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-- When are they going to pass that non-smoking law?
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Originally posted by Theresa Respectfully, would you go into an old age home/a daycare centre, or better yet, your grandmother/grandfathers or own child's bedroom and smoke a cigarette?

i dont visit old age homes, i stay away from daycare centres and i sure as hell wouldnt go into my grandparents' room with or without a cigarette


keep in mind as i mentioned before, im neutral on this.

u just try to support urself with hypothethical analysis

quote:

Originally posted by The Highroller i am a smoker. i enjoy smoking. especially when on some sort of substance. i have completely changed my viewpoint on this issue. before i was pissed off and against this legislation, but now i realize, smokers really have no argument. we really don't have a right to poison non smokers. even if the population of non smokers in nightclubs is small, we still don't have a right to poison them. i'm going to be pissed when the no smoking law gets passed, but at least it will give me one more reason to stop smoking.

Thank-you for summing it up. The law is designed to protect non-smokers.

-Your Mother

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Originally posted by Jayx1 But thats exactly where this country is headed which is why i am against all these social engienering laws.

FFS, enough of your slippery slope bullshit...just because smoking is being further limited, it doesn't follow that we're destined for some Orwellian 1984 society

Why is the smoking ban being tolerated? Because there isn't enough public outrage. Why isn't there? Because most people with half a brain realize that this is generally a good idea for EVERYONE. Are you upset at seatbelt laws? I mean, you're an adult, you should be able to not wear one if you so choose, by your logic...but it's in EVERYONE's interests to have those laws in place.

Government, to some reasonable extent, being mildly paternalistic is not the end of "freedom" as we know it

You're the one that likes to point out how much worse things are elsewhere (threads on overcrowding)...well, here's a does of your own medicine...compare our rights to those of the majority of other countries. I guess we have it pretty good and YOU should just stop whining?

Lets talk about the social rights you have in Europe or south america and the freedom to do as you please.

For example, the government does not tell you at which hour you can and cannot drink. This is just one example.

Please, do some travelling and experience what its like to have a beer as the sun comes up on a patio next to the beach. Or to enjoy the simple pleasure of being able to run a business without worrying who is going to sue you next for their own stupidity.

You think we have freedom here? No, we only THINK we do...

You picked the wrong example to use here my friend....


PS: how are seatbelt laws in EVERYONE's interest and please do not use the health care argument because that will in essence be a defacto arguement against public health care as far as im concerned.

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Originally posted by Theresa I think a lot of people are misintrepreting the intentions of the governement. Because the world is over expanding, we have so many people in such a small area. And in order for us all to live in peace and civility, we need to lay down ground rules so as not to step on others toes (laws and such), possibly causing war, famine, devastation.

Well I dont wanna start a war, famine, or devastation on the count of my cigarette butt, so I think I will stop from destroying the world by not smoking inside a club and have a law to force me to do that.

quote:

We also have created things that are hurting our planet, and leading to the demise of our kind. I think the government is trying to take precautions in order to keep us around a little bit longer.

Yeah, while you drive your car to work, drink mocca-frappacino's from your local tim hortons, and shop at the mall for your trendy clothes that are made off the blood and sweat of thousands of underpaid sweat shop workers.

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If you really think about it, if we continue the way we are going now, we will end up poisoning our air so badly, that we will need to wear gas masks all the time. Or we will polute our water to no return, and we all die from thirst, or water contamination. It has already started, so it isn't like I am pulling this out of my ass. Toronto has "smog" warnings for god sakes! What does that tell you?

Well this tells me two things, one is that your stupid, secondly that smog has little to do with cigarette butts. Maybe its the industrial factories that strive to keep our economy open yet pollute our Earth in order for our own survival, not to mention that nice car you drive around that is a luxury you take oh so for granted, yet have wonderful fully working legs and feet to get you anywhere. Don't piss on cigarette smoke likes its the leading cause of all air pollution in this world.

quote:

SOMEONE has to do something to get the rest of us to follow in taking care of what we got and reversing the negative effects. If no action is taken, we are just setting ourselves up for complete distruction.

