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- Canada - Toronto & Southern Ont.
-- Miller wants to tear down Gardiner
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Originally posted by Orko What the hell does insurance have to do with it? Those are rates set by private firms, due to actual statistics they have collected. As for all the out of towner's. They are driving into Toronto to generate economic growth for companies, which turn around and pay taxes. They also come in, shop, and keep local businesses going. The average person working downtown pays a lot for that privilege to the local economy, it is not just about taxes. Parking, food, entertainment, that shit adds up. Sure the city has to pay for maintenance for the highway, but the amount of money generated by those people using the highway, far out weighs its cost. That is the whole point of city infrastructure. Loose money on one part, to gain on another part. Start taxing that infrastructure, and people will find alternatives like relocating to the burbs, and the city will loose even more money.

Far outweighs the cost? I guess then you can explain to me why the city has a deficit?

I'm not disputing that out-of-towners generate money. I'm saying that the amount of money that is generated is not enough. In other words, while you claim that the city is better off, it is in fact the opposite (or the city wouldn't be in the hole...)

Yes so the city of Toronto is completely undetached from the rest of the galaxy. It gets not a single penny from the different levels of govt.

Let's talk about your TTC, it's subsidized 25% by the federal and provincial govt in 2006 (look at their 2006 annual report).

Why don't YOU pay for the real price of using mass transit? TTC would need to hike by 33% its revenue to compensate those subsidies. (I'm not advocating removing those subsidies, i'm using this just as an example)

You seem to brush off the fact that congestion is part of living in a city, there's not a single city on earth the size of Toronto (or Montreal, or Vancouver) that has no congestion problems at rush hour, no matter how effecient the transit system is. Look at Paris, it has an amazing transit system, light years ahead of what we have here, subway stations at every 500m and yet congestion is a nightmare. Tokyo is no different, congestion is part of cities, get used to it.

Downtowners may be alright with sharing a ride, spending less on gas, that's because they have no other choice. Paying for expensive housing and services downtown leaves very little for anything else (other than your expensive latt�), let alone owning a car.

My point, Toronto is part of a big conurbation and can't be detached from its surroundings. There's not a single auto manufacturer in the city center of Toronto, yet the hundred of thousands who work there, spend and invest money in banks and services headquartered in Toronto. If Toronto was its own little universe, it wouldn't have benefited from all the manufacturing base surrounding it and beyond for the last century to build itself as "downtown canada".

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Originally posted by Yohan Now I haven't lived in Toronto regularly for 7 yrs, but exactly what improvements TTC made? Specially for people who live in East Scarborough or West Etobicoke? Would you spend like 2 hrs trying to get to downtown?

I live in Western Etobicoke and it takes roughly 45-50 minutes to get to Dundas Station from my house. Hardly 2 hours...

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Originally posted by Superstring This discussion has to do with out-of-towners utilizing in-town infrastructure and not paying for it directly to the city of toronto (and no, not to the federal/provincial government, thank you very much).

Umm what about green P parking? I'm from the 'burbs and when I'm visiting friends and family in Toronto, I pay my dues with the parking.



Sorry that you're bitching about the PVT. Talk to your city counsellor about it. But don't take it out on the people who have to spend more to get to the city.

By the way, if you're one of those who want to be out in the city and want to stay out late, what kind of convenience would it be to take the transit all the way back to the suburbs. That's why we drive.

quote:

Originally posted by Superstring Far outweighs the cost? I guess then you can explain to me why the city has a deficit?

The city pays for more than just highways.

quote:

Originally posted by Superstring Far outweighs the cost? I guess then you can explain to me why the city has a deficit?

Well first of all, it is illegal for the city to run a deficit. So there goes that theory.

Secondly, the traffic problem is not responsible for the city's money problems. How about councilors who get $40k/year to spend on expenses? Or a computer contract that ended up costing $100million(link ,link)? Or, or, or...the city has massive problems controlling cost. You cannot possibly blame it all on traffic woes.

quote:

Originally posted by malek Let's talk about your TTC, it's subsidized 25% by the federal and provincial govt in 2006 (look at their 2006 annual report). Why don't YOU pay for the real price of using mass transit? TTC would need to hike by 33% its revenue to compensate those subsidies. (I'm not advocating removing those subsidies, i'm using this just as an example)

So wait wait wait. I'm actually OK with paying more for TTC. Really, I would be. Would that mean that out-of-towners would be forced to pay more for the roads?

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Originally posted by Orko Well first of all, it is illegal for the city to run a deficit. So there goes that theory. Secondly, the traffic problem is not responsible for the city's money problems. How about councilors who get $40k/year to spend on expenses? Or a computer contract that ended up costing $100million(link ,link)? Or, or, or...the city has massive problems controlling cost. You cannot possibly blame it all on traffic woes.

Hah, I'm not saying that at all. But the topic of this discussion is roads. Specifically, roads and highways through the core that are mostly used by people from outside the city.

a while ago it was the ozone layer, a few years ago it was the y2k bug, now its the car and global warming... in a few years it'll be something else, trance music?

bitching on cars is just a fad, it's really popular among pseudo-elitists and hipsters living in the center... nothing new there.

quote:

Originally posted by malek a while ago it was the ozone layer, a few years ago it was the y2k bug, now its the car and global warming... in a few years it'll be something else, trance music? bitching on cars is just a fad, it's really popular among pseudo-elitists and hipsters living in the center... nothing new there.

