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Posted by buchnaner on Jul-29-2005 05:47:

let's face it. vinyl has its limits. some creative DJs are skilled enough to take these limits and find ways to overcome them, but there are still limits. Ableton has limits as well...but we have yet to find them. cliched as the phrase is, the possibilities are endless

people need to try it before they knock it. while a few haters have, MOST HAVNE'T. this awesome music has no room for ignorance! it chaps my ass to think that some people don't respect ableton users, just b/c they don't understand how to use the fucking technology.

w/ regards to laptop DJing not "looking cool" or laptop DJs not doing anything to pump up the crowd, fuck that shit. i don't need to slam a button or whatever to get pumped up. true, the rituals aren't the same for the different mediums, but we'll find our own ways to channel the energy.

so how 'bout dem apples?

Posted by DJ_Sudden on Jul-29-2005 21:55:

No doubt that a laptop performance with dj software(ex:ableton live) would be amazing, creative, perfect, ...

In my opinion, djing is a skill that needs a developed ear for music which is able to mix music Live. No matter how perfect the mixes with laptops are they are not truely live. With ableton for example, you can preview and fix your mix, before the audience hears it, and the beats are always matched in time, therefore, minimizing errors and risks. When risks are completely taken away from an act it can not be called a live performance/set anymore. It takes the energy of the crowd away knowing that the performer can not make any mistakes with that laptop the whole time and that the mixes are pre-recorded and previewed, in comparison to knowing that the performer has the SKILLS to prevent those mistakes from happening and he is doing it live in front of your eyes and not (1 min or whatever before).

If we consider no difference between an Actual DJ and a Laptop performer, next thing you know is that little by little the digital laptop would not only do the beatmatching and keeping it perfectly in time, but it also suggests track selection and mixing templates that you can choose from and then it will all get automatic. So would we then call that really djing ?

Posted by Clovis on Jul-29-2005 22:00:

quote:
Originally posted by DJ_Sudden
No doubt that a laptop performance with dj software(ex:ableton live) would be amazing, creative, perfect, ...

In my opinion, djing is a skill that needs a developed ear for music which is able to mix music Live. No matter how perfect the mixes with laptops are they are not truely live. With ableton for example, you can preview and fix your mix, before the audience hears it, and the beats are always matched in time, therefore, minimizing errors and risks. When risks are completely taken away from an act it can not be called a live performance/set anymore. It takes the energy of the crowd away knowing that the performer can not make any mistakes with that laptop the whole time and that the mixes are pre-recorded and previewed, in comparison to knowing that the performer has the SKILLS to prevent those mistakes from happening and he is doing it live in front of your eyes and not (1 min or whatever before).

If we consider no difference between an Actual DJ and a Laptop performer, next thing you know is that little by little the digital laptop would not only do the beatmatching and keeping it perfectly in time, but it also suggests track selection and mixing templates that you can choose from and then it will all get automatic. So would we then call that really djing ?

I'm still looking for that function in Ableton where you can preview a live mix before it happens. Unless the entire set is pre-recorded, AFAIK you cant change anything.

FYI the DJ's currently using Live at gigs (Sasha/G&D) mix all their tracks LIVE right in front of you...there is no pre-recording going on.

Have you ever used Ableton live? Because it doesnt sound like it...

Posted by Boomer187 on Jul-29-2005 22:24:

Posted by DJ_Sudden on Jul-29-2005 22:32:

quote:
Originally posted by Clovis86
I'm still looking for that function in Ableton where you can preview a live mix before it happens. Unless the entire set is pre-recorded, AFAIK you cant change anything.

FYI the DJ's currently using Live at gigs (Sasha/G&D) mix all their tracks LIVE right in front of you...there is no pre-recording going on.

Have you ever used Ableton live? Because it doesnt sound like it...

I just got it, but haven't played yet. Read the manual partially and I have to say the 5 has alot of features. Don't get me wrong I love technology and accept the fact that it's way more amazing, and gives you endless possibilities. But there is no room for error. you can master that thing just by reading the manual and a lil bit of practice. I think laptops are perfect for big performances, where there should be no error. Personally I just don't like that idea of going everything with a laptop, I don't see any particalar skills needed.

