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Originally posted by Aquarian Those are purely emotive reasons, not logical ones. Beauty is a subjective thing. If we're both standing on top of that mountain looking at the sunrise, you see god's work - and I see a giant ball of hydrogen and helium shining light over a world full of flawed and imperfect things that aren't living in harmony with eachother.

yeah that was my point hehe. That the perception defines the reality and the rules you have for it.

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Originally posted by newtotrance Tom Cruise - being right - well let's proclaim him a god. That would be brillant to see. Well let's see how to start this off - I believe in the Christian God yes - and my beliefs do not have to be the only solitary thing that the world follows. I just find that believing in anything such as Scientology or other forms of religious tradition very hard to fathom. I myself was brought up in a Christian home and in a Christian church but I also grew up in the public school system and I have friends that all follow their own beliefs. However, to draw the attention back to peace and harmony - isn't all of humanity to try and get all with each other despite of what each other's beliefs are?

Couple of questions... not to attack Christianity, but to find out what your christian perspective sees.

1)
As you are an example. There is a very high correlation between your religion and your immediate environment. If you were born in SumAtRa then you would probably believe in iSLam, if you were born in Punjab you would probably be a Sikh etc. Why do *you* think God wants to be interpreted differently by different people?

2)
As you noted earlier. Jesus's big move is to die on the cross "for our sins". Dying on a cross was a popular form of execution back then. For what purpose did all those people's death serve?

not to offend anyone but . . .

the bible has been maid into the biggest peice of shit ever. a long time ago some dudes wrote a book . . . long story short the book is right, you are rong, there is only one god (the one our book refers to of corse) and if you say otherwise we made a place just for you

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Originally posted by Aquarian Inbreeding causes severe genetic deformations. Even if you had two of every dog species and made them inter-breed with eachother, you'd still get very unhealthy offspring. You need a very large population sample to start a species. Even so, the fact that pure german shepards and pure dobermans exist today would have implied that these two dogs of the same race would've had to breed with eachother, and their offspring amongst themselves.

Yes, by this logic you would need a large population to start off with to avoid inbreeding and a bunch of fukt up offspring, but you have to wonder. If these laws apply to all species, then how, according to the most common scientific theory, did we all begin. If we all began with one molecule and continued to spread and evolve over millions of years, how did we come to be. Throughout that whole process there had to be some sort of inbreeding. in fact, through that theory that was a LOT of it, so how did we avoid genetic mutations and still evolve into millions of different types of healthy species over the years.

I'm on your side, but i'd figure i'd raise the question for debates sake

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Originally posted by D-res Yes, by this logic you would need a large population to start off with to avoid inbreeding and a bunch of fukt up offspring, but you have to wonder. If these laws apply to all species, then how, according to the most common scientific theory, did we all begin. If we all began with one molecule and continued to spread and evolve over millions of years, how did we come to be. Throughout that whole process there had to be some sort of inbreeding. in fact, through that theory that was a LOT of it, so how did we avoid genetic mutations and still evolve into millions of different types of healthy species over the years.

Well I'm by no means an expert on genetics, I'd probably have to ask my brother for a clear answer on that. I'd presume it would be either because multiple cells have mutated at once (why would only one out of thousands of billions mutate and not the others?) and/or the fact that inbreeding amongst unicellular or microscopic organisms and bacteria doesn't seem to be a problem. You only start getting deformations in complex beings, and it would have taken a few million years to have animals complex enough for that, and by then there would have been a large enough population sample.

