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-- The tune that started the rot...
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I usually think of break beat as hip hop for robots. It all kinda has a rap like asthetic to it, but the more cerebral relaxing or trancy things which also happen to have some breakbeats in them seem to fall under a different genre. Breaks brings about images like this one:



they use the empasis on beat as the separation for their category, stuff which happens to have breakbeats, but the beats are not the main focus of the tune, goes into some other category that is largely defined by whatever is the main focus of that tune. I would say breaks are defiend by obsession with the breakbeat, but tunes which just happen to have some breaks in them dont neccesarily belong in that category.

Most genres carry this pattern, of being defined by the main emphasis of the tune, while also carrying elements that come from other genres.

But there are alot of tunes with breaks in them that breakbeat fans refuse to claim, much in the same way progressive fans refuse to claim markus shulz. A same parretn in DnB where some pieces of music cannabalize those really quick and distinct drums but for whatever reason arent typically acknowleged as being part of the genre. If you want to fit in the genre you really have to emphasize the main elements of it, or else you risk the genre refusing to claim you.

I guess in EDM though, genres seem to be defined soley by how they use drums and basses, the dominant POV seems to give those a much higher priority than anything else.

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Originally posted by SYSTEM-J Therefore what you said earlier is fucking incorrect. False. Wrong. Witness: SYSTEM-J: "[Breaks] is not defined by just having a breakbeat." Mr Mystery: "Yes it is." However, you've just said that the genre of Breaks is not defined by just having a breakbeat. It's a type of music with its own characteristics. Having a breakbeat isn't the sole qualifier. You said that the Tekara mix "isn't trance, it's breaks." Wrong. It's trance with a breakbeat. If you like, it's Breakbeat Trance, but Breaks has nothing to do with Trance. The mix is trance. That's not what we're arguing about. There is a Breaks genre, but that doesn't stop lazy tits like you abusing the term beyond all measure. It's a discussion forum you dolt. It's what you do on forums.

then discuss and please refrain from name calling and use of profanity, thank you.

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Originally posted by Wicked Neo then discuss and please refrain from name calling and use of profanity, thank you.

Sorry. I'm just getting irritated because it seems like ever since I called Rebel9 I have every grizzled TA out there accusing me of things and arguing with me without any basis.

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Originally posted by SYSTEM-J Therefore what you said earlier is fucking incorrect. False. Wrong. Witness: SYSTEM-J: "[Breaks] is not defined by just having a breakbeat." Mr Mystery: "Yes it is." However, you've just said that the genre of Breaks is not defined by just having a breakbeat. It's a type of music with its own characteristics. Having a breakbeat isn't the sole qualifier.

Well duh. Breakbeat is the most defining character. If there wasn't a breakbeat there it wouldn't be breakbeat. Simple enough for you? Or would you like to continue your nitpicking?

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You said that the Tekara mix "isn't trance, it's breaks." Wrong. It's trance with a breakbeat. If you like, it's Breakbeat Trance, but Breaks has nothing to do with Trance. The mix is trance.

To be trance it would have to have a straight beat. It does not. Therefore it is not trance. Trancey breaks yes, trance no.

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That's not what we're arguing about. There is a Breaks genre, but that doesn't stop lazy tits like you abusing the term beyond all measure.

"Everybody but me is wrong!"

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It's a discussion forum you dolt. It's what you do on forums.

It's called a discussion forum because you're supposed to discuss here. It's not called "arguing for argument's sake" forum. I guess the skill of discussion only comes with age, it's something that cannot be taught.

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Originally posted by Mr.Mystery Well duh. Breakbeat is the most defining character. If there wasn't a breakbeat there it wouldn't be breakbeat. Simple enough for you? Or would you like to continue your nitpicking?

Not all tracks with breakbeats are part of Breaks. That's simple fact. How you can even argue otherwise is beyond me. Is Orbital's Chime a Breaks track? No. Of course not. Nobody defines genres like that.

Breaks is part of the Hip-hop tree. It's built from loops and use of samples. Zombie0915 pointed this out well.