They mix LIVE, but do you agree that there is a alot more time to perfect a mix and you are able to see it? maybe you can even start the next mix right after? wouldn't that be pre-recorded/pre-done ?

Posted by Hypersky on Jul-29-2005 22:41:

The true abstract skill of DJing lies in track selection, which Ableton does not help with. Thats what seperates the bedroom/local DJs with the big boys. Mixing has very little to do with it in the end - its the unique ability to create atmosphere with great tracks.

Posted by buchnaner on Jul-29-2005 22:50:

quote:
Originally posted by DJ_Sudden
No matter how perfect the mixes with laptops are they are not truely live. With ableton for example, you can preview and fix your mix, before the audience hears it, and the beats are always matched in time, therefore, minimizing errors and risks. When risks are completely taken away from an act it can not be called a live performance/set anymore. It takes the energy of the crowd away knowing that the performer can not make any mistakes with that laptop the whole time and that the mixes are pre-recorded and previewed, in comparison to knowing that the performer has the SKILLS to prevent those mistakes from happening and he is doing it live in front of your eyes and not (1 min or whatever before).

imagine 20 years ago when DJing was first being considered an art form. cynics probably said, "this takes no talent. all they're doing is playing other peoples pre-recorded music. this isn't live, there's no musical talent involved here. the DJs are not the ones actually playing the instruments. there's no risk, how can a DJ screw up something that's been pre-recorded? its brainless, blah blah blah".

sounds silly to us now, b/c we realize that there is an artform in DJing. a jazz band playing live in front of an audience and a DJ playing for a crowd is two different styles of music, two different ways of presenting music. one doesn't deserve less credit than the other. DIFFERENT DOES NOT MEAN UNSKILLED.

when people use the term "live" w/ regards to DJing, its a bit of an oxymoron, because of course it isn't "live". all the music has been created in a studio.

because of the very fact that these musicians (DJs) don't have to worry about playing all these other instruments LIVE means that they can focus on other things: track selection, emotional flow, mixing and mashing.

the same goes for ableton: if DJs dont have to worry about beat-matching or other limits of vinyl, they can focus on the music, and create works that are completely unique.

Posted by JenniferRene on Jul-29-2005 22:54:

quote:
Originally posted by buchnaner

when people use the term "live" w/ regards to DJing, its a bit of an oxymoron, because of course it isn't "live". all the music has been created in a studio.

because of the very fact that these musicians (DJs) don't have to worry about playing all these other instruments LIVE means that they can focus on other things: track selection, emotional flow, mixing and mashing.

the same goes for ableton: if DJs dont have to worry about beat-matching or other limits of vinyl, they can focus on the music, and create works that are completely unique.

you have a really good point

Posted by DJ_Sudden on Jul-29-2005 23:31:

by live I meant live mixing, and not live music. With a laptop you can see your mix before it's time to play it. You see the output before it is outputted. Would that be considered live mixing?

I guess I misunderstood the thread's topic:

Is Laptop DJing really djing?

From a dj stand point:
No, it is a laptop peformance
From someone-in-the-club's point of view:
Yes, and it's much better, creative, and unique.

I though DJing was
one part Beat Matching/Mixing/keeping beats in time,
one part Track Selection,
one part transition and EQs

Turns out its
One part Track Selection

I guess a dj is someone who creates a journey-like atmosphere by playing music by any means.

Anyhow, just a side note, if big dj's(sasha,G&D) would not have supported laptops+ableton for their whole sets, it would not be considered as a replacement. by the way, I wonder how much they get paid for supporting?

Posted by buchnaner on Jul-29-2005 23:36:

quote:
Originally posted by DJ_Sudden
Anyhow, just a side note, if big dj's(sasha,G&D) would not have supported laptops+ableton for their whole sets, it would not be considered as a replacement. by the way, I wonder how much they get paid for supporting?

