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quote:

Originally posted by trunks1022 which then leads to all these other questions like... what about us helping the afghans in the mid 80s, or what about us being there for the first gulf war... what if those never happened?

Helping the Afghans in the 1980's helped against the spread of communism.It was a necessary evil at the time.There's also the Iran Hostage Situation,The Pan Am Lockerby Bombing,The bombing of innocent American soldiers' barracks in Lebannon as well as The Bombing of the Embassies in Africa by Al Qaeda.There is a deep seeded hatred for the United States in some parts of the Middle East which is undeniable.It results from the fact that we stand by their sworn enemy which is Israel.Basicly they've had a grudge almost since the beginning of time and anyone who supports Israel is just as guilty in their view.The militant religious fanatics in the Middle East believe that it is their sacred duty to kill americans which they believe to be evil because of our lifestyle.They hate the fact that women have power in society.They hate the fact that people have freedom to choose whatever religion they want.They hate every freedom that the United States has.They don't hesitate when they have a chance to kill an American.The Fact still remains that Saddam Hussein is out of power.This is the same man who used chemical weapons against the Kurds in Northern Iraq too.I guess its ok to have those kinds of people in power in the middle east an already rediculously unstable region.


Anyone who blames Bush for this is shortsided and refuses to look at the big picture.This issue has been deep routed for several decades.911 would have happend regardless of who was president.Saddam was a major threat to the region and he is now behind bars.Look at the facts and read a history book before you make a judgement on a situation.Bush is a minor figure in this never ending story.The next president whoever it might be will surely have to deal with these issues.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-sr...llen.htm?nav=lb

I also remember seeing pics of Innocent Kurds that were nerve gased to death in Northern Iraq by Saddam's forces.I also remember Iraqi Scud missiles raining down on Saudi Arabian and Israeli cities with innocent civilians praying to god that the missiles would be shot down by AMERICAN PATRIOT MISSILES and also prayed that Saddam wasn't firing chemical weapons against them.

quote:

Originally posted by GUBostonDubs After reading more of this thread I stumbled onto this post and I must say you are totally wrong.You are of the "This is all George Bush's fault mentality".Saddam Hussein was the King of stalling and dancing around policies the UN established not just the United States.The Gulf War was over since 1991 and Saddam had over 10 years to comply with UN regulations.Bush actually had the guts to say fuck the UN and actually hold Saddam accountable for not complying with International Law.Let me be clear in saying that I am not a George Bush advocate myself.Clinton was not doing shit about anything.His charisma landed him blowjobs in the oval office but he really was not strong at all in dealing with Saddam Hussein.Clinton actually had several small campaigns against iraq for not complying with UN resolutions but they basicly pin pricks and Saddam just sat in his Presidential palaces and laughed at us.Also North Korea was building up its nuclear capabilities behind Clinton's back anyways.More importantly,the Clinton administration did basicly nothing against Al Kaieda after the two Embassy bombings that killed Hundreds of U.S. Citizens and the fact that Al Kaieda was building up its capabilities and became an outspoken opponent of the United States.Clinton wouldn't have done shit.

Well why did that ****** Colin Powell go on TV saying that there was Weapons of Mass Distrucation, the UN Inspecters went and they found nothing Iraq ,I mean a few empty trucks and just some soil samples but nothing major, even today nothing is found. Plus your forgoting how Bush was saying that Saddam Hussian had ties with AL-Queda which were totally bogus facts. If you saw one of Osama Bin Ladenss tapes that aired that said "Saddam Hussian is Devil and should be excuted. I guess you seem to be bahsng on Clinton, remember he had Peace talks going on with Israel and Palestine in 2000 going on. Hmmmm maybe there would not be any crazyness going if som idoit was elected and saying "I am very anti CLINTON"

Plus the economy was still great during his years and people had jobs.Plus Bush had ties to Enron who stoled peoples money left some really pooR. So don't come here attacking Clinton because Bush is also just as guilty.

The murder of Nick Berg was another reminder of the true nature of Islamic extremists. These people will kill anyone that does not agree with their goal of imposing fundamentalist Islamic rule everywhere. There should be no illusion about negotiating with al Qaeda. I hope these savages are wiped out from the face of the earth.

