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-- [Politics] Has John Howard done a good job?
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Pkc, your a fucken numpty, who has no idea what the hard life is. What you think people who have money dont work hard? Get off your high horse.

As for the gypsies, they can keep they mass murderers over there, they arent suited to a country like Australia.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN yeah, i cant believe there are people that arent content with living in war-torn countries, full of mass murder, torture and poverty.

Yep, thats fine. Theres also a lot of illegal immigrants amongst your angelic 'refugees'.

And don't forget, these boats leave from Indonesia. So they have left their war torn country (lets say Afghanistan), and then have probably travelled through 5 countries before getting to Indonesia, where they then get on a boat for Australia. So, they have gone through 6 safe countries to reach us. Thats not a refugee.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN totally. theres no way in the world that education (the great liberal democratic equaliser) should be equally available to all people.

it is, its called HECS. it means you don't have to pay for your tertiary education until you earn a certain amount of money after you graduate. Therefore it IS available to everyone. Can I make that any simpler? People just don't want to have to pay at all, which is ridiculous.

Much respect Trance Nutter.

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Originally posted by Paulie Pkc, your a fucken numpty, who has no idea what the hard life is. What you think people who have money dont work hard? Get off your high horse.

read the previous 9 pages really SLOWLY, (get someone to sound out any of the words that are a bit too tough). nowhere have i made a statement even resembling this.

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Originally posted by Paulie As for the gypsies, they can keep they mass murderers over there, they arent suited to a country like Australia.

yep. illegals=war criminal for sure

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Originally posted by Trance Nutter it is, its called HECS. it means you don't have to pay for your tertiary education until you earn a certain amount of money after you graduate. Therefore it IS available to everyone. Can I make that any simpler? People just don't want to have to pay at all, which is ridiculous

haha, gee thanks for taking the time out to explain HECS to me!
i wasnt disputing the HECS arrangement, but

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Originally posted by Paulie Too many people expect a free ride in this world thats the problem. Higher education is expensive, you expect the government to pay for everything in your life? Were a country full of handouts,

makes it sound as though affordable education is a privilege rather than a right. or a hand-out ffs

$50 to the first person that can find me a howard supporter that

a) has spent any time studying international relations or politics (ie enough time to see how things really work, and not just the way the government tells the newspapers tell us)
b) has a heart
c) has a brain

as any one of the three criteria above precludes rational support for the "liberal" government of this country. sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but its true.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN makes it sound as though affordable education is a privilege rather than a right. or a hand-out ffs

It is a privilege, and you should be DAMN thankful for what you get. What too many dickheads forget is just how good we have it in Australia.

Think about it - you can go to Uni, study for as long as you want and not have to pay ANYTHING (except the bullshit Union/Facilities/Activities Fees). Thats zip . . . nada . . . NOTHING. But then when you get out and start earning the money that your Uni education has allowed you to do, you start paying between 3 and 6 % of your income back to an interest free loan as a contribution to your own education.

Go to the US - Land of the Free, Home of the Brave, Lucky Country, all that bullshit - Money upfront each year or no study folks. And not a pissy $5000 a year that you have here, we are talking tens of thousands of dollars.

So yes, affordable education IS a privilege extended to Australians.

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$50 to the first person that can find me a howard supporter that a) has spent any time studying international relations or politics (ie enough time to see how things really work, and not just the way the government tells the newspapers tell us) b) has a heart c) has a brain

Ummmm, yep, yep, yep. Ok, that would be me.

Do you accept Paypal?

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Originally posted by quidgydog Go to the US - Land of the Free, Home of the Brave, Lucky Country, all that bullshit - Money upfront each year or no study folks. And not a pissy $5000 a year that you have here, we are talking tens of thousands of dollars. So yes, affordable education IS a privilege extended to Australians.

since when was the US an example of anything Australians would want to be? let alone an example of a fair and just socially responsible democracy. seriously, we're talking about a society that melts down into full on civil war as soon as a couple levees break.

if you want affordable education (and the resultant prosperity, social cohesiveness, etc that it brings) just look at any developed nation *other* than the US, and you'll see how far behind australia is.

