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anyways ive made my point, i know im right, and i know your wrong. . its pointles to argue about these issues sometimes because no one will win. and to be honest me or you dont know the actual truth.

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Originally posted by neiil_yates anyways ive made my point, i know im right, and i know your wrong. . its pointles to argue about these issues sometimes because no one will win. and to be honest me or you dont know the actual truth.

The truth about what exactly?

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Originally posted by occrider You really think that list will be able to stand up against peer review? FFS it's almost as bad as the Kerry is a flip-flopper list. Not to mention it's horribly dated.

hehehehe.......glad you liked my post

If only it wasnt all untrue......

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Originally posted by ogvh5150 Déjà vu post from some other forum: The "OH SO GREAT" United States of America Possibly from this page: A question-and-answer guide to the world's leading "rogue state" There is always going to be a boogey man. Whether it is the USA, Iraq, Iran, North Korea or Paul Oakenfold. People are so easily distracted, and so gullible.

Thanks for the links.....i was looking for something like that auctually, i didnt get it from either of those sources just came across it surfing the web and it seemed relevant to the topic in hand......yeah i like Robert Fisk not afraid to tell the truth...

Deja vu maybe but still relevant.

Heres another list from one of the lists you provided

Thanks again





Following is a list of prominent foreign leaders whose assassination
(or planning for same) the United States has been involved in since
the end of Second World War. The list does not include several
assassinations in various parts of the world carried out by anti-Castro
Cubans employed by CIA and headquartered in the United States:

LIST A:
1949 - KIm Koo, Korean opposition leader
1950's - CIA/Neo-Nazi hit list of numerous political figures in
West Germany
1955 - Jose' Antonio Remon, President of Panama
1950's Chou En-lai, Prime Minister of China, several attempts
on his life
1951 - Kim Il Sung, Premiere of North Korea
1950s (mid) - Claro M. Recto, Philippines opposition leader
1955 - Jawar Lal Nehru, Prime Minister of India
1959 and 1963 - Norodom Sihanouk, leader of Cambodia
1950s-70s - Jose Figueres, President of Costa Rica,
two attempts on his life
1961 - Francois "Papa Doc"Duvalier, leader of Haiti
1961 - Patrice Lumumba , Prime Minister of Congo (Zaire)
1961 - Gen. Rafael Trujillo, leader of Dominican Republic
1963 - Ngo Dinh Diem, President of South Vietnam
1960s - Fidel Castro, President of Cuba, more than
15 attempts on his life
1960s - Raul Castro, high official in government of Cuba
1965 - Francisco Caamanao, Dominican Republic opposition leader
1965 - Pierre Ngendandumwe, Prime Minister of Burundi
1967 - Che Guevara, Cuban leader
1970 - Salvadore Allende, President of Chile
1970 - General Rene Schneider, Commander-in-Chief of Army, Chile
1970s and 1981 - Gen. Omar Torrijos, leader of Panama
1972 - General Manuel Noriega, Chief of Panama Intelligence
1975 - Mobutu Sese Seko, President of Zaire
1976 - Michael Manley, Prime Minister of Jamaica
1983 - Miguel d'Escoto, Foreign Minister of Nicaragua
1984 - The nine commandantes of the Sandanista
National Directorate
1980's - Dr. Gerald Bull, Canadian Ballistics Scientist
assassinated by Mossad in Belgium.

quote:

Originally posted by Fir3start3r Maybe you could quote your source next time? There's no shame in admitting you couldn't think up things yourself. That's a nice U.S. bashing list but hardly supports the arguement of why the U.S. helps other nations the way it does. The point of the whole thread is why does the U.S. get involved? The european colonizer had no fucking business being here? What?? Good greif. What a convenient and selective history we have. Yes, HUGE pieces of land. Do a google and check it out yourself. I've said it before and I'll say it again; it was the era of exploration and colonization. To put a finer point on it; there was nothing wrong with doing what needed to be done at that point in time. Wealth was driven by LAND and the annexing of new lands. THAT was my point of answering the driveling question regarding the Native Americans (god knows why they even entered the equation).

Thats a very interesting post you made here.

I presume you are trying to rubbish me because you didnt agree with the list of questions that i posted albeit from another source.

If you look back over this thread you will see that i didnt post here until page 5 and it was a post in reply to Shakka regarding the UN.

But suddenly im quoted as saying this....by you


Originally posted by zig
HUGE pieces of land? What the fuck are you on? Before they were colonized/massacred/conquered they had ALL of the land. The european colonizer had no fucking business being here in the first place. So I don't really see what you're point is.