GUBostonDubs-
I respect your opinions and points of view. However, I feel compelled to disagree with many of them. First of all, Islamic fundamentalists do not oppose the US because of the status of women or our lifestyle. They oppose the US, and most of the West for that fact, because they feel that they are being persecuted. I urge you to reread your history. Ever since the Crusades of the Middle Ages, the Arabs have been attacked and decimated by Western forces. They were living in their regions peaceful until huge European armies began to sweep through those regions pillaging villages and raping women. I am not by any means defending the actions of terrorist groups or fundamentalists. Being a Christian Lebanese person, I have a deep dislike for fundamentalists and terrorists because it was those same people that started the war in my country that lasted for 20 years, and we're still trying to recover from today. I just wanted to try and give you a little more insight on the mentality of these assholes and how they think.

quote:

Originally posted by das_Mario The murder of Nick Berg was another reminder of the true nature of Islamic extremists. These people will kill anyone that does not agree with their goal of imposing fundamentalist Islamic rule everywhere. There should be no illusion about negotiating with al Qaeda. I hope these savages are wiped out from the face of the earth.

Put me over there with a fucking machine gun.....please. No better yet.....id like to see those punk ass bastards fight us old school style.......no weapons.....fist to fist.

You guys should see the nuts Bush is appointing to our Federal courts.


http://www.independentjudiciary.com...fm?NomineeID=46

quote:

William H. Pryor, Jr. Nominated to: Court of Appeals, 11th Circuit Status of nomination: Nominated 4/09/03; Hearing 06/11/03 Given a recess appointment by President Bush to the Eleventh Circuit, 2/20/04 Voted out of Committee on 07/23/2003 There has been two failed cloture vote: July 31, 2003 and November 6, 2003 Pryor's Record Reproductive Choice. Pryor has been extremely hostile to a woman's constitutional right to reproductive choice. Pryor has said: "I will never forget January 22, 1973, the day seven members of our highest court ripped the Constitution and ripped out the life of millions of unborn children."5 Pryor has called Roe v. Wade "the worst abomination of constitutional law in our history."6 Pryor says he agrees with Justice Scalia that "the Constitution says nothing about a right to abortion."7 Dismantling Civil Rights. Pryor has been one of the leading proponents of reviving states' rights at the expense of federal civil rights protections. Under Pryor's leadership, Alabama was the only state to challenge the constitutionality of a provision of the Violence Against Women Act (United States v. Morrison).8 Pryor also argued that the Supreme Court should cut back on the protections of the Age Discrimination in Employment Act, the Civil Rights Act of 1964, the Americans with Disabilities Act, the Family and Medical Leave Act, 9and the Clean Water Act. Voting Rights. Pryor has urged Congress to consider getting rid of a key provision of the Voting Rights Act, which protects the right to vote for African-Americans. While testifying before a Congressional Committee, Pryor urged the Committee to "consider seriously...the repeal or amendment of Section 5 of the Voting Rights Act, which [he labeled an] affront to federalism and an expansive burden that has far outlived its usefulness."10 Rights of Gays and Lesbians. During his tenure as Alabama Attorney General, Pryor has taken a number of actions hostile to the rights of gays and lesbians. In 1995, as a Deputy Attorney General, Pryor and then-Attorney General Jeff Sessions joined an amicus brief in support of the state of Colorado's defense of a voter initiative that prohibited local governments from enacting laws protecting gays and lesbians from discrimination (Romer v. Evans).11 Explaining why his office felt compelled to join the brief, Pryor stated: "The attorney general of Alabama felt strongly that we don't need to be finding new rights in our Constitution [because] we've done enough of that in recent years."12 In 2002, Pryor filed an anti-gay brief in Lawrence v. Texas on behalf of Alabama urging the Supreme Court to uphold Texas' law banning same-sex sodomy. Pryor argued that a "constitutional right that protects `the choice of one's partner' and `whether and how to connect sexually' must logically extend to activities like prostitution, adultery, necrophilia, bestiality, possession of child pornography, and even incest and pedophilia."13 Separation of Church and State. Pryor has demonstrated a general lack of respect for the constitutional wall separating church and state. For example, Pryor has vigorously defended the display of the Ten Commandments in state courthouses. Pryor has also defended a state judge's sponsorship of Christian prayers before jury assemblies.14 In 1997, Pryor, along with the Christian Coalition's Ralph Reed, attended a "Save the Commandments" rally in Montgomery, Alabama where he stated: "God has chosen, through his son Jesus Christ, this time and this place for all Christians...to save our country and save our courts."15 Cruel and Unusual Punishment. Over the course of his career in the Attorney General's office, Pryor has been a vocal opponent of the rights of criminal defendants. In 1995, Governor Fob James revived the practice of chaining unruly prisoners to hitching posts.16 Inmate Larry Hope had been handcuffed to a hitching post on several occasions, and denied access to water and the bathroom.17 Pryor vigorously defended the actions of the prison officials.18 The Supreme Court rejected Pryor's argument: "Hope was treated in a way antithetical to human dignity -- he was hitched to a post for an extended period of time in a position that was painful and under circumstances that were both degrading and dangerous. The obvious cruelty of the practice should have put the guards on notice that they were violating the inmate's constitutional rights."19 Pryor also argued that states' execution of mentally retarded inmates did not violate the U.S. Constitution.20 The U.S. Supreme Court, in Atkins v. Virginia, again rejected Pryor's argument, and prohibited all states from executing the mentally retarded.