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Originally posted by quidgydog (except the bullshit Union/Facilities/Activities Fees)

Nyquist are you even eligible to vote in Australia? You must be a proud australian with the canadian flag.



Having travelled and lived overseas before, lets not kid ourselves, australians are way ahead of any other nation when it comes to living standards.

PKC since you are such a massive do gooder. Go sponsor one of these illegals let them live in your house, and you subsidise them... I dont think you would, would you. What difference is it when the government does the same thing. Id rather my tax go towards people that need it, the elderly, the sick etc.

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Originally posted by Trance Nutter it is, its called HECS. it means you don't have to pay for your tertiary education until you earn a certain amount of money after you graduate. Therefore it IS available to everyone. Can I make that any simpler? People just don't want to have to pay at all, which is ridiculous.

There's not really a problem with HECS... it is our secondary school system that is flawed. Half the population is surrounded by a well off, well educated family that can afford/are willing to sacrifice to send their children to decent schools where the entire culture drives even semi-willing participants forward, whilst the rest of the population are caught up in a system where no one gives a shit. Who takes up the most places at Melbourne/Monash?? Which degrees still get the most credibility within businesses?

Equal education for all SHOULD be a right, and the government should take all means to ensure a well educated society.

It is a FUCKING JOKE that private schools receive any subsidies whatsoever from government.

Suppose Canberra wouldn't want a well educated society though, because then there would be less people to take advantage of...

[QUOTE]mate, if there weren't banks we couldnt buy houses, if there wasnt insurance companies we couldnt recover from a major loss, if there weren't oil companies we would have no transport and every thing we do/use in our everyday lives would be affected.

Fact is, whilst we all like to cry "woe is me" these companies make all our of lives ALOT easier, as i said if they didnt generate a profit they wouldnt exist and we would have none of the very basic examples above.

I am a major capitalist, you should have the opportunity to achieve whatever you like as long as you do it ethically; but i also believe when you are in a good position you should be more obliged to be more charitable.[QUOTE]

we will sit down one day and share our different viewpoints on this topic because it would be fair to say that we have completely different opinions.

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Originally posted by Paulie Nyquist are you even eligible to vote in Australia? You must be a proud australian with the canadian flag. Having travelled and lived overseas before, lets not kid ourselves, australians are way ahead of any other nation when it comes to living standards. PKC since you are such a massive do gooder. Go sponsor one of these illegals let them live in your house, and you subsidise them... I dont think you would, would you. What difference is it when the government does the same thing. Id rather my tax go towards people that need it, the elderly, the sick etc.

Personal attacks are so much easier than having to do any actual research into the facts.

University Education may be affordable for most people under the current system, but as soon as Dr Nelson gets his way and the new higher education legislation gets passed, we're fucked.

Australian Universities will become more and more like the US

you'd think Australia would learn from the mess that is the USA, but no... might as well call this place mini-USA or something.

of course private schools should get 0 funding. and those schools that do fundraising of their own with the hardwork of the parents, they should get no funding at all. anyone who gets a tutor - kick them out of school
Private school pupils get a lot less funding than public students, it is rather childish to suggest that simply because people can add their own money on top to get a better education they should have 0 government input.
Does social security work this way? Get even $1 paid work and lose all benfits? it scales down as you earn morem and private schools get less funding per student than private.
The only debate should be on what figures are applied to that scaling

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Originally posted by quidgydog It is a privilege, and you should be DAMN thankful for what you get.

