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What I think is happening here is that nobody is understanding or wanting to understand what Jay and Digi are saying.

North American society is fucking spoiled by the law. They think the law is here to protect their parnoia and their every day cry for the smallest of bullshit. I've seen this done soooo many times. Not only here at home but by tourists in forgein countries as well! It is scary because out of nowhere you might get treated like a criminal for doing jack shit . That is the point of this thread.

Unfortunatly It just happens that the guy taking picture of the kids might be a bad example to get that point across because he obviuosly was doing something shady by 1) hiding the camera, 2) resisting arrest.

I think both ends of the discussions are right here !

I think Jay and Digi are right as well in regards to the abuse of rights in general, but not in this situation.

Look @ the O.P.P for instance. They were the largest armed force with fully active staff in Canada, and are personally accountable not to higher ranking officers or boards, but to CABINET MINISTERS.

My room-mate's father is a high ranking OPP officer, and I didn't convince him about the Harris government until I drew the Police State paralell for him when he mentioned he mainly answered to MPPs.

Not that much of a co-incidence that Orillia got the OPP Academy and Headquarters when they got Casino Rama. Need a personal army to protect their millions.

Phew, I'm glad to see some people are at least understanding what I'm trying to say even if they don't agree.

I'm not saying that this guy shouldn't have cooperated with the police. It's this age-of-entitlement thing that drives me crazy. Rights are now supposedly guarantees, and therefore the law is there not only to make sure that they CAN be happy but that they ARE happy, even if that impinges on somebody else's enjoyment. Well I call bullshit, society is due up for a total reversal of this principle.

People just need to take responsibility for themselves more often instead of complaining.

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I'm not saying that this guy shouldn't have cooperated with the police

But that is exactly what you guys were saying earlier of which I had issue with. Even the man's own father admited to the media that he was most likely arrested after becoming beligerent because he has a very bad temper. Had he been polite and forthcoming with an understandable explaination (like Crazedcanuck suggests) then I doubt it would have happened the way it did.

I AM glad both sides of this debate are seeing a bit more of the middle ground though...myself included and I definatly agree with:

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People just need to take responsibility for themselves more often instead of complaining.

That truth should be more pertinant than any opinion posted here. I did immediatly think if it was my child...I would have gone up to him myself before looking for any authorities...as Digi had mentioned but that also has it's dangers and trappings.

The problem we face in terms of personal responsibility is that collectivley we've all but removed it from daily life. Look at no fault Car Insurance, look how parents abuse teachers because little Johnny is a fuck up but they can't accept any blame, look at how people are afraid to even help a dying person on the street because they are too worried they'll get sued if they make one wrong move in terms of first aid. In this case personal responibility would have meant either to move on and ignore the man or confront him personally to stop if you had issue with his activity. If the law should not have intervened for his actions, they would have assuridly if a person confronted him and it led to assault. A great system....the creep stealing shots of kids gets off and the concerned and proactive citizen gets charged with assault, but everyone's rights have been preserved YAY!!!!!

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Originally posted by DigiNut Phew, I'm glad to see some people are at least understanding what I'm trying to say even if they don't agree. I'm not saying that this guy shouldn't have cooperated with the police. It's this age-of-entitlement thing that drives me crazy. Rights are now supposedly guarantees, and therefore the law is there not only to make sure that they CAN be happy but that they ARE happy, even if that impinges on somebody else's enjoyment. Well I call bullshit, society is due up for a total reversal of this principle. People just need to take responsibility for themselves more often instead of complaining.

I can very much relate to what you and Jay are trying to say. As loconet pointed out, people in North America are spoiled into thinking they can cry wolf at any given opportunity.

Just a recent example of how this has degenerated:

I work at a very big tourist shop in Dublin behind the cash registers. We have a huge amount of Americans who come to the place everday. Now earlier this week, I had heard about a warning of a supposed "electronic jihad" against American banks, which would result in chaos for Americans at home and abroad.

That day I had quite a few American customers ask me if I knew where a "working ATM" was because it seemed their cards were being declined in most ATMs.

