (or political) fields actively reflects the number of women who actually pursue those fields.

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And there are 500 -dunno the amount of senators @ USA- senators. There should be rougly 50/50 men/women.

Why should there be 50/50?

I'm not even saying that the women aren't capable... maybe they just aren't interested? Most women I know aren't very confrontational, and politics is quite a confrontational field.

Do you know a lot of women that WANT to become senators when they grow up? If not, then what are you basing this "should" on?

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No, men subjugated women

No they didn't, feminists started causing shit and claiming that men subjugated women by undermining those women's lifestyles, dismissing them as "mere housewives" - jesus, what's wrong with that? Okay, a woman shouldn't have to be a housewife, duh, that's a no-brainer, but so what if she chooses to be? Why does society have to tell her that she's worthless for it?

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and when all started being questioned some social aspects were changed radically, that's called a crisis. A point of inflection. That's the usual: things go one way, something happens, a messy stage, then stabilizes, then it goes steady again.

But the first feminists like Gloria Steinem WERE the change. You'd expect society to have stabilized over 50 years later. Instead you see the opposite - higher divorce rates, higher unmarried rates, general angst and unhappiness in both men and women... it's not getting better, it's getting worse!

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I take you don't like changes (ie you're conservative. prove me wrong)

I thrive on change. In fact, I'm completely uncomfortable with routine.

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Yes, grab a book about psychology or two. They don't bite. Violence starts in your head.

Perhaps you should take your own advice. Also go to university and take a few psych course, because really, you can only learn so much from a few limited books.

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To make you punch me, I can either punch you, or just start talking s**t about you for hours and wait for you to blow up. Of course, there are more subtle ways, and some are even socially accepted. The result is the same: violence. Women were taught for centuries to bear with it, making them submisive.

Bear with what? Submissive to what? Again, let's see documented, factual evidence that actually shows cause and not just situation (that is to say connected evidence rather than circumstantial).

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Men have more cans that cants. Women have more cants that cans.

This sounds like some ancient proverb... can you at least give some examples that still hold true in today's society?

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PS: about the communism references... don't see the relation with this

That's because you're not reading what I'm asking you to read and doing research on the facts before you post your opinions. The links between feminism and communism are well-documented if you look for them (Gloria Steinem was a known communist with ties to the CIA).

Man, I'm getting tired of this... controversial topic I know, but I wish people would argue logically instead of just saying whatever happens to be on their mind.

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Originally posted by wienerschnitzel OH NO! i ment don't discuss my ireleveant tidbit about green and pirate.. please continue!

actually, i grew kinda tired.
Already had this kind of discussion with lots of people. Last time was with a friend's gf: after about 1 hour of talking she said "we're getting nowhere, you're feminist and i'm quite the opposite"

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Originally posted by wienerschnitzel ok digi- im throwing in the towel because you have alot more fact then i do, im mostly throwing out my opinions which is obvious and can't really be debated. So basically i just feel that when it comes to men and women, they should be treated based on qualification and potential.

Agreed.

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Alot of countries in the world forbid women to develop potential or give their qualification a chance. I have a friend from Baghdad who would love to tell you the same thing.

Now, some countries may very well do this, and you could be right in that area. I'm speaking mostly for North America and western Europe, although I have no idea what it's like in a place like Baghdad. Even though we live in a global economy, different cultures function as semi-isolated units.

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I just want to be clear that i don't think it is fair to give handouts or sympathy because of the past, but instead, if a woman or a man has the potential to do something then they should both have the same opportunity to develop that and apply it. I love men and i love women. The End.

Ditto.

I'm saying almost the same things you're saying. I seriously don't want people to misinterpret my statements into me putting down women, because it ain't what I'm doin'.

For you math/comp nerds:
Feminism != women. Feminism > equality.

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Originally posted by wienerschnitzel sorry digi, im still with electric soul on this one... he's taking the words right out of my mouth (without contridicting himself )

That's such a compliment for me, tnx.

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Originally posted by electric_soul i'm not saying you're on crack... I just love perl

Well at least we agree on one thing.

omg

let's keep it like this

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Originally posted by electric_soul omg let's keep it like this

Bahaha... g33ks unite!

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