^so cynical!

i disagree. they use it b/c they see the vast potential of such tools. if they didn't use it, other younger generation DJs would have (and will) master the tool and become incredible DJs in their own right.

and why should they be considered laptop performances? we don't call them "vinyl performances"

Posted by Hypersky on Jul-29-2005 23:58:

quote:
Originally posted by DJ_Sudden
by live I meant live mixing, and not live music. With a laptop you can see your mix before it's time to play it. You see the output before it is outputted. Would that be considered live mixing?

I guess I misunderstood the thread's topic:

Is Laptop DJing really djing?

From a dj stand point:
No, it is a laptop peformance
From someone-in-the-club's point of view:
Yes, and it's much better, creative, and unique.

I though DJing was
one part Beat Matching/Mixing/keeping beats in time,
one part Track Selection,
one part transition and EQs

Turns out its
One part Track Selection

I guess a dj is someone who creates a journey-like atmosphere by playing music by any means.

Anyhow, just a side note, if big dj's(sasha,G&D) would not have supported laptops+ableton for their whole sets, it would not be considered as a replacement. by the way, I wonder how much they get paid for supporting?

Its subjective in the end. 20 years ago John Mellencamp and Marc Almond had a public spat about playing LIVE instruments vs sequenced music (as Almond, then a member of Soft Cell, was a propnent of). Mellencamp's argument was that he didn't think it took much skill to simply push a button and call it making music. 20 years later, it seems as though Mellencamp has lost the arguement, as we've come to learn that the confluence of creativity and technology has been a good thing for popular (as well as underground) music. It would seem absurd for someone to imply that there is less skill in making music with computers than with LIVE instruments today, and yet that same mentality seems to permeate through the generations every time a new technology is introduced, that threatens to change the fundemental way that music is disseminated to an audience.

It happened with the music industry v Napster (and others), it happend with CD decks were introduced, when vinyl 'purists' casually dismissed CD mixing as not having the tactile flair that came with mixing records, and yet today mixing CDs has for the most part become a standard. We can apply the same standard to Ableton and other lap top based platforms. They will become the norm in the near future, at which time the old skool people who believe DJing is simply about beatmatching two circular objects together will either have to adapt or be left behind. Electronic music is inherently a technology based art form, and the artists who embrace new technology are the ones who will get ahead.

Posted by buchnaner on Jul-30-2005 00:04:

^ word. couldn't have said it better myself

Posted by DJ_Sudden on Jul-30-2005 00:05:

I guess we can call it anything, however, I personally believe that oe who can beat match by ear is true DJ and one who completely relies on a laptop for a performance is not.

Posted by Zombie0729 on Jul-30-2005 00:33:

quote:
Originally posted by DJ_Sudden
I guess we can call it anything, however, I personally believe that oe who can beat match by ear is true DJ and one who completely relies on a laptop for a performance is not.

yeah, we got your point. your just wrong. DJing is moving on, jump on the train or be left behind(and you won't be the only one who gets left behind TRUST ME)

Posted by DJ_Sudden on Jul-30-2005 00:33:

quote:
Originally posted by Hypersky
Its subjective in the end. 20 years ago John Mellencamp and Marc Almond had a public spat about playing LIVE instruments vs sequenced music (as Almond, then a member of Soft Cell, was a propnent of). Mellencamp's argument was that he didn't think it took much skill to simply push a button and call it making music. 20 years later, it seems as though Mellencamp has lost the arguement, as we've come to learn that the confluence of creativity and technology has been a good thing for popular (as well as underground) music. It would seem absurd for someone to imply that there is less skill in making music with computers than with LIVE instruments today, and yet that same mentality seems to permeate through the generations every time a new technology is introduced, that threatens to change the fundemental way that music is disseminated to an audience.

It happened with the music industry v Napster (and others), it happend with CD decks were introduced, when vinyl 'purists' casually dismissed CD mixing as not having the tactile flair that came with mixing records, and yet today mixing CDs has for the most part become a standard. We can apply the same standard to Ableton and other lap top based platforms. They will become the norm in the near future, at which time the old skool people who believe DJing is simply about beatmatching two circular objects together will either have to adapt or be left behind. Electronic music is inherently a technology based art form, and the artists who embrace new technology are the ones who will get ahead.