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To be trance it would have to have a straight beat. It does not. Therefore it is not trance. Trancey breaks yes, trance no.

Why must it? It has every feature of trance barring the four on the floor. It does not sound like something from the tree of Hip-hop, it sounds like trance sounds, only with a breakbeat. No genre is defined by the type of beat it uses. There may be a sub-genre called Breakbeat Trance, but all its musical influences, characteristics and trends barring the beat are taken from trance. Trance is dominant, it's part of trance.

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"Everybody but me is wrong!"

That's a clever way of saying "I have no argument here". You might even have convinced yourself that you're right. If you have nothing to say, then just give it up.

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It's called a discussion forum because you're supposed to discuss here. It's not called "arguing for argument's sake" forum. I guess the skill of discussion only comes with age, it's something that cannot be taught.

Why did you correct him initially? Why bother saying "it's breaks"? What was the point? Nothing. It was for the sake of continuing the thread. I disagreed with your post as you did with his. If I'm arguing for the sake of it, so were you.

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Originally posted by SYSTEM-J Not all tracks with breakbeats are part of Breaks. That's simple fact. How you can even argue otherwise is beyond me. Is Orbital's Chime a Breaks track? No. Of course not. Nobody defines genres like that.

What is Chime if not breakbeat?

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Breaks is part of the Hip-hop tree. It's built from loops and use of samples. Zombie0915 pointed this out well.

No, that's only one part of it. There are more than enough breakbeat tracks that use no samples at all. You're describing instrumental hip hop.

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Why must it? It has every feature of trance barring the four on the floor. It does not sound like something from the tree of Hip-hop, it sounds like trance sounds, only with a breakbeat. No genre is defined by the type of beat it uses. There may be a sub-genre called Breakbeat Trance, but all its musical influences, characteristics and trends barring the beat are taken from trance. Trance is dominant, it's part of trance.

Since when has there been trance with irregular beats or no beats at all? That's like saying melodic chillout is beatless trance. 4/4 beat is a very defining character in trance, like it or not.

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That's a clever way of saying "I have no argument here". You might even have convinced yourself that you're right. If you have nothing to say, then just give it up.

Quite funny hearing that from a guy who's had no standing arguments whatsoever and repeated the same lines over and over. The "lazy tits" just happen to be everyone but you. You're more or less alone with your argument.

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Why did you correct him initially? Why bother saying "it's breaks"? What was the point? Nothing. It was for the sake of continuing the thread. I disagreed with your post as you did with his. If I'm arguing for the sake of it, so were you.

I was correcting an error he made. That's not arguing for the sake of it. However, making ridiculous claims and failing to admit being wrong is.

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Originally posted by Mr.Mystery What is Chime if not breakbeat?

It has breakbeats, but I'd call it Melodic Techno or just Old-Skool Rave.

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No, that's only one part of it. There are more than enough breakbeat tracks that use no samples at all. You're describing instrumental hip hop.

No I'm not. Instrumental hip-hop is the likes of DJ Shadow. Not the Plump DJs and Adam Freeland.

Oh, and a sample doesn't automatically mean a sample from another record. A sample can be a sound or musical element, whether taken from somewhere else or composed. A short snatch that is repeated throughout the loop.

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Since when has there been trance with irregular beats or no beats at all? That's like saying melodic chillout is beatless trance. 4/4 beat is a very defining character in trance, like it or not.

So if a track has a 4/4 kick it is trance and if it has a break it isn't? Where does that leave all other 4/4 kickdrums genres? Trance is not defined by the type of beat. That's just the most common beat used in trance. Even since the beginning, trance has made use of irregular beat patterns. Trance with breakbeats does not lose all connections to its parent genre and go join the all-scratching, all-samples Breaks family.

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Quite funny hearing that from a guy who's had no standing arguments whatsoever and repeated the same lines over and over. The "lazy tits" just happen to be everyone but you. You're more or less alone with your argument.

