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-- Im More Underground Than U!!
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fuck. dj sammy is is so dated.


go back to 1998 or 97 whenever the fuck it was released.

quote:

Originally posted by auranaut Silence is a good track, but it's still Epic trance.

I wouldn't call DJ Sammy epic trance. The emphasis isn't on a central anthem, the breakdown isn't anywhere near as important and the track arrangement is more like that of a pop song.

quote:

Originally posted by SYSTEM-J I wouldn't call DJ Sammy epic trance. The emphasis isn't on a central anthem, the breakdown isn't anywhere near as important and the track arrangement is more like that of a pop song.

But isn't there a full-length version of Heaven?

i'm more underground than u all.

quote:

Originally posted by auranaut But isn't there a full-length version of Heaven?

There's probably an "Extended" version, with DJ friendly intros and outros. That still doesn't take away the structuring of the track- everything just gets looped a bit more. If you listen to Radio Edits of epic trance tracks, they always keep the breakdown in as a pivotal part of the track, which Heaven does not.

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Originally posted by Aiwendil unfortunately it's not so much the duration of the breakdown that counts it epic trance, but how the breakdown is used.

That's my point. A longer version of the track doesn't change its genre.

quote:

Originally posted by Aiwendil they are comparable in that they're both trance, but they're not the same subgenre.

Under that premise, you could compare Ralphie B - Massive (D Ramirez) [Kinda tribal progressive house] to Dr Kucho - Lies To Yourself [Funky/deep house] because they both fall into the House genre, but different subgenres?

I dont agree...

It'd be like comparing milk and cheese as they are both dairy

I think the sheer amount of people who enjoy ferry and tiesto and all that, yet can't stand Dj Sammy, is evidence enough to show that the tracks are not all that similar.

This of course can be faced by the amount of people who enjoy them both and mix them together(blasphemers!)

its kinda refreshing though, arguing about dj sammy instead of armin for a change.

The main difference is the target market, sammy be going for the kids who listen to the radio, the kids at the high schools, the kids who find raving as a rite of passage for their teenage reballion against nothing.

Armin, Ferry, and the like, they seem to be more party-focused than pop star focused. I mean, sure the two focuses overlap to some extent, cuz it isnt much of a party unless you can attract a crowd, but alot of the crowd is not that same dj sammy crowd, alot of that crowd are seasoned party veterans, people who come to dance and have fun instead of being the cool teenager at the high school who listens to the electronic pop on the radio. Sammy imitated them, cuz he hants to penetrate that market too.

Tiesto I agree, is going away from the party crowd market toward the pop radio market, and it seems like some of the other trancers are moving in this direction as well.

But is all of epic trance pop because this is happening? That is a tough one to call.

quote:

Originally posted by Aiwendil no, your point was that it mattered how much of the breakdown was kept "intact" in epic trance radio mixes, and how this transferrence, or lack of, in the case of heaven, implies a difference in genre between heaven and epic trance. i then state that the length of the breakdown does not make epic trance, but the epic fanfare central melody does, which is often introduced in the breakdown (of whichever length). and i'm not going to sit here and argue whether or not the radio mix is epic trance, which i never intended from the beginning. the extended mix is not only longer, but it has an intro reminiscent of epic trance intros, and ambient breakdowns where the epic fanfare is introduced, unlike the radio mix.

No, actually my point was that epic trance keeps the breakdowns for the radio edit because they are so central to the purpose of the track they aren't cut out like most of the fluff is on radio edits. The breakdowns are usually shorter on radio edits than full length mixes. Don't put words in my mouth.

As for breakdowns introducing melody- this does not make the track epic trance. Breakdowns introducing melody have been used on countless dance tracks of almost every genre imaginable for almost twenty years. Even in trance, ambient breakdowns could make it any genre from psy to progressive, from anthem to hard.

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Originally posted by Aiwendil how that has any relevance to anything relating to whether or not the extended mix of heaven is epic trance, is beyond me.

What it shows is that the breakdown is pivotal to epic trance, and yet it is not in Heaven.