Lets hope that someone isn't you, otherwise were gonna be in a shitstorm of mis-informed and badly shaped laws...

quote:

To the guy who had a spaz out on me:

The names Rico, RodRico to you.

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Perhaps your cigarette in particular may not hurt me, but if you go into a room where about 50 cigarettes are burning, I would say there is a hell of a lot of shit floating around that is gonna cause me some health issues. Yes, I am aware we will all die one day, but personally, I would prefer to die more pleasantly, like of old age, rather than because of some lung cancer eating away at my body.. suffering until I suck in my last breath.

Listen, if you honestly think about the percentage of people who die from second hand smoke, were looking at a less than 1 percent chance of dying from inhaling other peoples smoke, then compared to the millions of other ways you can die. The only people who die from lung cancer are those who are actually real smokers, the statistics of you dying from my second hand smoke are quite low.

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I think you need to see someone die of lung cancer to understand. I watched someone die right in front of me, I watched them cough up blood, I heard them wheeze and grasp for air each time they took a breath, I saw the painkillers and IV's hooked up to them, and worst of all, I saw the sadness in their eyes, because they were going through the most utter hell and pain.

First of all, you dont know if someone close to me has died from lung cancer, you make some assumption that I have no understanding of the pain someone who dies from Lung Cancer. But see, I do this thing called thinking, and what it does for me is it checks the rationality of your claims, and while I see your stats its not enough for me to try and take away legal rights away from the people, on another note...have you ever watched someone die slowly after being run over by a car? its quite disgustingly horrible, and yet, you dont see me trying to ban cars. Not that Im going to say that smoking is good for you, dont get me wrong, I plan on quiting soon, and taking this as a step towards having cleaner air in the clubs and not having to stink like an ashtray when I leave any club. I just dont like being forced by people to make decisions for me and strip away my rights without even trying to accomodate me in any possible way.

quote:

I have a question for all of you smokers out there. Respectfully, would you go into an old age home/a daycare centre, or better yet, your grandmother/grandfathers or own child's bedroom and smoke a cigarette?

What does this have to do with clubbing and the new law that was passed? How about, when you live like an Amish person, then you can tell me about how your life choices dont affect my health everday, he who has not sinned may cast the first stone..

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I am sure most of you would probably not, and why? Because you know it isn't good for them. So why is it that those of us who are generally the same age, get ignored and disregarded to being subjected to garbage? Doesn't make sense to me.

As I am sure many things dont make sense to you, but you are right on something, I wouldnt go out of my way to kill others (tho I wish I could) and I definately dont care for enviroment and heatlh issues, since our system is so beyond flawed in dealing with these topics. All I know is, I dont care for your crusades or your ideas to be forced upon me, I want to make my own decisions and live my life as I see it fit.

Good post rico. Its amazing how people who never even set foot in a club are so worried about what goes on there in regards to smoking. Its also amazing how concerned people are about second hand smoke yet will gladly walk down the street in Downtown Toronto (which IMO is much much more hazardous to your health breathing wise)

As for the pollution rant, rico is again absolutely right. Until you stop doing anything unnatural to the environment i would appreciate the end to the holier-than-thou speech.

BTW unnatural is everything from heating your home, to use electricity, to using an electric motor to transport yourself (including transit) or buying any sort of commodity what so ever (since it had to be transported by a fossil fuel burning vehicle not to mention the pollution created to create the product)

The reason why city councils and politicians are going after pesticide use, smoking, and as i predict in the future BBQs and motorized lawnmowers is because they are soft targets. It passifies the zealots (for awhile at least).

quote:

Originally posted by Jayx1 This issue isnt about the right to smoke for me. Its about the bigger picture of how much right the government has to enforce its will on people.

Um...newflash...it's the people that called for it; not the government...

For the record this is the THIRD PHASE of an overall smoke-free plan.
I don't see why all the crying now...
It's not like this is news...

I'm glad it's finally coming as are all my friends.
I have nothing against smokers, it's the smoke they produce that bothers me.