I was busy helping two Americans at my till when an American lady came to the register next to mine asking that same question: "Where do I find a working ATM?". Hearing her say that, I jokingly commented that "it must be only American credit cards that are being declined". The people I was helping laughed at the comment. The other woman said nothing. I go on my lunch and resume everything as normal. At the end of the day, I get called into the shop owner's office.

By this time I'm petrified because someone had already leaked to me that a customer had complained about me.
What do you know, that silly bitch had gone to my manager after I left for lunch (under the pretext that she couldn't stand the sight of me) and asked for all her money back and an official apology from myself and the shop otherwise she would sue the shop for the diffamation of the good American name. Apparently she had been extremely upset by my (in my eyes) anodine comment.

Give me a break? I wasn't attacking friggin America when I said that (and God forbid I ever do). The people I was helping were Americans and laughed about it for christ's sake! But no, this woman thought what I had said was extremely unpleasant, hurtful, and wanted her money back. Not to mention the fact that she also asked for money because of the fact that she went through "emotional distress".

I can't even say something as little as that without being threatened with a lawsuit. If that's not spoiled, I don't know what is. People should chill the feck out and relax a little when it comes to small things like that. Had I smacked her across the face and called her a dumbass I would have expected something, yes. But for something as small as that well... I'm realizing more and more how much North America in general has become over-sensitive to the most minor things.

loca what you are describing is menopaused bitch who has no common sense.

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Originally posted by LoCa What do you know, that silly bitch had gone to my manager after I left for lunch (under the pretext that she couldn't stand the sight of me) and asked for all her money back and an official apology from myself and the shop otherwise she would sue the shop for the diffamation of the good American name. Apparently she had been extremely upset by my (in my eyes) anodine comment.

Trust me... the "good American name" had nothing to do with it. It was all about the money. This cheap bitch just seized the opportunity to get her money back. I've worked retail here and overseas. This shit happens all the time. Now the difference is in a 3rd world country if a customer demands for their money back citing "lawsuit" they'd be lucky walk out the store fully functional. But over here in the western world, even the hint of "lawsuit" causes the shop owners to drop their pants and spread em. You can thank the American legal system for that.

The funny thing is that in the 3rd world "poor countries" people would never make a scandal over not being able to use a $1.00 off coupon for example. Ive had many instances of people freaking out because they cant combine a coupon with a discount. In many other countries, It would be a shame if this happened and people would look down on the complainer. The people behind the counter probably would have even laughed at the patheticnessof the person in their face!

Sadly here people expect to their ass to be kissed even when they are wrong. Its brutal to be honest with you.

Lets not even get me started on how oversensitive people are. The refreshing thing i found about england for example is how comical people were even at stores. They werent afraid to crack a joke much like loca's. Here you can't do it and if you do it's a risk. This is why we now have a society that is robotic and scripted especially when it comes to business. I personally dont care and i crack tasteful jokes with my customers all the time. If one day i get a complaint ill just deal with it. Id feel sorry for them though.

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Originally posted by Jayx1 Diginut: these guys are a lost cause. Let them feel good that theyve busted some wierdo taking pics and lets just hope they never get wrongly arrested.

Why would any of us EVER find ourselves in this type of situation? Who here is going to get lippy with a cop or resist/flee when they're not guilty of any crime?

This guy brought this ALL on himself...from his undeniably suspicious behaviout to his lack of cooperation with the police.

Neither of you really acknowledged my point either...ie. IF this guy DID do something, the police would have been RIPPED by the public for not even approaching him at all. They were doing their job. If you want to criticize the parents for being paranoid fine...but being paranoid isn't any more illegal than taking concealed pics of children in public.

Honestly, you guys find overly protective parents more offensive than a guy taking pics of kids with a concealed camera? GIVE ME A BREAK!

Loca, you should be more pissed at *your manager* for being such a pussy and catering to the whining of that customer, lol...

I find a blatent disrespect for the law by the people who are supposed to enforce it offensive.