Heaven is not epic trance. It is not structured as such and its key elements are not those of epic trance. It bears all the hallmarks of classic euro-dance, or epic house if you like, as in dancy pop music. Which is why all of Sammy's productions are covers of pop songs.

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Originally posted by Zombie0915 I think the sheer amount of people who enjoy ferry and tiesto and all that, yet can't stand Dj Sammy, is evidence enough to show that the tracks are not all that similar.

Why? There's good epic trance and there's bad epic trance. I happen to like, for example, Vincent De Moor - Fly Away (Instrumental Mix), but dislike Rank 1 - Airwave. Does that mean that one of them isn't epic trance?

Just because I am part of the oldskool, more progressive trance audience, does not mean that a track I like can't be epic trance. Similarly, just because an ignorant person who only listens to Top40-type music likes DJ Sammy - Heaven, does not mean it isn't epic trance.

I hope you see my point.

I didnt say that it wasn't epic trance, just that they werent all that similar.

Obviosly, fly away and airwave are different tunes, sure you can like progressive trance tunes that can still qualify as epic.

But there are differences, maybe not differences that can put them into separate genres, but differences enough to allow a person who enjoys the epic style(or even the big dutch guys) to not automaticly enjoy dj sammy.

you sound almost like you are trying to convince everyone that the stuff they are listening to is equivalent to dj sammy, but it isnt, even if they both fit in the same genre.

quote:

Originally posted by Aiwendil no, the epic fanfare is pivotal to epic trance, and the breakdown to a lesser degree, as well as the way in which both are used, in addition to other elements, all of which are present in the extended mix of Heaven. yes it is, and i've already explained why in great detail, unlike anyone else here.

So it's a case of your word against mine. Well not your word, but you're typing it so it counts. Stalemate I think.

However, "epic fanfare"? What is it- music to joust to?

I didn't say that there isn't any difference between what sammy and corsten produces, i only said that the difference isn't big. Of course there is difference to some extent, but certainly not enough so that supreme tranceaddicts can act all superior to people who love sammy etc. I don't have a problem with them. People should listen what they like to listen. I even listen to some popular trance from the likes of sammy. Who cares?

I have to admit that i also was bitching on people who liked sammy, lasgo etc. stuff in the beginning of my trance period, but after i while found that there is really no point to it. Trance i listened to really didn't differ that much from the commercial tracks and secretly i even enjoyed some of those tracks.

Really, there is no point to it. I agree with djpaulc.

quote:

Originally posted by Aiwendil if it were my word, it would be false. it is not my word, it is what epic trance is, no matter what anyone's word is. your word is unsupported and poorly thought out. you speaky english, bruddy? e-p-i-c f-a-n-f-a-r-e, aka the lead melody in e-p-i-c trance, if you have any problem understanding any of the words, please consult w-w-w dot d-i-c-t-i-o-n-a-r-y dot c-o-m.

We encounter the same recurring fault in your logic every time don't we? That your opinion is miraculously FACT regardless of what the subject. Personal tastes are FACT. Stupid prejedices are FACT. It's a FACT that pop music is bad music, it's a FACT that trance was better when it was more repetitive. Other people's opinions you've taken in because you're too narrow minded to contemplate your own view on something is FACT.

I can't be bothered with this shit any more. I've got better things to do with my life than to argue on the Internet with someone who is plainly wrong. It's like a scab I can't help but scratch. You always get the rise out of me through sheer bloody-mindedness. Well I'm gonna try and kick the habit, because it's depressing how often I've covered this ground.

I wouldn't bother carrying on. All I see now is "This person is on your Ignore List". Bliss.

quote:

I think the sheer amount of people who enjoy ferry and tiesto and all that, yet can't stand Dj Sammy, is evidence enough to show that the tracks are not all that similar.

So if someone enjoys Ferry and Tiesto but don't enjoy Armin then that must be evidence enough to show that the tracks are not all that similar?

that wasnt directed at you awein, it was in response to what ory(aura) said

but we do appear to be saying the same thing, just worded a little differently.

