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-- DJ is NO SKILL ???
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quote:

Originally posted by breakaholic They can't without musical background and technical knowledge. Djs are often the ones who sit in the studio next to the engineer and just tell what they want. They often can't even play keyboards or know the basic notes. But gladly take the credit from others productions. You don't learn producing or develop your musical ear by mixing some tunes together. You actully need to play some real instrument for that. DJs often have good view whatkind of tracks work in the dance floor. But it doesn't make dj a musician in my eyes. Of course there are lot's of djs who also have the musical background and know their way in studio. But it doesn't make you a musician if you just play other peoples music. You need to have more than that.

some of your ideas are true. im happy to hear ur ideas.

however they can make music without any musical background. even they dont have any musical background, they still can be a producer. have you ever heard this records? ROMAN FLUGEL -GEHTS NOCH?

this song really have a creative tune, but the musical backround sucks. i have many friends of good dj. most of them learn music from listening music. he can make good trance music by using a software, (HE PROOF IT). while he doesnt play any keyboard.

by listening to music very oftenly, we learn something about music.

quote:

Originally posted by Beethoven some of your ideas are true. im happy to hear ur ideas. however they can make music without any musical background. even they dont have any musical background, they still can be a producer. have you ever heard this records? ROMAN FLUGEL -GEHTS NOCH? this song really have a creative tune, but the musical backround sucks. i have many friends of good dj. most of them learn music from listening music. he can make good trance music by using a software, (HE PROOF IT). while he doesnt play any keyboard. by listening to music very oftenly, we learn something about music.

You can make a track without musical background (if you have the technical skill), the same way you can learn to play guitar in two weeks and write your first track then. But you can't be very good at it, unless you are a musical prodigy. I don't believe you can learn to write good melodies just by listening the music? This is what djs basicly do and then mix it. Then we all should know how to write melodies, I'm sure you also have listened tons of music in your life.

I have only the musician view, 12 years of writing my own tracks. Started with keyboards & guitar, played 4-5 years (rock,pop,alternative)and then in 1999 moved to producing tracks myself. For me someone who can't play keyboard or don't know the notes is not really a very talented musician. