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-- Israel Kills Sheikh Yassin (Leader of Hamas)
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| To the German population, Jews were different able able not able to think or act like the rest of the population, no they were viewed to be able to think and act better than the rest of the population |
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| Whatever it was, the Jews were sitll culturally different then the Germans, if that makes me agree with Hitler so be it. Its all a matter of balance. Do I think Arabs are different than Europeans? Yes |
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| Western culture is based on money, merit, liberity, freedom, and equality. Arab culture values honor, heredity, family, conservatisim, and faith. |
Woohoo! One less terrorist motherf*cker on earth!
Burn in hell Yassin!!! You parapelegic infidel!!!
[[[smoke]]]
*sigh* Georgie, I had high hopes for you when I was reading your original "tongue in cheek" comments... didn't realize how serious you were about them. Alright, let's do this thing...
quote: Originally posted by George Smiley
Beliefs like that really piss me off, and it is a belief that is pressured onto us by people with ulterior motives, in the Israeli case, justifying their actions against Arabs
It's interesting how you're suddenly representing this as a battle between a nation (Israel) and a culture/religion (Arabs). Do you see Israel attacking Egypt? Jordan? Any of the other millions of Arabs that surround them? No, it is simply Palestine, and this does not lend much support to your theory that Israel is trying to justify anything or needs to.
Of course Israel doesn't have a perfect track record when it comes to keeping civilian casualties low, but the one distinction we can make is that those casualties are often the result of poor planning/strategy and/or collateral damage, which is a far cry from actually bombing civilian targets with no military or strategic value whatsoever.
quote: Hitler used the same ploy against the Jews in Nazi Germany, summat I'm sure is very close to your heart? To the Germans, the Jews were viewed as being different and not able to think and act like the rest of the population. The only way they could be dealt with was...well, you know
Fallacy of Four Terms here, and I've started to notice that such syllogisms are common in your oversimplified arguments. You say, Group A was made a scapegoat by Group B, and Group C was made a scapegoat by Group D, therefore Group A is equal or analogous in some way to Group C. It is clearly not logical to equate two entities simply on the basis that they share a common property, and it's hard to ignore the glaring omissions you've made in your argument: namely, that the Nazis were committing pure genocide, not just on the Jews but also on (for example) the Poles, and not one of these victim groups ever committed any significant acts of retaliation, let alone terrorism. They simply hid or ran.
quote: Its just ignorant stereotyping and it simply amounts to racism
One could say the same thing about your conclusion that Israel is trying to justify some sort of hate toward Arabs.
quote: Yes, to damn fucking right I think Arabs are just like me. I happen to know many Muslims, and have had the pleasure of meeting a great deal more, and guess what? Every last one of em WAS exactly the same as me
I have many Muslim friends too. We've got a large proportion of those in my EE program and I'd say I probably have more Arab or Muslim friends than "white" (I use the term loosely) ones. They're great people, and as far as I know, they think similar to the way I do.
But I live in Canada, not Israel or Palestine, and you seem to be neglecting the effect of society on these people's minds. When you are taught in classrooms to resent and to hate and live in an atmosphere of constant oppression and fear, you get a little wacky. Why don't you read some of the books people wrote about World War II to get a perspective on how people's minds work in those situations... it's pretty crazy, both in the figurative and literal sense.
quote: What makes you think that our societies and culture is any different to that of Islam? Is America not full of fundamentalist Christians? What about the settlers in the occupied terrirtories on their quest for the Greater Israel...religious fundamentalists. Whats makes them any different to al-Qaida? None of them respect any other cultures and would almost definately support the killing of anyone they deemed 'infidels' or 'kafir' or 'gentiles' if they tried to exhert an influence over the land they claimed was theirs. Fortunatley, their veiws represent a minority (despite the amount of power they may have in the governemnts of Israel or America) and that, I suspect, is exactly the same for any Islamic state
Islamic religion in and of itself does not necessarily lend itself to hate. But we are talking about a nationalistic and cultural issue, not a religious one. And above all else, we are not judging their religion or even their culture, but merely the actions that culture seems to be disposed to carrying out. If Fundamentalist Christians are killing people (as were some of the anti-abortionists who went around killing doctors, for example), then they should be punished. If extremist Jewish settlers are killing Palestinian civilians without provocation, then they should be punished too. And if Palestinian militants are rallying scores of men, women, and children to blow up civilian targets in an adjacent state, they should damn well be punished too.
quote: How could they have addressed it in their system? A legitimate concern simply means their actions could be seen as being justified.
Any action can be justified if it's put into the right perspective. If you ever get the opportunity to listen to a paranoid schizophrenic (and I am talking about a literal diagnosis of this, not just a random "psycho"), you should do it, because you'll come to understand that in their minds, what they see and think makes perfect sense. It is totally logical and totally sound. And yet, we call them legally insane. So there is a precedent for saying that just because a person can justify his/her actions does not mean that they are justified in the "absolute" sense - and I am not going to submit to any theories of moral relativism and concede that whether an act is justified only depends on the morality of whoever commits it, because that school of thought is complete bullshit, pardon my French.
quote: The American revolution - merely terrorism. The Irish rebellion - merely terrorism. The Palestinian rebellion - merely terrorism. But nobody can say that these three groups did not have a legitimate concern due to the fact that they are oppressed...
I noticed you never addressed Arbiter's post, and I think he hit the nail on the head here. The simple fact of the matter is that it doesn't matter how legitimate their concerns are or aren't - there is just no negotiating with terrorism because appeasement is encouragement, and terrorist groups absolutely must be dealt with swiftly and harshly in that regard.
The Irish rebellion and the American revolution occurred in a particularly different sequence of events from what the Palestinians call the intifada. Again, you are equating things merely on the basis that they share a common property, but leaving out many important details (and now is not the time to get into a whole history of the American revolution - I'm sure most of the Americans in this thread are intelligent enough to understand the difference between that and the current situation surrounding Palestine).
quote: What an idiotic statement to make. And I assume that applies across the board? To the Palestinians who will avenge the death of the spiritual leader of Hamas?
Avenge the death, or don't avenge it... they will continue to do exactly the same thing as they've always done. The only difference is that now, people like you will *say* that it was because of his death and that they are avenging it, whereas many of us who are not so short-sighted will realize that this is not any significant change from what was already taking place.
quote: Do us a favour mate, next time you post, leave the silly simplistic anologies out and focus on the issues instead why dont you?
Same to you, you seem to be a fan of syllogisms but let me assure you that they are considered to be fallacious. I'd like to see you address Arbiter's reply to you - you have yet to do that, is there a particular reason you're icing the tunnel-vision cake with sticky stubbornness?
Also, I'm trying to avoid delving too deeply into THIS can of worms...
quote: Originally posted by George Smiley
The only difference between the West and the rest of the world is wealth and science. If the rest of the world were exposed to the same levels of wealth and science (and what comes out of that) then they would act exactly the same as us
...but really that is one of the most ignorant schools of thought out there. Other parts of the world are not ready for those levels of wealth and science - we all follow a cycle of natural development, and if we try to skip stages - just as if a child tries to "grow up too fast" - things start to go haywire. You are totally, totally confusing cause and effect; the level of wealth and science is a byproduct of the society, not a contributing factor to its development.
We should all be like the futuristic sci-fi societies like Star Trek. Remember the Prime Directive: never, ever interfere with the development of another society.
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| Originally posted by DigiNut Avenge the death, or don't avenge it... they will continue to do exactly the same thing as they've always done. The only difference is that now, people like you will *say* that it was because of his death and that they are avenging it, whereas many of us who are not so short-sighted will realize that this is not any significant change from what was already taking place. |
CUT OFF HIS HEAD
They have opened the gates of Hell. Sharon has cut off all hope for peace between Palestinians and Israelis. When Yassin was killed, HOPE was killed along with him. The only hope left for me is that they cut Sharon's head off.
Re: CUT OFF HIS HEAD
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| Originally posted by Palestinian They have opened the gates of Hell. Sharon has cut off all hope for peace between Palestinians and Israelis. When Yassin was killed, HOPE was killed along with him. The only hope left for me is that they cut Sharon's head off. |
Tranceaholic, it's not Yassin that's gonna come up with a solution for the Palestinian-Israeli conflict. Hope was killed means Israel's action is just gonna discourage Palestinians to hope for a solution to the crisis - not as in hope died because they killed a man who was gonna solve the issue. If he had died from a heart attack, hope wouldnt have died because he died of a natural cause and the palestinians wouldnt have lost hope since israel wouldnt have had anythin 2 do with the guy's death....