That's because you haven't answered those lines. You're just making an utterly stupid claim. JakeC was the first guy to say that the mix wasn't Breaks. His post is exactly what I'm saying. Zombie0915 didn't exactly side with you. So who is on your side?

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I was correcting an error he made. That's not arguing for the sake of it. However, making ridiculous claims and failing to admit being wrong is.

You have yet to give a reason which isn't stupid why your correction is valid fact and my correction isn't. Until then, all your petty attacks at how I'm arguing or even my motive are window-dressing. You can try and pull my argument down, but unless you can answer it you're just pissing into the wind.

Apologies for the double post, but even Ishkur agrees with me on this. He has Breakbeat as its own genre tree, starting with hip-hop, and Break Trance as a sub-genre of trance. So that's own credible source on my side who isn't even in this thread.

After reading the first 3posts and not knowing what state of conversation is now,I'd say that songs like 'do you think your better off alone,by alice deejay or something started the whole trend of making crap music.
Castles in the sky did some damage too.

Now,I liked a song or two that atb made, but about the time atb made their most well known songs was aboutt he time that other crap came out which started ruining the scene and state of trance.

Edit:

You know what? Forget it. I'm tired of smashing my head against a wall.

I'm going to bed.

yikes, I was just trying to informative, to reveal my perspective on things for fun, im not trying to arm anybody for an argument. I'll have you know breaks completely dominate the EDM scene in my region, I hear this stuff every few weeks because it is the only game in my town, all DnB and Breaks, anything else is the target for worlds of hate. The Breaks fans in town refuse to claim trancy stuff like the tune in quation as part of their genre, they say that it isn't proper.

The purpose of my post was to inform, I like to think that part of the appeal of this site is seeing how things work in different parts of the world, so when I see an oppurtunity I post descriptions of how things work in my part of it, in attempt to contribute to this pool of information.

yikes, the thing I replied to changed as I was writing it, sigh.

quote:

Are you misunderstanding me on purpose? I didn't say a 4/4 automatically makes a tune trance. I said that's a highly crucial part of trance, if you haven't happened to notice. All the trance tracks use 4/4 as the basis, some older stuff has some extra beats in there with the 4/4 but nowadays those tracks are more or less nonexistent.

You said it was a defining part of the genre. Yet there have been breakbeat trance records for over a decade now. That there weren't sooner is probably due to the relatively self-contained nature of the scene. There's no law and never has been a law saying that trance must have a 4/4 kickdrum.

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Why do you keep mentioning the samples anyway? Since when have samples defined any genre? Trance samples stuff at least as much as breakbeats do, yet you seem to ignore that completely.

Loop and sample based music comes from hip-hop. It's the way they're used and affect the structure and tone of the music. It's a simple matter of listening to a trance track and then a breaks track to hear how the two use samples differently. Trance doesn't use many samples at all. It tends to use pads and layers and leads.

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Who is on my side? The rest of the people like me who have been listening to breaks for a decade (give or take). You have 2 people on your side on a trance board... that must mean you're right

In this thread, two people have agreed with me. Not to mention good old Ishkur Nobody has with you yet. And yet you're assuming that everyone else out there will agree with you.

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My correction was right, yours was wrong. What else do you need?

You're bright, aren't you?

about "silence " i have to admit i really loved this tune but to hear it too much made me hate it ....it's funny to see that tiesto when he did his tiesto in concert event played this tune again

when you really think about it, does any genre have "rules" that define it? All of these rules seem to be flexible to a certain extent. I mean, what exactly is trance? What exactly is progressive? What exactly is breakbeats?

These things change, these things are flexible, the borders between these things are fuzzy. Surely you would think that we could compensate for this flexibility by having tolerance for assertions that lie near the borders of these flexible rules, unfortunately everybody thinks these rules are written in stone and claims they are the objective truth. I think what is really happening here, is that there is a flexibility in all the definitions we use. As a result, our opinions should be equally flexible, or at least open to the possibility that a person can understand these things differently without neccesarily being wrong or dumb or a noob.