I'm not quite sure where you were planning on going with this. Could you tell me, at the most fundamental level, what you believe the role of the government to be? Is it, as I would contend, to protect the interests of its citizens? Could you then tell me how, exactly, the funding of education isn't central to this role? Can you think of a better long-term, economic investment that a government could make than an investment in education? Could you tell me - even coming from the position of an right-leaning, economic-rationalist - how overseeing an educational system in which public schools are underfunded and where students are discouraged from undertaking higher-education because of the costs involved, could possibly be in the best long-term interests of this nation?

The trouble is that you seem to be viewing education as a commodity that only certain individuals can benefit from, rather than as a central economic pillar that the entire nation can benefit from. If you don't believe that the government has a responsibility to provide its citizens with a quality educational system, just ask yourself where this country would be in 20-30 years were we to radically cut-back on educational spending today? Then you can ask yourself if, by doing this, the government could really be said to be fulfilling its central responsibility to the society over which it governs?

finally renegade has spoken!

renegade for minister of education.

/close thread.

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Originally posted by Renegade

I think he meant its a privelege that Australia has got the system it does, cos it could be a whole lot fucking worse.


RE private school funding. Every child deserves funding for education. The fact it, despite what the education unions would have you believe, the level of funding for private schools is so far below that of public schools its not funny. And then public schools also get funding for facilities etc that private schools do not.

Not every parent of a private school is a neurosurgeon. Not every parent of a private school has a car that could pay for the entire tuition fees for 13 years. My parents sacrificed to send my brother and me to a good school (and thats after him going to a public school for several years). Then they also had to take part in fundraising etc to help the school provide facilities. It is hardly the domain of the rich and wealthy.

And not every public school is a Kings, Geelong Grammar or Scotch etc, there are also all of the denominational schools, which believe me are doing it tough. These schools don't have the $10,000 a year fees. Why should they lose their funding?

It is a ridiculous notion to remove funding of private schools, because you are placing those children at a disadvantage and placing those parents at a disadvantage. This is hardly the equal society you all keep carrying on about.

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Originally posted by DIDI Personal attacks are so much easier than having to do any actual research into the facts.

Personal attack? The guy spits on the hand that feeds him... I asked PKC a fair question as well.

lol i went to a private school, we had a patch of grass which housed our long jump pit and a short run up and that was it, our basketball courts were lines painted onto ashfelt and were so bumpy u could throw the ball 5 metres in front of you and it would come back, it was a hole. Private != money bags.

Paul's right we do enjoy quite a high standard of living, and whilst some areas could be improved, like health, education its still better then alot of people have,. The easiest way to improve upon what we have now would be to raise taxes, but then you'd all complain about that too. In order for them to put money into what you want, they'd have to take money out of something else, most probably something you've had your whole life and thought nothing about but will complain like little shits when it goes away to pay for other the other stuff. You want more, give more.


I just thought id vent some small frustrations from my troubled childhood.




seriously, you kants have got issues

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Originally posted by DJ_Ballistic seriously, you kants have got issues

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Originally posted by Trance Nutter I think he meant its a privelege that Australia has got the system it does, cos it could be a whole lot fucking worse.

Of course it could be worse. Is that any reason not to try to make it better?

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Originally posted by DJ_Ballistic Paul's right we do enjoy quite a high standard of living, and whilst some areas could be improved, like health, education its still better then alot of people have,. The easiest way to improve upon what we have now would be to raise taxes, but then you'd all complain about that too.

The 2005 budget surplus was $8.9 billion. Funding on schools for this budget totalled $26 billion. We could increase funding on education by 10% and still end up with a very healthy surplus (remember, they were only anticipating a budget surplus of $6 billion initially - an extra $2.6 billion on education would still leave us with a bigger surplus than Costello had initially hoped for) without having to increase taxation or take money from other programs / portfolios.

^ftw

which no doubt takes out a small chunk of our 400 billion dollar defecit

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Originally posted by DJ_Ballistic which no doubt takes out a small chunk of our 400 billion dollar defecit

I think you're referring to Net Foreign Debt, of which I'm pretty sure the government is only responsible for a small fraction.

EDIT: 3.1% in fact.

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