My point is: they didnt lose hope cuz the guy died but cuz Israelis killed him...
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| Originally posted by Deejiuana Tranceaholic, it's not Yassin that's gonna come up with a solution for the Palestinian-Israeli conflict. Hope was killed means Israel's action is just gonna discourage Palestinians to hope for a solution to the crisis - not as in hope died because they killed a man who was gonna solve the issue. If he had died from a heart attack, hope wouldnt have died because he died of a natural cause and the palestinians wouldnt have lost hope since israel wouldnt have had anythin 2 do with the guy's death.... My point is: they didnt lose hope cuz the guy died but cuz Israelis killed him... |
no, no, u dont get it, the hope was that there somehow. They WERE trying to work things out (somehow). And i repeat: when palestinians c a dead man killed on his wheelchair by 3 or 4 or i dunno how many missiles, they lose hope and go like: well, damn, if they killed that guy, why would we have hope? they killed him, they can kill any1 else....no more hope...it's not that guy was givin them any hope, nope, it's just that they were hopin for some resolution, but when they see such incidents, they lose hope...
hmm I thought it was because the Palestinians had no "hope" that they became suicide bombers?
If hope was dead before Yassin, how can you kill it again?
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| Originally posted by Yoepus hmm I thought it was because the Palestinians had no "hope" that they became suicide bombers? If hope was dead before Yassin, how can you kill it again? |
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| Originally posted by mps242 No no... You misunderstand... By hope he means "palestinians had hope that they would push Israelis into the sea," now without their spiritual leader they have no hope of that, and will accordingly blow themselves up like lemmings running into the sea... |
Re: CUT OFF HIS HEAD
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| Originally posted by Sand Leaper Just something I've been pondering on: How is it that you all can be so sure that Hamas won't escalate their terrorist activities after Yassin's death? What basis do you have for drawing this conclusion? I'm just curious. A lot of the people in here do not seem to worry about Hamas taking further actions after the murder, yet I've not seen anything posted in here to strengthen the theory that the terrorist activities will remain on the same level (Feel free to provide the links to threads where you have done so earlier though). How can we be so sure about Hamas' terrorist capabilities not being greater than what we've already seen? Is it just because you assume that if they had had terrorist methods with much greater impact they would already have used it by now, or? |
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| Originally posted by Palestinian They have opened the gates of Hell. Sharon has cut off all hope for peace between Palestinians and Israelis. When Yassin was killed, HOPE was killed along with him. The only hope left for me is that they cut Sharon's head off. |
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| Originally posted by dj_alfi goddamn... how powerful arent the Israelis? They had to launch 4 freakin' missiles into the street to assasinate a man who just came out of his mosque or whatever, after he had been praying to his god, wich in fact IS the SAME god as the Jews believe in. Its basically the same religion, only different is how theythink of the son of God, and who it is, when he will come, and etc. |
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I think this is THE stupidest move they have ever done, since they by doing this will only be hated more and more, and have less and less a chance of living in peace anywhere. Just give it five to ten years keeping up with this terrorism, wich it is, the Israelis terrorize the Palestinians with heavy weaponary, while the Palestinians are not sponsored up theyr asses by the US, so they will have to use crappy bombs theyve made themselves. |
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I think Sharon is a powerabuser, just like Mr George Fucking Bush. I seriously cant find an argument for why I should support the Israelis, when they cant say "thank you for letting us live in your counrty, kind palestinians" and just live in peace and harmony, like they did in hundreds of years before the UN interferred. |
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All i have to say is, no wonder why "jew" is considered a swear word! |
Re: Re: CUT OFF HIS HEAD
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| Originally posted by DigiNut Funny how Israel didn't react that way when Rabin was killed. Maybe they should have? |
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| Diginut: I'd like to see you address Arbiter's reply to you - you have yet to do that, is there a particular reason you're icing the tunnel-vision cake with sticky stubbornness? |
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| We need to send a strong and united message that any political group which resorts to terrorism will not have their concerns addressed, regardless of the legitimacy of those concerns, until such a time as they cease to resort to such an illegitimate means of obtaining political redress. |