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Originally posted by Subey Couple of questions... not to attack Christianity, but to find out what your christian perspective sees. 1) As you are an example. There is a very high correlation between your religion and your immediate environment. If you were born in SumAtRa then you would probably believe in iSLam, if you were born in Punjab you would probably be a Sikh etc. Why do *you* think God wants to be interpreted differently by different people? 2) As you noted earlier. Jesus's big move is to die on the cross "for our sins". Dying on a cross was a popular form of execution back then. For what purpose did all those people's death serve?

good #1.

but for #2, for a christian, it is more than that. jesus was said to be sinless, divine, and perfect. and we, the humans were sinful, undivine, and inperfect, incapable of saving ourselves, because we dont have the power not to sin all the time. we all lie, or do something which in the bible, god had forbidden. we are said to be accountable of all our actions on the day of judgement when the human race finally pays for everything it has done. everyone deserves to be punished in hell.

the jews were sacrificing animals to pay for their sins. a way to "appease" god's anger. jesus to the christian is said to be the "ultimate" sacrifice, because he was perfect, divine, sinless, and of god. his sacrifice was enough to appease god forever, now u just have to believe him, and u are now his sheep on his right side on the day of judgement. and the rest of humanity, are the goats, who will be on his left, and he will tell them, "Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels." this is why its so important to christianity. this is basically the #1 doctrine of the churches.

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Originally posted by Subey Couple of questions... not to attack Christianity, but to find out what your christian perspective sees. 1) As you are an example. There is a very high correlation between your religion and your immediate environment. If you were born in SumAtRa then you would probably believe in iSLam, if you were born in Punjab you would probably be a Sikh etc. Why do *you* think God wants to be interpreted differently by different people? 2) As you noted earlier. Jesus's big move is to die on the cross "for our sins". Dying on a cross was a popular form of execution back then. For what purpose did all those people's death serve?

Your number one is a very good question. I have spent a great deal of time studying a number of religions partially in an attempt to answer the same question. My thinking is this..... God waited to reveal himself (through prophacy) until the clusters of people to whom he was to reveal himself had reached a certain level of development (note that the Indians/Aryians, Greeks, Jews, Myans, Incas, were all at nearly the same stage in development/technology when they formed complex organized religions). Due to cultural factors unique to different areas of the world the various peoples of the world did not have a common frame of reference. Because the various civilizations did not have a shared frame of reference God had to alter how he revealed himself in each instance so that the people would understand. This resulted in different stories and imagry being used to convey essentially the same messages. The differing stories and images led to differing customs and practices. It is these different stories and differing customs and practices that are the divisive factors in the world's faith communities, however, the central messages of all the major religions are very similar.
This is how I have reconsiled the existance of differing religions but the presence of only one God to myself. In truth that's all that really maters when it comes to faith... that you believe and that you take meaning from it.

As for your second question it has been answered fairly well already so I will not bother to post a redundant answer.

I can't say that God exist, but I can't say he doesn't exist. So, I'm agnostic.

quote:

Originally posted by djwright not to offend anyone but . . . the bible has been maid into the biggest peice of shit ever. a long time ago some dudes wrote a book . . . long story short the book is right, you are rong, there is only one god (the one our book refers to of corse) and if you say otherwise we made a place just for you

Actually a whole bunch of dudes wrote a whol ebunch of different books some about one God, some included a female Goddess, some had one version of doctrine others had other versions, some had crazy shit aboiut angels and demons etc... then a bunch of important church dudes had a little meeting and decided which parts were going to be official, which parts were apocryphal and which parts were heresy and put all the official parts into what we now know as the bible....

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Originally posted by astroboy Actually a whole bunch of dudes wrote a whol ebunch of different books some about one God, some included a female Goddess, some had one version of doctrine others had other versions, some had crazy shit aboiut angels and demons etc... then a bunch of important church dudes had a little meeting and decided which parts were going to be official, which parts were apocryphal and which parts were heresy and put all the official parts into what we now know as the bible....

yea, its called the canon, the measure or "evaluation" of a book based on "divine inspiration", inspiration by god, the author's credibility, its doctrinal content, and authority. the entire new testament was written by eye-witnesses to jesus's ministry or knew one of the disciples of jesus. example, Luke never met jesus, but he was very well aquainted with the disciples.

yet, with the apocraphe's, there were doctrinal errors, or the author's credibility was in question. for example, the gospel of thomas. the early church fathers really didnt know whether the disciple thomas really wrote this book, also the book contained several questionable things in it to rule it out of canon. there were many fakes, and only unless there was a "without a doubt" knowledge, was the book considered a canon. also, some of the author's never met jesus or his disciples which automatically ruled them out.