But if you go back and check on page 4 this quote was auctually made by somebody else.....rather curious.....the quote was auctually made by Shaolin_Z it wasnt made by me at all, i dont mind being quoted in the least, but putting quotes from other posters because it suits you to get at me and customizeing the post so my name shows up as the origional poster, well what can i say......mistake perhaps...maybe...if you dont like my posts debate them like everyone else, the curious thing to me is that your post came after several negative posts directed at me from other people on the forum, which is fine, but maybe you just lost the track of yourself in your haste to condemn me.......to quote yourself from from page 2 of this thread.

Amazing how selective arguements get when trying to make a point huh?

Sorry Zig; it was supposed to be shaolin_Z yes.
Bad cutting and pasting on my part

It's bad enough that this post is all over the place, I certainly don't need to confuse it

quote:

Originally posted by Fir3start3r Sorry Zig; it was supposed to be shaolin_Z yes. Bad cutting and pasting on my part It's bad enough that this post is all over the place, I certainly don't need to confuse it

Yeah no problems.....

I know i use the odd F**k in my posts, but i knew those particular ones werent mine.......

Anyway on the issue of America delivering democracy around the world, do they never learn from recent mistakes........

Abuses at Bagram airbase, Afghanistan

quote:

Originally posted by Yoepus Ireland.

when?!


i see you meant northern ireland.

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Originally posted by Yoepus Iraq required assistance during the Iran-Iraq war and recieved it from the USA. Or does that not count because Iraqis aren't people? Come on.. remember, where did Iraq get those WMD

I liked your response overall but I have to retort the above section:

How Western greed created Hussein's Iraq (thread)

What a tangled web we weave...

quote:

Originally posted by smokeape Right now nK and Iran are crying out for our help with their nuclear weapons programs. I believe the US can assist them with a few well placed strikes. BTW, we're not treating Iraqis like American Indians. We are, in fact, trying to let them govern themselves as a democratic society instead of suffering under dictatorial rule. Don't believe we did that with the Indians and don't believe we're trying to claim any of Iraq as sovereign territory either, so your premise is blatantly flawed from the onset. What we did in the United States with the Indians 150-200 years ago is what advanced civilizations had done as well in Europe, Africa, Asia, Australia, and South America in the past as well. And last time I checked, Europeans captured and imprisoned African natives that were brought to America for resale as slaves. [[[smoke]]]

That's a great post.

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Originally posted by George Smiley Do you know what would happen if America attacked North Korea?

Exactly what they've always wanted to happen. There seems to be a huge naivety that no one seems to notice.

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Originally posted by George Smiley Anyways, here's my two penneth (not two cents worth! bloody Americans should mind their own God damn business forcing their culture and silly sayings on the civilised world!!)

Opinion:
By your previous sentence you don't seem to have an original opinion. Just one that was manufactured for you.

Fact:
Iraq and the United States were once colonies of the United Kingdom, but you already knew that didn't you.

quote:

Originally posted by Yoepus Right You as a Brit have the least amount of right to critize food! Would you like some bland to go with your meal?

Good one. Is their food as tasty as wet cardboard?

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Originally posted by George Smiley Imperialism means controlling another country (or set of people) for your own gain...America is quite the imperial power

Again, America (The United States in this definition) was once a colony of the United Kingdom. What makes anyone think that it never was is beyond anyone's guess.

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Originally posted by neiil_yates and dont tell me its all Bush's fault because if any other president would of been in this spot, they would do the same thing.

You are right. I would add that even Kerry would have been the puppet as well.

quote:

Exactly what they've always wanted to happen. There seems to be a huge naivety that no one seems to notice.

What does that mean?

quote:

Opinion: By your previous sentence you don't seem to have an original opinion. Just one that was manufactured for you. Fact: Iraq and the United States were once colonies of the United Kingdom, but you already knew that didn't you.

What difference does it make if Iraq and US were British colonies?

And what do you mean I dont have an original opinion?

quote:

Again, America (The United States in this definition) was once a colony of the United Kingdom. What makes anyone think that it never was is beyond anyone's guess.

Now I really think you are starting to lose the plot!!!

When did I say the US was not a colony?!

please can you expand on the bits ive quoted cos you lost me...

quote:

Originally posted by George Smiley What does that mean?

Naive as in simple.

quote:

What difference does it make if Iraq and US were British colonies?

I guess you missed my use of the word once.

quote:

And what do you mean I dont have an original opinion?