It is in some aspects a matter of opinion, I am not suggesting that we all subscribe to postmodernism and give up on all attemps of identifying standards and taking sides. Postmodern "everything is reletive" thought is equally as stupid as assuming that you are right and everybody else is wrong, the real answer is in recognizing stucture while also accepting the possiblity for those structures to be somewhat flexible. It is the "engineering approximation" applied to music, sure there are rules, but there is flexibility, there is tolerance, and things change rapidly.

Take your breakbeat discussion to the craptoilet*

I'd have to go with Children on this, it's happy poppy teeny easy weee dreamy mommy friendly - you get the point.

I always thought Tiesto's mix of Silence was crap, even when i actually liked epic trance, but never realised it had anywhere near the influence people claim it to have had. I've heard Silence played everywhere hundreds of times - THE ORIGINAL MIX (mind you, a bit better than that pointless layering of endless overblown strings by Tiesto). I only got to listen to his mix about when I registered to TA to get access to the Audiogalaxy group. And I don't remember seeing it in any compilation in the stores, unlike Rank 1 - Airwave or System F - Out Of The Blue (hey, this one is a good candidate as well).

So I don't really think it started or ended anything (altho, tracks can have much different success in different countries/geographical areas and I think that really influences our perceptions), it was just another shit over-rated track in history.












*some sort of exclusive special toilet where you cannot piss on it

Breaks exists.

J is wrong. Again.

And he has obviously never been to Orlando.

quote:

Originally posted by Ishkur Breaks exists. J is wrong. Again. And he has obviously never been to Orlando.

as much i dont always agree with you, great point.
I've lived in Orlando and breaks breaks breaks breaks...

Dj Icey is a God there...

quote:

Originally posted by Ishkur Breaks exists. J is wrong. Again. And he has obviously never been to Orlando.

Eh? I never said breaks don't exist. The closest thing I said to that was that there is no super-genre called Breaks. Your guide agrees almost entirely with me on this matter. And I've been to Orlando.

No one tune started a decline in the quality, there are many more factors than a popular tune a few years ago.

such as ?

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Originally posted by SYSTEM-J And I've been to Orlando.

You can't even afford a train ticket to London, dummy. And you don't seem to leave your computer for any longer than 5 hours.

Don't lie.

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Originally posted by JakeC Its not breaks. Its just one of the many Trance tracks that use a breakbeat in place of a four to the floor kick.

which makes it breaks, haha

my view on the whole thing is, ya it takes me a decently long time to find tracks I like, but if it's shit I just move on. If I like it then I like it, it really has never mattered to me what this forum or anyone else has thought was a "rot" track. If I could find some motivation or inspiration from the track, then I have a place for it.

I am also sure some of these "rot" tracks some of the new guys to the scene talk about where probably one of their hooks, that got them into the genre, or at least, some song with a similair sound.

If it sucks, dont classify it as trance and youre set.

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Originally posted by SYSTEM-J Exactly! Most people will look back at Silence and say "Yeah, it's still a great record", but Airwave really does inspire a lot of disgust.

glad to see that i am not alone. in fact when i listen to this track and most of the trance today, i am like->what the fuc*ing shit is this? i mean its like taking a glass of plain water and serving it to some1 else and saying look here is your tasty strawberry milkshake that you always wanted, with a foolish idiotic grin on the face.

quote:

Originally posted by Psychotron If it sucks, dont classify it as trance and youre set.

Heh. That's the same attitude that has two guys debating over semantics in this very thread.



Oh, and J' & Mystery are both wrong (or both right?). There are plenty of trance tracks that use breakbeats but aren't a part of the breaks family. L.S.G. - Get Out & Eat Static - Xenomorph are two examples right off the top of my head, plus what of all the trance tracks that have breakbeats in them in addition to four-to-the-floor (like Netherworld)? However, there are enough varieties of breakbeat music styles that have spawned from the original B-Boy movement to warrent its own major family independant from the other ones.



(PS: my vote goes to Airwave )

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