I totally agree. I just think that as far as just mixing songs live goes, it's a different skill to beatmatch and mix, than to use a laptop to perfor the tast. When using ableton there are so many different things you can do, that it's more like a Performance, than just mixing songs(dj def i had in my head)... I did not say its not art, I was thinking very subjectively about the subject and was stuck with the idea of a dj being someone who switched from one track to another, creatively of course.

When I started to DJ I did not have any equipment and did everything on the computer(Virtual DJ), on which the computer did the beat matching... When I spoke to one of the DJs, he really emphasized the fact of being able to beatmatch by only your ears. He believed that if you want to be a true dj you need to master the skill... I practiced and finally got the concept and thought of it an a skill...But this was a year a ago...

I have an open mind and see that things are changing in the DJ world, infact i already got the Ableton 5 last week, and I'm gonna start practicing and master it soon.

Posted by DJ_Sudden on Jul-30-2005 00:37:

quote:
Originally posted by Zombie0729
yeah, we got your point. your just wrong. DJing is moving on, jump on the train or be left behind(and you won't be the only one who gets left behind TRUST ME)

I just expressed my opinion. I don't think there is anything WRONG with it.

And why would I get left behind?

Posted by Zombie0729 on Jul-30-2005 00:57:

quote:
Originally posted by DJ_Sudden
I just expressed my opinion. I don't think there is anything WRONG with it.

And why would I get left behind?

because as much as DJing is an artistic form of expression. It's also a business.

You, as a DJ, have competition... infact a lot of it. Don't you realize there is very little that seperates DJ's... and that every major act that has moved on to ableton has complained that there was no difference between what he was sounding like compared to some kid in his bedroom.

we're tired of sounding the same

Posted by Clovis on Jul-30-2005 01:24:

Posted by DJ_Sudden on Jul-30-2005 02:09:

quote:
Originally posted by Clovis86
I am still looking for that "preview your mix" function...

I read it in one of the interviews( sasha, or .. I dunno)

Anyhow, I looked in the manual, and searched for previewing, and it came up with a few things, however I don't exactly know, since I have not really messed around with it. But search the PDF manual and check resampling, something like being able to take a snap shot of part the Set and redirecting to a output channel (headphone). I will figure it out some time and will difinately let you know. Do you have 4 or 5?

Posted by Clovis on Jul-30-2005 02:22:

quote:
Originally posted by DJ_Sudden
I read it in one of the interviews( sasha, or .. I dunno)

Anyhow, I looked in the manual, and searched for previewing, and it came up with a few things, however I don't exactly know, since I have not really messed around with it. But search the PDF manual and check resampling, something like being able to take a snap shot of part the Set and redirecting to a output channel (headphone). I will figure it out some time and will difinately let you know. Do you have 4 or 5?

I have 4 and 5 Beta. And I have seen how Sasha uses Live...no clue what you're talking about. As far as I can tell he doesnt have any previewing capabilities beyond what you could do with headphones and turntables.

Posted by Danny Ocean on Jul-30-2005 02:32:

you can still trainwreck in ableton....and fuck up...

Posted by DJ_Sudden on Jul-30-2005 02:40:

quote:
Originally posted by Danny Ocean
you can still trainwreck in ableton....and fuck up...

Now that will be a real fuck up...

That is a problem that should be been fixed if the person had practiced mixing the song on the program, because it saves your Warp points and plays them in time with the Warp points of the other song.

Big, Big mistake...

Posted by Bob_Motamedi on Jul-30-2005 04:02:

Ok....

Lots of varrying points.

I like Anthony's post about sounding the same as every other dj.

I also believe that to sound different you have to MAKE YOUR OWN MUSIC...

Dont mash up and smash up and crash up 19 songs in ableton to sound different.

Go and spend money on fruity loops and reason, learn, struggle, fight...and give birth to your own sound!!

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