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Originally posted by Jayx1 I find a blatent disrespect for the law by the people who are supposed to enforce it offensive.

so...people who smoke in a club, despite a no-smoking bylaw? (haha, couldn't resist)

I don't know where "disrespect for the law" factors into this case. The only law I see as having been broken here is when the guy apparently tried to flee and/or resisted arrest from the police.

but ok...argue some more for the manufactured "right" the creepy guy has to not be questioned by police who have received complaints about his deviant behaviour.

i said "by the people who are supposed to enforce it" so i guess that means that if a bylaw officer (one of trailer park boys, or at least thats what they look like) was smoking then yes i d have to disrespect that guy as well. Although it would be priceless!

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Originally posted by MarkT argue some more for the manufactured "right" the creepy guy has to not be questioned by police who have received complaints about his deviant behaviour.

He has the right to be escorted off private property. The right to be under surveillance and the right to be charged when an actual illegal act has been comitted. ie) if they investigate his server and find kiddie porn downloads. Sadly, Fantino just couldnt resist a photo op it seems. And because of this im sure it will be thrown out of court and the story at that point will be somewhere on page 12. The damage to him will have been done and fantino will still look like mr superhero.

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Originally posted by Crazy Serb Now that's just downright paranoia... people need to chill out a bit. Everyone's so afraid of everything these days, politically correct, scared of terrorists, government, pedofiles, etc.

They have a right to be paranoid
If people were more concerned like that then we will have less "Cacilia Zang" incidences

If people were even more paranoid we'd be an even more closed up society than we already are

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Originally posted by Tordan Now the difference is in a 3rd world country if a customer demands for their money back citing "lawsuit" they'd be lucky walk out the store fully functional. But over here in the western world, even the hint of "lawsuit" causes the shop owners to drop their pants and spread em. You can thank the American legal system for that.

Hahaa... this system is pure jokes. People getting sued for all kinds of dumb things, just because the customer has a right to do it.

Oh man, if they tried to pull that off in my country, they'd get laughed at so much... it would probably make the newspaper headlines as well. And if they even thought of complaining to the store owners, hahhaa... they'd probably get beaten up too and kicked out of the store with a friendly advice of "Have more respect for me and my employees next time you walk in to the store, you dumb bitch!"

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Originally posted by MarkT ...complaints about his deviant behaviour.

Deviating from what exactly? I see that as the falling point of this argument. Unless he was actually exhibiting criminal behaviour, the police should not have been involved at all. Yes, he should have cooperated, for his own sake, but he had the right not to do so and should neither have been investigated in the first place nor arrested after the fact.

We can't equate moral relatives with legal absolutes, as much as citizens of this country enjoy doing that. The law is (or should be) black and white, either a crime was committed or it wasn't, and if police receive a complaint about something that is definitely NOT a crime, their default response should be "great, keep us posted". Or even to keep an eye on, but not directly confront the "suspicious man." But arresting him? On suspicion of... what exactly? There's simply no justification under the law for that.

It's nothing more than a "feel good" move by the police. They get away with it because it's popular, no matter how unlawful. But the primary responsibility of police is to uphold the law, not to ensure that other people feel good.

Police used to do this with black people, too. Black people made some bigots uncomfortable, so the police would step in and administer arrests or beatings on some half-witted suspicion. That was called racism. So what is the exact same thing called when the discomfort is called by something other than race?

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Originally posted by DigiNut Deviating from what exactly? I see that as the falling point of this argument. Unless he was actually exhibiting criminal behaviour, the police should not have been involved at all. Yes, he should have cooperated, for his own sake, but he had the right not to do so and should neither have been investigated in the first place nor arrested after the fact. ...

I disagree...there's nothing wrong with him having been approached by police when they received complaints. Police are there to maintain order, not just uphold "the law".

If you're going to strictly follow the letter of the law in pointing out that he did nothing illegal, that you must also at least accept the fact that no one has a legal right to not be approached by police when exhibiting suspicious behaviour.

You can't have it both ways

You're saying he "shouldn't" have been approached...well, the police did nothing "illegal" in approaching him. It works both ways. You're making a moral judgement on their actions, but object when moral judgements are made on the actions of the guy. That's inconsistent, IMHO.

the police can approach him, but unless he was doing something wrong they cannot engage him. In other words, the police can ask all the questiosn they want, but unless you are under arrest you dont have to co-operate with them. Even then you have the right to remain silent.

Its sickening how many people do not even know their basic rights as evident by some of the comments posted here.

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