Good job on name-calling and scurrying away from the discussion.

I own a car as well, and I pay for it. Difference is, I realize its impact on the environment and infrastructure, and prefer to use public services whenever I can.

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Originally posted by malek bitching on cars is just a fad, it's really popular among pseudo-elitists and hipsters living in the center... nothing new there.

as opposed to the normal people who just throw their brains into autopilot and don't even bother with the world around them?

quote:

Originally posted by Superstring Good job on name-calling and scurrying away from the discussion. I own a car as well, and I pay for it. Difference is, I realize its impact on the environment and infrastructure, and prefer to use public services whenever I can.

Good for you champ, you want a medal?

LOL. Maturity at its best.

QED

quote:

Originally posted by Superstring I realize its impact on the environment and infrastructure, and prefer to use public services whenever I can.

Miller's useless. Tearing down the gardiner is short-sighted and, to be sure, retarded. I hope he gets hit by a bus before this ever happens.

quote:

Originally posted by mute79 Taxes are high because the city needs to pay to sustain a failed policy on urban planning (ie. maintain current roads and build new). It is absurd to think that you can build enough roads to have people commute from suburbs, so you need to change people's habits. I hope the trend of converting vast parking spaces to condos speeds up. MR. MILLER, TEAR DOWN THIS WALL!

the taxes on the homes downtown are more expensvie than those in the suburbs.

but i think homer simpson said it best

"public transit is for loosers"

i would rather walk than take the ttc anywhere.


and i'll keep my 4 bedroom, 4 washroom, open concept living room, dining room, and kitchen than live in a small shitty condo in the down town core.

oh and my 4 car driveway with my 2 car garage and large yard than nothing like you would do in the city when a condo costs you upwards of 200 000 to 1.5 million for a 2 bedroom.

Ignoring Mute and the other hippies...

I'd just like to state for the record that I am 100% in favour of toll roads and highways, provided that it's a closed system - meaning that the toll collections go solely toward road maintenance and expansion. If it's processed as a tax and ends up going to welfare or worse, the TTC, then that's not OK.

Of course if a road is privatized then it would be up to the owner to invest those collections however they see fit.

So for those talking about how it's not cost-efficient to maintain roads or whatever - yes, we hear you, we agree. As a driver, I am perfectly willing to help foot the bill for maintenance and construction of roads by way of tolls, if it means that the roads will be properly maintained and not torn up for months to make way for streetcars or repairs that are never finished because the workers and contractors have no accountability.

Carpooling, toll roads, redesign and reengineering, rapid transit - these are all great things. Vehicle taxes, lane restrictions, and ripping apart major infrastructure for a beautification project with the expectation that people will just take the bus or relocate - not so great.

quote:

Originally posted by DigiNut Ignoring Mute and the other hippies... I'd just like to state for the record that I am 100% in favour of toll roads and highways, provided that it's a closed system - meaning that the toll collections go solely toward road maintenance and expansion. If it's processed as a tax and ends up going to welfare or worse, the TTC, then that's not OK. Of course if a road is privatized then it would be up to the owner to invest those collections however they see fit. So for those talking about how it's not cost-efficient to maintain roads or whatever - yes, we hear you, we agree. As a driver, I am perfectly willing to help foot the bill for maintenance and construction of roads by way of tolls, if it means that the roads will be properly maintained and not torn up for months to make way for streetcars or repairs that are never finished because the workers and contractors have no accountability. Carpooling, toll roads, redesign and reengineering, rapid transit - these are all great things. Vehicle taxes, lane restrictions, and ripping apart major infrastructure for a beautification project with the expectation that people will just take the bus or relocate - not so great.

well if they have toll booths there better not be any speed limits. and no traffic.

quote:

Originally posted by dj_souvlaki well if they have toll booths there better not be any speed limits. and no traffic.

I don't see how that follows. The 407 still has speed limits. Laws are laws no matter how much you paid to be on the property.

As for traffic, there will always be some during the worst part of rush hour, but there usually isn't that much traffic on a toll road. Something about coughing up the beans seems to discourage the Sunday drivers from taking their pleasure cruises on Monday mornings.

so than there should be no toll roads. if there are toll roads than build new roads to be toll roads. not use the old ones.

the 407 was built by a private company. not by the city, they didn't use an existing road either.

they should have tolls for everytime you fart. that releases toxic emissions into the atmosphere.

quote:

Originally posted by dj_souvlaki they should have tolls for everytime you fart. that releases toxic emissions into the atmosphere.

and ensure your butt passes the emission test, because god knows there are some stinky farters with their deadly seeping gas. almost like a darth vader force choke

quote:

Originally posted by Yohan and ensure your butt passes the emission test, because god knows there are some stinky farters with their deadly seeping gas. almost like a darth vader force choke

if your on the recieving end of some of my farts i really feel sorry for you my friend. i will send flowers to your grave.

quote:

Originally posted by dj_souvlaki if your on the recieving end of some of my farts i really feel sorry for you my friend. i will send flowers to your grave.

i feel sorry for your gf more. unless she's taken to wearing a gas mask all the time

thanks for the flowers consideration though. very thoughtful of you

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