Your anti-american sentiment, was it born with you or did you just find it in an alley?

quote:

Now I really think you are starting to lose the plot!!! When did I say the US was not a colony?! please can you expand on the bits ive quoted cos you lost me...

You can lead a horse to water...

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Originally posted by George Smiley Do you know what would happen if America attacked North Korea?

Well for one, the nK dictatorship would cease to exist along with about a third to half of their armed forces if they really want to resist and die for nothing. Aside from crude nuclear weapons, their army is truly third rate. Haven't progressed too much from the human wave tactics of the 50's. On the other hand, we've progressed significantly since the 50's in battlefield reconnaisance and intelligence and can virtually slaughter the waves when they mass anywhere and before they can impede our lines of attack/defense. In fact, any attack by nK on the south will only ensure their complete destruction as a country as we know it. Why do you think the south urges them on? The sK military can basically thwart any nK invasion without us. They want us on board to militarily defeat nK as a country so they can reunite the peninsula if the time comes and to stop the UN and China from intervening.


[[[smoke]]]

Riiiiight...I see I am gonna have to fill the gaps in myself?

quote:

Originally posted by ogvh5150 Naive as in simple.

Do you mean my assesment of what would happen if the US attacked N Korea is naive?

quote:

I guess you missed my use of the word once.

You said "FACT: Iraq and the United States were once colonies of the United Kingdom, but you already knew that didn't you" and what I want to know is what does that have to do with anything?

quote:

Your anti-american sentiment, was it born with you or did you just find it in an alley?

Ah, so unless I come out all supporting US policies I dont have an "original opinion"? Why should I support what America is doing when I do not think that is right? Do you have any original opinions? Cos from where I'm standing it seems your opinions are formed in the White House spin machine...

quote:

You can lead a horse to water...

Are you just typing the first words that come into your head?! You said why people think the US wasn't a colony is beyond anyone's guess. Now I asked you where I said that (or where I implied it) and as I assume that has something to do with me labelling the US as an imperial power - I ask what difference does it make if the US was once a colony or not? It's an imperial power by definition...

quote:

Originally posted by smokeape Well for one, the nK dictatorship would cease to exist along with about a third to half of their armed forces if they really want to resist and die for nothing. Aside from crude nuclear weapons, their army is truly third rate. Haven't progressed too much from the human wave tactics of the 50's. On the other hand, we've progressed significantly since the 50's in battlefield reconnaisance and intelligence and can virtually slaughter the waves when they mass anywhere and before they can impede our lines of attack/defense. In fact, any attack by nK on the south will only ensure their complete destruction as a country as we know it. Why do you think the south urges them on? The sK military can basically thwart any nK invasion without us. They want us on board to militarily defeat nK as a country so they can reunite the peninsula if the time comes and to stop the UN and China from intervening. [[[smoke]]]

Actually North Korea has an extremely powerful army, so what you say above is nonsense...

quote:

Originally posted by ogvh5150 Naive as in simple.

Irony is such a beeeeutiful thing.

They have the MiG-15 also known as the............... FAGOT!

More boats of people come to America then anywhere else filled with people wanting a better life...and we provide it to them....

Bash America all you want...but it IS the land where you can become your dreams...

How many boats of people come into your countries?

quote:

Originally posted by tiesto14 More boats of people come to America then anywhere else filled with people wanting a better life...and we provide it to them.... Bash America all you want...but it IS the land where you can become your dreams... How many boats of people come into your countries?

I need to sleep but that is an utterly quashable statement.

quote:

Originally posted by George Smiley Do you mean my assesment of what would happen if the US attacked N Korea is naive?

You would be naive into thinking that any aggression against North Korea was done on sheer accident.

quote:

You said "FACT: Iraq and the United States were once colonies of the United Kingdom, but you already knew that didn't you" and what I want to know is what does that have to do with anything?

You act as if the US has a mind of it's own.

quote:

Ah, so unless I come out all supporting US policies I dont have an "original opinion"? Why should I support what America is doing when I do not think that is right? Do you have any original opinions? Cos from where I'm standing it seems your opinions are formed in the White House spin machine...