I saw the video thanks to a link in COR.

Unbelievably gruesome, savage, inhuman. Ugh.

I hope we get those fuckwads and cap 'em.

I think we should cage them up with some tigers and shit......now that would teach them a lesson or two.

quote:

Originally posted by vtec junkie I think we should cage them up with some tigers and shit......now that would teach them a lesson or two.

Let's make it REAL interesting. Let's starve the tigers for one day, THEN put them in. That should do the trick.

you have to remember that we're not savages like they are tho - thats what makes us different than them. we bring justice to those of us who commit crimes, they celebrate it.

quote:

Originally posted by PVD_S11DJ you have to remember that we're not savages like they are tho - thats what makes us different than them. we bring justice to those of us who commit crimes, they celebrate it.

Point very well made and taken....

But sometimes you have to fight fire with fire....

An eye for an eye......etc etc.

quote:

Originally posted by DarkAngel Let's make it REAL interesting. Let's starve the tigers for one day, THEN put them in. That should do the trick.

Roman Empire style!!! Just like Gladiator except they wount have weapons or shields.

quote:

Originally posted by vtec junkie Roman Empire style!!! Just like Gladiator except they wount have weapons or shields.

Exactly. We give the scum the same chance that poor Berg kid had.

No chance.



No disrespect towards him or his family, of course.

quote:

Originally posted by GUBostonDubs After reading more of this thread I stumbled onto this post and I must say you are totally wrong.You are of the "This is all George Bush's fault mentality".Saddam Hussein was the King of stalling and dancing around policies the UN established not just the United States.The Gulf War was over since 1991 and Saddam had over 10 years to comply with UN regulations.Bush actually had the guts to say fuck the UN and actually hold Saddam accountable for not complying with International Law.Let me be clear in saying that I am not a George Bush advocate myself.Clinton was not doing shit about anything.His charisma landed him blowjobs in the oval office but he really was not strong at all in dealing with Saddam Hussein.Clinton actually had several small campaigns against iraq for not complying with UN resolutions but they basicly pin pricks and Saddam just sat in his Presidential palaces and laughed at us.Also North Korea was building up its nuclear capabilities behind Clinton's back anyways.More importantly,the Clinton administration did basicly nothing against Al Kaieda after the two Embassy bombings that killed Hundreds of U.S. Citizens and the fact that Al Kaieda was building up its capabilities and became an outspoken opponent of the United States.Clinton wouldn't have done shit.

all i have to say is read richard clarke's book "Against All Enemies". i think u'll find that it disputes basically everything u just mentioned. and don't say it's anti-Republican, self-serving fodder, because he criticizes clinton too.

quote:

Originally posted by DarkAngel Exactly. We give the scum the same chance that poor Berg kid had. No chance. No disrespect towards him or his family, of course.

all sounds good in theory,,but how will it affect the next US hostage..they already killed nick berg as revenge for the way iraqui prisoners are getting treated by the allies..however,personally id make them eat their own cocks and hammer wooden fence posts up their arses..humiliation is the key,,plus you need a doctor there with you to make sure they remain alive throughout..

here's a VERY interesting link regarding the whole Berg crap i stumbled across. i am the ultimate skeptic, so you know what i think of this:









BERG













.

quote:

Originally posted by PVD_S11DJ you have to remember that we're not savages like they are tho - thats what makes us different than them. we bring justice to those of us who commit crimes, they celebrate it.