Facts about second-hand smoke:
http://www.city.toronto.on.ca/healt..._fact_sheet.pdf

Who exactly are the "people"?

Poll aunt maude and uncle lester and im sure they are all for banning smoking in nightclubs and strip bars.

Take a look at the people toasting the passing of the law at union station last week. I dont think any of them have even stepped foot in a nightclub since Lester B pearson was in office!!

quote:

Originally posted by Jayx1 Who exactly are the "people"? Poll aunt maude and uncle lester and im sure they are all for banning smoking in nightclubs and strip bars. Take a look at the people toasting the passing of the law at union station last week. I dont think any of them have even stepped foot in a nightclub since Lester B pearson was in office!!

It's myopic to think that it's just the government that wants this.
How about The Lung Association? Canada's oldest voluntary, not-for-profit health promotion organizations.

And what about your peers?
Pointing at the older people whom happen to be in office doesn't mean there aren't other younger people that actually go to clubs that do want this.
I don't understand all the hostility towards a good thing?
I mean we all understand the hazards of second-hand smoke; they are factual and non-disputable...

The hostility is over how much control the government can wield over its citizens and how they can restrict ADULT behaviour. Its about the jobs that will be lost and its about the fact that tobacco is a legal product.

If the government were really serious about tobacco they would impose a prohibition on it but they are addicted to cigarette taxes.

Also, please dont tell me that charities are altruistic organizations. Ive had enough experience with charities to understand that the core of them are PAID professionals who's job it is to do nothing but lobby.

Newsflash everyone...

anyone who has taken stats in school has defenetly been told that stats can be perspectively skewed to prove any point...

as a former market research analyst, we used to take only what we wanted, set up criteria so that we could end up with a certain number and then throw it at the public to prove a point that really cant be proven.

quote:

Originally posted by Jayx1 The hostility is over how much control the government can wield over its citizens and how they can restrict ADULT behaviour. Its about the jobs that will be lost and its about the fact that tobacco is a legal product.

That would be an opinion that is shared by many yes.
The opposite is also true that there are a lot more people that don't go out because of the smoking that is done in enclosed areas. To say that jobs will be lost is a hypothetical situation that can only be proven after several months of the ban being in effect.
It could also be argued that because of the no smoking ban, the $$$ that was hidden because of people not going out beforehand is lucrative.
We'll just have to wait an see how it goes.

quote:

If the government were really serious about tobacco they would impose a prohibition on it but they are addicted to cigarette taxes.

We all know that government loves taxes; it's how they operate (unfortunately). Higher taxes will serve to deter smoking, fatten their budjet AND take more people out of the already burdened Health Care system. It's win/win/win for the government...(and in the long-term us; the taxpayers).

quote:

Also, please dont tell me that charities are altruistic organizations. Ive had enough experience with charities to understand that the core of them are PAID professionals who's job it is to do nothing but lobby.

Absoultely!
How else would a non-profit orgainization survive?

The results have been that if you ask any club/bar owner in cities where this has taken effect which they like better, smoking or non smoking theyd go back to smoking in a heartbeat.

People use California as an example. well California has year round summer... makes a big difference come January doesnt it?

Dont worry...patio bans are coming. Apparently they already ban smoking on patios in New York State.

quote:

Originally posted by Rodrico Well I dont wanna start a war, famine, or devastation on the count of my cigarette butt, so I think I will stop from destroying the world by not smoking inside a club and have a law to force me to do that. Yeah, while you drive your car to work, drink mocca-frappacino's from your local tim hortons, and shop at the mall for your trendy clothes that are made off the blood and sweat of thousands of underpaid sweat shop workers. Well this tells me two things, one is that your stupid, secondly that smog has little to do with cigarette butts. Maybe its the industrial factories that strive to keep our economy open yet pollute our Earth in order for our own survival, not to mention that nice car you drive around that is a luxury you take oh so for granted, yet have wonderful fully working legs and feet to get you anywhere. Don't piss on cigarette smoke likes its the leading cause of all air pollution in this world. Lets hope that someone isn't you, otherwise were gonna be in a shitstorm of mis-informed and badly shaped laws... The names Rico, RodRico to you. Listen, if you honestly think about the percentage of people who die from second hand smoke, were looking at a less than 1 percent chance of dying from inhaling other peoples smoke, then compared to the millions of other ways you can die. The only people who die from lung cancer are those who are actually real smokers, the statistics of you dying from my second hand smoke are quite low. First of all, you dont know if someone close to me has died from lung cancer, you make some assumption that I have no understanding of the pain someone who dies from Lung Cancer. But see, I do this thing called thinking, and what it does for me is it checks the rationality of your claims, and while I see your stats its not enough for me to try and take away legal rights away from the people, on another note...have you ever watched someone die slowly after being run over by a car? its quite disgustingly horrible, and yet, you dont see me trying to ban cars. Not that Im going to say that smoking is good for you, dont get me wrong, I plan on quiting soon, and taking this as a step towards having cleaner air in the clubs and not having to stink like an ashtray when I leave any club. I just dont like being forced by people to make decisions for me and strip away my rights without even trying to accomodate me in any possible way. What does this have to do with clubbing and the new law that was passed? How about, when you live like an Amish person, then you can tell me about how your life choices dont affect my health everday, he who has not sinned may cast the first stone.. As I am sure many things dont make sense to you, but you are right on something, I wouldnt go out of my way to kill others (tho I wish I could) and I definately dont care for enviroment and heatlh issues, since our system is so beyond flawed in dealing with these topics. All I know is, I dont care for your crusades or your ideas to be forced upon me, I want to make my own decisions and live my life as I see it fit.

I'm not passing a judgement, just an observation, but to me you seem to be a very pessimistic, disturbed, and unhappy little man. You ripped apart everything I had to say, just to make yourself feel right, and stronger in this debate, instead of trying to see what the real meaning behind what I had to say was (which you clearly missed). You resorted to insults and rude insinuations/comments to back-up your fight, and anger.

I no longer want to discuss this with you, because obviously somewhere along the line, you forgot how to discuss something in a civil manner.

As for Jayx1, please don't assume I have not been in a club. I have been in many clubs, both smoking and non-smoking, and I will always prefer the non-smoking environment.

Go ahead and hate me for caring about what we've got. It's people that don't give a shit about the world who condone everything that is bad in our society, and it just so happens that I don't want to contribute to it.

im not assuming you have never been to a club. But what im saying is that most people who support this law dont go to clubs. Id like to see a scientific poll done among club patrons only and see what the result is.

As for your intentions. They are noble indeed. However we do have to live in reality and reality says that we will never have a utopian society simply because your utopia could be someone else's hell. Bleeding heart liberals always fail to understand this.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

Jayx1, honestly, you have no point.

quote:

Originally posted by Jayx1 In Canada Men can marry men, women are allowed to go topless, marijuana is almost legal, and we are the most progressive country when it comes to equal rights..

True, women can go topless, drinking is allowed, and many other things also. BUT, these things do not directly effect others. Second hand smoke does. In a public place, you can't get away from second hand smoke, but you can get away from a topless woman !!

This freedom shit you are going on about, it's a fucking joke guys. Just smoke outside. When I read that government shit you were going on about, I laughed. You still have your freedom. Well over half of Toronto wants you to smoke outside, so basically, you are taking away MY freedom when you smoke inside !!!

I should have the freedom to be in a smoke free enviroment ! Right?
So honestly I am so sick of you trying to prove your point...because when it comes down to it, the majority of Toronto wants it to happen.

quote:

Originally posted by Jayx1 But what im saying is that most people who support this law dont go to clubs.

You keep hammering this point and at best, it's an opinion.
Even if it were true, a million wrong opinions is still wrong.

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Originally posted by Rodrico Well this tells me two things, one is that your stupid, secondly that smog has little to do with cigarette butts. Maybe its the industrial factories that strive to keep our economy open yet pollute our Earth in order for our own survival, not to mention that nice car you drive around that is a luxury you take oh so for granted, yet have wonderful fully working legs and feet to get you anywhere. Don't piss on cigarette smoke likes its the leading cause of all air pollution in this world.