There seems to be a sort of food chain of bickering, everyone trying to stop the bickering at a different level.

we have ory apparently praising techno and condemning epic trance because of the similarities between ferry and sammy, most of my comments are aimed at this level

then we have your ferry and armin fans condemning sammy for being popish, which seems to be what awein and system j are on about, not that it really matters

some people are making the point that it is pop music all across the board, I agree with this.

I also agree that we shouldnt be bitching at each other because of the mass appeal of whatever we are listening to. Cuz every genre has it.

The comment I was responding to was the implication that all epic trance is popshit just because sammy fits in that category, which may or may not actually be what that dude meant to imply. The point I was trying to make was that not all epic trance is equivalent to dj sammy, in order to clarify what I meant with my "amount of people that dont like sammy" example.

See, now I'm confused about what we are even arguing over

things seem to be getting better as far as amount of bitching about being underground goes, threads like these used to flare up alot more frequently. I dont see todays big trancers parading around declaring that they are underground though, so I dont really get the whole thing about them being in denial because I havent really seen them act like they are underground for a long time. I'm thinking commentators are putting words in musicians mouths that they aren't saying.

quote:

some people are making the point that it is pop music all across the board, I agree with this.

popular music, Britney Spears is popular music, Armin van Buuren isn't

quote:

Originally posted by Blue. So if someone enjoys Ferry and Tiesto but don't enjoy Armin then that must be evidence enough to show that the tracks are not all that similar?

now this is a nasty exageration of what I meant

it definately takes more than one person, if there was a whole message boards full of kids, as well as musicians, who were praising ferry and teisto yet hating armin then I would be tempted to think that they are different, but just one person is not enough, unless they are a really smart and influential person who can explain the differences.

I think in sammy's case, there are anough people who dont like him yet like other epic musicians to be able to tell that they are different in some important ways. These people can understand each other and why they dont prefer sammy while enjoying the dutch trio, or else there wouldnt be such a large crowd of them. They might have trouble convincing kids on the internet of this, but it is there.

armin is too pop music, maybe not as succesful as momma spears, but pop music all the same,

im not saying that armin is bad, if you look to the left of the screen, you will see me blissing out at a party, while armin van buuren was spinning.

but there is pop in his music, just put on burned with desire and listen to it. There are just different degrees of pop music, this isnt a black and white issue. Its kinda like being gay, everyone is kinda gay, but not everyone is a flaming homo.

so britney is your flaming homo of pop musicians, armin maybe a few degrees smaller, like the curious type who faps with his pal in the hot tub while they are drunk at a party one night.

on this continuous scale of popishness, I would say that sammy ranks higher than the dutch trio, although sometimes it doesnt seem like they are very far apart when you compare some of the tracks.

But yeah, there are certain crucial differences between epic trance and pop music, and if there wasnt you'd be hearing more trance on the radio.

Well after skimming through the posts since page three, I still haven't seen any convincing arguments as to why epic trance of today is different from the stuff DJ Sammy or Lasgo or Milk Inc, etc... produces.

What I have seen are loads of ad hominem attacks, appeals to authority, and appeals to bandwagons.

Just because you don't like someone, or think they are somehow homosexual because of their arguments, doesn't mean their argument is actually false.

Just because someone says their music has property X, doesn't mean that it doesn't also have property Y.

Just because a lot of people think there's a difference between two different artists doesn't necessarily make it so.

So I ask again - what is it that separates the epic trance artists that "make it" in the commercial world, vs. the epic trance artists that don't get on a Ministry Of Sound compilation?

props to Unworldly... every post i've read of his has made perfect sense, and he bashes noone in the process *claps*

quote:

Originally posted by auranaut Just because I am part of the oldskool, more progressive trance audience, does not mean that a track I like can't be epic trance.

You can't be oldskool and be 16, son.

quote:

Originally posted by UWM You can't be oldskool and be 16, son.

But the music itself can be. Should I not be allowed to listen to a track just because it's 8 years old and I wasn't around at the time?

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