I used to believe that too.


http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/16/i...ast/16ABUS.html

quote:

Rumsfeld and Aide Backed Harsh Tactics, Article Says By DAVID JOHNSTONand TIM GOLDEN Published: May 16, 2004 WASHINGTON, May 15 � Secretary of Defense Donald H. Rumsfeld and one of his top aides authorized the expansion of a secret program that had permitted harsh interrogations of detained members of Al Qaeda, allowing these methods to be used against prisoners at the Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq, according to an article in The New Yorker. Mr. Hersh's account, to be published in the May 24 issue of the magazine, said that the expansion of the "special access program" allowed authorities in charge of Abu Ghraib to engage in degrading and sexually humiliating practices. It was posted on Saturday on The New Yorker's Web site. snip "According to interviews with several past and present American intelligence officials," Mr. Hersh wrote, "the Pentagon's operation, known inside the intelligence community by several code words, including Copper Green, encouraged physical coercion and sexual humiliation of Iraqi prisoners in an effort to generate more intelligence about the growing insurgency in Iraq." snip The article suggested that Mr. Rumsfeld and Mr. Cambone had, in effect, shifted the blame for the abuses away from top civilians at the Pentagon to lower-level military police guards who are facing disciplinary proceedings in military courts.

http://newyorker.com/fact/content/?040524fa_fact

quote:

THE GRAY ZONE by SEYMOUR M. HERSH How a secret Pentagon program came to Abu Ghraib. Issue of 2004-05-24 Posted 2004-05-15 The roots of the Abu Ghraib prison scandal lie not in the criminal inclinations of a few Army reservists but in a decision, approved last year by Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, to expand a highly secret operation, which had been focussed on the hunt for Al Qaeda, to the interrogation of prisoners in Iraq. Rumsfeld�s decision embittered the American intelligence community, damaged the effectiveness of �lite combat units, and hurt America�s prospects in the war on terror. According to interviews with several past and present American intelligence officials, the Pentagon�s operation, known inside the intelligence community by several code words, including Copper Green, encouraged physical coercion and sexual humiliation of Iraqi prisoners in an effort to generate more intelligence about the growing insurgency in Iraq. A senior C.I.A. official, in confirming the details of this account last week, said that the operation stemmed from Rumsfeld�s long-standing desire to wrest control of America�s clandestine and paramilitary operations from the C.I.A. Rumsfeld, during appearances last week before Congress to testify about Abu Ghraib, was precluded by law from explicitly mentioning highly secret matters in an unclassified session. But he conveyed the message that he was telling the public all that he knew about the story. He said, �Any suggestion that there is not a full, deep awareness of what has happened, and the damage it has done, I think, would be a misunderstanding.� The senior C.I.A. official, asked about Rumsfeld�s testimony and that of Stephen Cambone, his Under-Secretary for Intelligence, said, �Some people think you can b******t anyone.� The Abu Ghraib story began, in a sense, just weeks after the September 11, 2001, attacks, with the American bombing of Afghanistan. Almost from the start, the Administration�s search for Al Qaeda members in the war zone, and its worldwide search for terrorists, came up against major command-and-control problems. For example, combat forces that had Al Qaeda targets in sight had to obtain legal clearance before firing on them. On October 7th, the night the bombing began, an unmanned Predator aircraft tracked an automobile convoy that, American intelligence believed, contained Mullah Muhammad Omar, the Taliban leader. A lawyer on duty at the United States Central Command headquarters, in Tampa, Florida, refused to authorize a strike. By the time an attack was approved, the target was out of reach. Rumsfeld was apoplectic over what he saw as a self-defeating hesitation to attack that was due to political correctness. One officer described him to me that fall as �kicking a lot of glass and breaking doors.� In November, the Washington Post reported that, as many as ten times since early October, Air Force pilots believed they�d had senior Al Qaeda and Taliban members in their sights but had been unable to act in time because of legalistic hurdles. There were similar problems throughout the world, as American Special Forces units seeking to move quickly against suspected terrorist cells were compelled to get prior approval from local American ambassadors and brief their superiors in the chain of command. snip << �Rumsfeld�s goal was to get a capability in place to take on a high-value target�a standup group to hit quickly,� a former high-level intelligence official told me. �He got all the agencies together�the C.I.A. and the N.S.A.�to get pre-approval in place. Just say the code word and go.� The operation had across-the-board approval from Rumsfeld and from Condoleezza Rice, the national-security adviser. President Bush was informed of the existence of the program, the former intelligence official said. >> -more_

These guys at the top like Rummy need to be tried for war crimes, but it will probably never happen.

This is why the neocons subverted the INt. Criminal Court, for they knew beforehand that they were going to invade Iraq.

quote:

Originally posted by steven neil all sounds good in theory,,but how will it affect the next US hostage..they already killed nick berg as revenge for the way iraqui prisoners are getting treated by the allies..however,personally id make them eat their own cocks and hammer wooden fence posts up their arses..humiliation is the key,,plus you need a doctor there with you to make sure they remain alive throughout..

Yes, indeed.

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