I really do not believe she was pointing at cigarettes as the leading cause of pollution. I think she was reffering to generally unhealthy(for the environment) behaviour, and that we must change our general habits to protect ourselves.

quote:

Originally posted by Rodrico Listen, if you honestly think about the percentage of people who die from second hand smoke, were looking at a less than 1 percent chance of dying from inhaling other peoples smoke, then compared to the millions of other ways you can die. The only people who die from lung cancer are those who are actually real smokers, the statistics of you dying from my second hand smoke are quite low.

How about not just dieing? All of you are looking at the end result, why not look at how you would get there? Smoking and its related health affects, are not only restricted to death. I have asthama, which means i have restricted lung capacity due to my condition, does the tar which hangs in the air not constrict my breathing? These are side affects of smoking that are not just cancer related. They are real. That stuff a smoker caughs up every morning, is that cancer? no. There are other health side affects which you must understand, please educate yourself.

quote:

Originally posted by Rodrico First of all, you dont know if someone close to me has died from lung cancer, you make some assumption that I have no understanding of the pain someone who dies from Lung Cancer. But see, I do this thing called thinking, and what it does for me is it checks the rationality of your claims, and while I see your stats its not enough for me to try and take away legal rights away from the people, on another note...have you ever watched someone die slowly after being run over by a car? its quite disgustingly horrible, and yet, you dont see me trying to ban cars. Not that Im going to say that smoking is good for you, dont get me wrong, I plan on quiting soon, and taking this as a step towards having cleaner air in the clubs and not having to stink like an ashtray when I leave any club. I just dont like being forced by people to make decisions for me and strip away my rights without even trying to accomodate me in any possible way.

They are not taking away your right of being able to smoke, they are restricting the venue in which you can smoke. Yes the gov does not ban driving even though you can kill somebody...Are you allowed to drive in a park, indoors, on side walks? NO. Again they are not taking away the right to drive, but restricting the venue. Its the exact same idea, and if you cant see that, then you are very close minded. They are trying to create safer controlled environments, you can drink but not everywhere. You can do a lot of htings, but they are all restricted to certain areas to keep people safe.

quote:

Originally posted by Rodrico What does this have to do with clubbing and the new law that was passed? How about, when you live like an Amish person, then you can tell me about how your life choices dont affect my health everday, he who has not sinned may cast the first stone.

She was trying to show that there are circumstances where you would not smoke, because it is unhealthy. Those are instances, just as people in a bar or resturant who would like to enjoy a smoke free time.

quote:

Originally posted by Rodrico As I am sure many things dont make sense to you, but you are right on something, I wouldnt go out of my way to kill others (tho I wish I could) and I definately dont care for enviroment and heatlh issues, since our system is so beyond flawed in dealing with these topics. All I know is, I dont care for your crusades or your ideas to be forced upon me, I want to make my own decisions and live my life as I see it fit.

there is give and take in every circumstance. This is a democracy last i heard(although you may argue otherwise). Leaders are chosen, choices are made, not all of them correct. Please feel free to contact your member of parliment if you feel so strong about this matter. Obviously there is a section of the population which has chosen non-smoking, and this being a democracy im gonna say they are the MAJORITY

quote:

Originally posted by Jayx1 They are working on banning smoking on patios in Toronto as we speak. And they have already banned all outdoor smoking on some school campuses in Canada and the US. This is why im against ANY new laws. Because the zealots will just push for more and more.