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| Not only that, but as I already stressed, other groups may perceive the success that those groups attained as a product of the terrorist methodology, and begin to employ similar tactics themselves |
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| However, if we do not wish for it to further perpetuate itself, we cannot, under any circumstances, allow it to appear to be a successful ideology. |
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| However, I do not believe appeasement can be a valid or useful part of such a strategy. |
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| It's interesting how you're suddenly representing this as a battle between a nation (Israel) and a culture/religion (Arabs). Do you see Israel attacking Egypt? Jordan? Any of the other millions of Arabs that surround them? No, it is simply Palestine |
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| the Nazis were committing pure genocide, not just on the Jews but also on (for example) the Poles, and not one of these victim groups ever committed any significant acts of retaliation, let alone terrorism |
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| One could say the same thing about your conclusion that Israel is trying to justify some sort of hate toward Arabs. |
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| And above all else, we are not judging their religion or even their culture, but merely the actions that culture seems to be disposed to carrying out |
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| Funny how Israel didn't react that way when Rabin was killed. Maybe they should have? |
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| Originally posted by George Smiley Does that message apply to sovereign states or just those groups that do not belong to the state aparatus? |
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Look at any point in history and you will see that no matter how violent and ruthless your reactions to terrorists, rebels or revolutionaries are (and trust me, in the old days they were fucking ruthless) terrorism will always remain wherever people feel oppressed or threatened. Appeasment or not, nothing would change that ever. |
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Oh but it is. The Russian, French and American revolutions prove this beyond doubt. Add to that the fact that almost all nations have been founded on violence at some stage in history. |
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| But if you look through history, if the oppressors stopped oppressing, there would be no need for the oppressed to turn to violence. Now I'm not saying that is the case of al-Qaida (and I dont think it is anyway) but you are talking about terrorism generally, and therefore, appeasment should certainly be considered, not all of the time, but certainly where there are clear cases of oppression of a people (Palestine for example) |
Re: CUT OFF HIS HEAD
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| Originally posted by DigiNut ...but really that is one of the most ignorant schools of thought out there. Other parts of the world are not ready for those levels of wealth and science - we all follow a cycle of natural development, and if we try to skip stages - just as if a child tries to "grow up too fast" - things start to go haywire. You are totally, totally confusing cause and effect; the level of wealth and science is a byproduct of the society, not a contributing factor to its development. We should all be like the futuristic sci-fi societies like Star Trek. Remember the Prime Directive:never, ever interfere with the development of another society. |
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| Originally posted by Palestinian They have opened the gates of Hell. Sharon has cut off all hope for peace between Palestinians and Israelis. When Yassin was killed, HOPE was killed along with him. The only hope left for me is that they cut Sharon's head off. |
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| Originally posted by Palestinian Do you have any idea who Rabbi Meir Kahane is???? He is a terrorist as labelled by ISRAEL and the UNITED STATES. Kahane Chai has been labelled a TERRORIST organization by the US and ISRAEL ITSELF. Kahane Chai assassinated Yitzak Rabin and massacred the Muslim worshipers in a Hebron mosque in 1994. Kahane Chai has been outlawed by Israel. You are worse than your own state! You make me sick! |
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| Not all violence can be accurately classified as terrorism. I'm not aware of any tactics used by Russian, French, or American revolutionaries to coerce any political body by systematic attacks directed specifically at unsuspecting civilians. It is these tactics which form the essence of terrorism. |
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| You seem to be missing the point that appeasing a particular group will not only have an effect on the behavior of that group, but other groups as well who may or may not have legitimate concerns |
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| Originally posted by George Smiley Appeasing or not appeasing has had no effect on terrorism as far as I can see. If there is a cause, just or not, that certain groups of people feel the need to figh tfor then they will, no matter what the consequences are for them or their people. |
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| Originally posted by mps242 Actually we've seen that the US withdrawl from Beirut in the 1980's was one of Osama's great inspirations... |