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Originally posted by Subey Couple of questions... not to attack Christianity, but to find out what your christian perspective sees. 1) As you are an example. There is a very high correlation between your religion and your immediate environment. If you were born in SumAtRa then you would probably believe in iSLam, if you were born in Punjab you would probably be a Sikh etc. Why do *you* think God wants to be interpreted differently by different people? 2) As you noted earlier. Jesus's big move is to die on the cross "for our sins". Dying on a cross was a popular form of execution back then. For what purpose did all those people's death serve?

well I'll let my g.f "newtotrance" answer that one. Be nice to her...I'll sit in the background, waiting for a chance to....ya know.....crush someone....mwahahaha

Part of the picture that forms in my mind's eye when I try to reconcile all the various manifestations of religion is something like this.

X is the Divine, and a part of that is the engine of creation.

And each religion has been given a piece of the engine, and told "this is divine truth". Which it is.

To continue the analogy then the christian has say the "piston", and the muslim has the "cylinder", and the Jew has the "valve".

The problem obviously, is that each religion has mistaken their "part" as the whole. As a result this causes certain aspects of the truth to be over emphasized, and others to be minimized. As Mace Windu might say, there is no balance.

Religion is the Opium of the Masses!!

quote:

Originally posted by Subey The problem obviously, is that each religion has mistaken their "part" as the whole. As a result this causes certain aspects of the truth to be over emphasized, and others to be minimized. As Mace Windu might say, there is no balance.

what if a religion is false? the appeal of a religion is that it always has some aspect of truth to it, but sometimes, they add false things on top of the truth, or totally twist the truth to make it false.

Perhaps, God is not a neo-Zeus with a white beard sitting on an ivory throne... perhaps, God is what binds the universe, what binds atoms. Maybe, He is the emotions you feel, the air you breathe. Maybe, He is what makes the earth spin, the sun light or the tide pull. Perhaps, He exists in a thought or an action. Maybe, as Jesus said, God exists in a mustard seed and his kingdom is within.

The first rule of teaching is to explain and relate your concepts in a manner which your audience will understand, and that seems to me what He did.

An answer to Subey questions.....

I think that God chose to have different cultures interpret him differently because people understand things different and with the beliefs reflecting the environment this would serve as a way that people could understand and comprehend the message that God was trying to get across to them.

Since death on a cross was so popular back then the deaths that took place at that time served the purpose of martrydom and punishment that showed that the roman law prevailed. If a person was a murderer they would be sentenced to be crucified upon a cross. This would probably serve the purpose of showing that the Emperor was the law. However, I believe in Jesus' case that death upon a cross served the purpose of martrydom. Jesus was the first martyr.

I think that other cultures have molded God into their own perspective upon how they think he is reflected and should be presented.

Far Side wins.

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Originally posted by d-miurge I can't say that God exist, but I can't say he doesn't exist. So, I'm agnostic.

Man up and pick a side. I can't say santa clause exists, but I can't say he doesn't exist. So I'm agnostic about his existence. Continue ad nauseum with anything ...

And Pascal's Wager doesn't work.

to hell with that Big Bang theory . God created everything you see

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Originally posted by NEWYORKTRANCER to hell with that Big Bang theory . God created everything you see

he should sign his signature in the corner then

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Originally posted by kr00t0n he should sign his signature in the corner then

He did sign his signature in the stars. lol And in the rest of the world even in you!

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Originally posted by newtotrance He did sign his signature in the stars. lol And in the rest of the world even in you!

even in us nonbelieving heathens?! *gasp* i think i just converted.

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Originally posted by djallure The first rule of teaching is to explain and relate your concepts in a manner which your audience will understand, and that seems to me what He did.

I didn't learn how to do that from Jesus, I learnt how to do it from Doctor Johnny Fever on WKRP in the episode where he explained an atom to a gang member

quote:

Originally posted by occrider And Pascal's Wager doesn't work.

Yeah, pascal was pretty dumb for saying that actually.

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