Your anti-american sentiment; was it born with you or did you conjure this up out of your own free will? Me a spin machine, that's funny. I am not a supporter of nor do I condone any foreign or domestic policy from this or any administration. What I can tell you is that you are trying to push your opinion of anti-americanism as if that is going to change anything. I am also alighting you of the burden that the opinion gathered in your mind is something most likely brought on by some external force, most likely by any recent events. This is propogated by your self indulgence of the matter by colorful comments like "bloody Americans should mind their own God damn business". We "bloody Americans" have no control of the government and it's wanton actions that you speak so highly of.

quote:

Are you just typing the first words that come into your head?! You said why people think the US wasn't a colony is beyond anyone's guess. Now I asked you where I said that (or where I implied it) and as I assume that has something to do with me labelling the US as an imperial power - I ask what difference does it make if the US was once a colony or not? It's an imperial power by definition...

The US is not acting alone despite what you think is the contrary. If you think the US is acting alone I have a bridge on the River Thames to sell you.

quote:

Originally posted by tiesto14 More boats of people come to America then anywhere else filled with people wanting a better life...and we provide it to them.... Bash America all you want...but it IS the land where you can become your dreams... How many boats of people come into your countries?

>UNHCR<

quote:

Originally posted by tiesto14 More boats of people come to America then anywhere else filled with people wanting a better life...and we provide it to them.... Bash America all you want...but it IS the land where you can become your dreams... How many boats of people come into your countries?

Well according to the United Nations, the number of asylum seekers in Western Europe is 349,727 and in Central Europe there are 20,537 so if we're talking about the EU as a whole (3 Central European countries are not in the EU - Turkey, Bulgaria, Romania) there are 370,264 people there who have claimed asylum. The number for North America is 392,264 but that would also include Canada, so just comparing the two continents, its pretty evenly matched, altho I would hazard a guess and say there are a significant number of asylum seekers in Canada, meaning there is more than likely a greater number of asylum seekers in the EU than in the US. Either way, your talking out of your arse

link

quote:

Originally posted by Dervish >UNHCR<

Jinx!!

quote:

Originally posted by ogvh5150 1 You would be naive into thinking that any aggression against North Korea was done on sheer accident. 2You act as if the US has a mind of it's own. 3Your anti-american sentiment; was it born with you or did you conjure this up out of your own free will? Me a spin machine, that's funny. I am not a supporter of nor do I condone any foreign or domestic policy from this or any administration. What I can tell you is that you are trying to push your opinion of anti-americanism as if that is going to change anything. I am also alighting you of the burden that the opinion gathered in your mind is something most likely brought on by some external force, most likely by any recent events. This is propogated by your self indulgence of the matter by colorful comments like "bloody Americans should mind their own God damn business". We "bloody Americans" have no control of the government and it's wanton actions that you speak so highly of. 4The US is not acting alone despite what you think is the contrary. If you think the US is acting alone I have a bridge on the River Thames to sell you.

1Ehh?
2Ehhh?
3We Americans have no control over our government.... (how democratic.... a beacon to the rest of us)
4True, other nations do as the US does, it acts for its own that is yours as an American citizen's best intrests.

quote:

Originally posted by ogvh5150 You would be naive into thinking that any aggression against North Korea was done on sheer accident.

Eh? Right, I am talking about a deliberate strike on North Korea by the US. I have no idea what you are now talking about!

quote:

You act as if the US has a mind of it's own.

Eh?

quote:

Your anti-american sentiment; was it born with you or did you conjure this up out of your own free will? Me a spin machine, that's funny.

Did I say you were a spin machine?

quote:

I am not a supporter of nor do I condone any foreign or domestic policy from this or any administration.

So everything you have said about me being "anti-American" applies to you too?

quote:

What I can tell you is that you are trying to push your opinion of anti-americanism as if that is going to change anything.

Eh?

quote:

I am also alighting you of the burden that the opinion gathered in your mind is something most likely brought on by some external force, most likely by any recent events.

No shit Sherlock!

quote:

This is propogated by your self indulgence of the matter by colorful comments like "bloody Americans should mind their own God damn business". We "bloody Americans" have no control of the government and it's wanton actions that you speak so highly of.

I tell ya something about "bloody Americans"! They have no bloody concept of sarcasm! But now I am maybe starting to understand where you are coming from...I have no problem with Americans, I'm not anti-American as in I hate Americans! Anti-American for me means anti-US policy. I also describe myself as anti-Israel but thats the policies of their government, not the people. You seriously need to make the distinction

quote:

The US is not acting alone despite what you think is the contrary. If you think the US is acting alone I have a bridge on the River Thames to sell you.

I said the US is an imperial power, if you want to apply that to other countries you would be perfectly within your right to do so (and I would probably agree) but that takes nothing away from the current topic that America IS an imperial power...

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