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| Originally posted by mps242 Actually we've seen that the US withdrawl from Beirut in the 1980's was one of Osama's great inspirations... |
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But Hezbollah's leader, Sheikh Hasan Nasrallah, who we met in Beirut, insists that his group no longer poses a threat to the U.S. Unlike the leadership of al-Qaeda, he isn't hiding from anyone. You may never have heard of Nasrallah before, but he is a hugely popular figure, not just in the region but also among Arabs living in the West � I believe the Americans are just saying what the Israelis want them to say. I consider this to be an Israeli accusation coming out of an American mouth and nothing more,� says Nasrallah. When he became its leader ten years ago, Nasrallah turned Hezbollah into a formidable fighting force. Few people know more about him than journalist Nick Blanford, who has covered Lebanon for eight years and is now writing a book about Hezbollah and Sheikh Nasrallah. �People adore him. I mean, I talked to some Hezbollah fighters that speak of him almost as they would a wife or a mother,� says Blanford. �They think of him before they go to sleep at night, that he's always in their thoughts, so he has this tremendous power over the rank and file.� The militant Islamic group has enough power and trained skilled commandos who are specialized in attacking Israeli forces that have occupied southern Lebanon for 22 years. Their most effective weapon: remote-controlled roadside bombs that were detonated when Israeli patrols passed by -- as in the 1983 attack in southern Lebanon. All told, Israel lost more than 900 soldiers in Lebanon. In May 2000, the Israeli Army withdrew. What did Israel's withdrawal do for Hezbollah in the eyes of the Arab world? �Well, there's enormous boost for Hezbollah,� says Blanford. �I mean, this was a small Arab organization that had defeated the mightiest military force the Middle East has ever seen.� With the Israelis out of Lebanon, Nasrallah encouraged, and assisted, the Palestinian uprising against Israel. He has acknowledged sending secret agents carrying weapons to the West Bank, where he is considered a hero. Some kids in the Gaza Strip even dress like him, down to the beard and the glasses. At one event, a boy playing Nasrallah was flanked by one child who played a security guard, and another child dressed as a suicide bomber. In Lebanon, where Hezbollah runs a network of schools and hospitals and participates in local elections, Nasrallah, a Muslim, is a hero even to the country's Christian President, Emile Lahoud. �For us Lebanese, and I can tell you a majority of Lebanese, Hezbollah is a national resistance movement,� says Lahoud. �If it wasn't for them, we couldn't have liberated our land. And because of that, we have big esteem for the Hezbollah movement.� President Lahoud has such high esteem for Hezbollah, he's ceded control of the border with Israel to them -- a border where Hezbollah and Israeli soldiers now confront each other just a few yards apart. This side is controlled by Hezbollah. The other side is controlled by Israel. Hezbollah has already fired rockets across the border, and U.S. officials believe that in the past two years they've been stockpiling rockets in this area hidden in caves and underground bunkers -- higher quality Iranian rockets that could reach Haifa about fifty miles away. Openly calling for terrorism against Israel, Nasrallah is also urging on suicide operations. "In Palestine, these operations are the only way to root out the Zionists," says Nasrallah during a speech. http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003...ain550000.shtml |
Israel's destruction and colonization of Palestinian land destroyed hope in many Palestinians. Sheikh Yassin provided a counter to that. Although he murdered many Israelis, he also fed and clothed many Palestinians. He gave them hope. This is a fact that cannot be denied. He was there when people had little hope left. He gave them a boost. After all, he preached independence to them. You can say he preached hate, destruction of the Jews etc etc, but he also preached independence. Assassinating Yassin killed this hope for freedom. Only blood can come out of this.
As for Sharon, he's a war criminal, responsible for numerous massacres since his early career in Unit 101. I do hope they cut his head off. That's just my personal desire for vengeance against the fat pig.
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| Originally posted by Palestinian Israel's destruction and colonization of Palestinian land destroyed hope in many Palestinians. Sheikh Yassin provided a counter to that. Although he murdered many Israelis, he also fed and clothed many Palestinians. He gave them hope. This is a fact that cannot be denied. He was there when people had little hope left. He gave them a boost. After all, he preached independence to them. You can say he preached hate, destruction of the Jews etc etc, but he also preached independence. Assassinating Yassin killed this hope for freedom. Only blood can come out of this. |
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| As for Sharon, he's a war criminal, responsible for numerous massacres since his early career in Unit 101. I do hope they cut his head off. That's just my personal desire for vengeance against the fat pig. |
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