I know i attend a university, and people are more than able to smoke...as for your education? Im not sure it exists, considering a TORONTO school (york) allows smoking on campus.

quit smoking - digest a mushroom.
I_love_marijuana.mp3

STOP ATTACKING THE PEOPLE BEHIND THE ARGUMENTS, ATTACK THE ARGUMENTS THEMSELVES!

keep bringing up points, i will keep shooting them down with real arguments, not negative cricicism of the person.

quote:

Originally posted by Orko That stuff a smoker caughs up every morning, is that cancer? no. There are other health side affects which you must understand, please educate yourself.

i have never coughed due to smoking. ive know smokers whove lived till the age of 90. and no im not trying to justify smoking.

quote:

Originally posted by DJ El Kay Dee i have never coughed due to smoking. ive know smokers whove lived till the age of 90. and no im not trying to justify smoking.

agreed, not all people are affected in the same way. But is it not fair to say that there are more immediate health effects which people here are not taking into account?

how long have you been smoking? I have never actually met a person before who did not have some sort of lung problems with regular smoking.

quote:

Originally posted by Orko agreed, not all people are affected in the same way. But is it not fair to say that there are more immediate health effects which people here are not taking into account? how long have you been smoking? I have never actually met a person before who did not have some sort of lung problems with regular smoking.

6 years and thats why its hard for me to go cold turkey...ive cut down now from a pack a day to a pack every 2-3 days....

theres a reason why we who chainsmoke cant quit in an instant and it aitn cos of the habit of holding a cigarette...its cos of the change in our metabolism and lack of nicotine produced by our brain (yes everyones prain produces nicotine and this gets reduced/stopped whne the body finds another form of deriving it)

quote:

Originally posted by Jayx1 Lets talk about the social rights you have in Europe or south america and the freedom to do as you please. For example, the government does not tell you at which hour you can and cannot drink. This is just one example. Please, do some travelling and experience what its like to have a beer as the sun comes up on a patio next to the beach. Or to enjoy the simple pleasure of being able to run a business without worrying who is going to sue you next for their own stupidity. You think we have freedom here? No, we only THINK we do... You picked the wrong example to use here my friend.... PS: how are seatbelt laws in EVERYONE's interest and please do not use the health care argument because that will in essence be a defacto arguement against public health care as far as im concerned.

No, I'm not world travelled, but I'm quite aware of more lenient gov't restrictions in European countries, for example. I didn't say Canada was the *most* liberal society in the world, but you've conveniently insinuated that's what I'm saying. Compared to ALL countries, we have it pretty good. Just like compared to ALL countries, you argue that overcrowding isn't so bad here.

Why can't I use health costs in the seatbelt argument? I will also use insurance costs. Seatbelts clearly reduce injury in car crashes. A reduction in injuries reduces healthcare costs which in turn reduces insurance claim amounts. A reduction in injuries makes people in general "happier"...ie. can you really suggest that everyone's extra "happiness" that would be gained by not having to wear seatbelts offsets the harm that results from additional injury and expense that would follow?

Really the argument comes down to this:

1. We both want the freedom to go where we choose and do what we choose in order that we may enjoy ouselves. For the most part, our society's laws grant us that right on the condition that in the pursuit of our own enjoyment, we are not directly infringing upon the ability of others to similarly enjoy themselves in whatever manner they choose.
2. I would argue that smokers unnecessarily inhibit or restrict my ability to enjoy myself in public...ie. their action *directly* and unavoidably results in a decrease in my enjoyment due to secondhand smoke which harmful to my health.
3. Me going to a club and drinking, doing drugs, whatever, does NOT directly impact your ability to attend and enjoy yourself. If I'm drunk or high, you can essentially ignore me. I can't ignore secondhand smoke.

So given that...how can you justify that your perceived right (which it is not) to smoke supercedes my right to enjoy myself? As I said, and you neglected to address, many other things are "legal" whose practice is restricted for adults, such as consuming alcohol and having sex. It can easily be argued that two adults having sex in the middle of a club poses far less "harm" to anyone else than secondhand smoke, yet few people are up in arms that everyone can't have sex in the middle of the dancefloor

So without pointing to other countries...without throwing stats around...just address what I've asked...why does your right to enjoy yourself supercede my right to enjoy myself when your actions harm me and mine do not harm you?

quote:

Originally posted by MarkT So given that...how can you justify that your perceived right (which it is not) to smoke supercedes my right to enjoy myself?

It's called, "peculiarly convenient"...

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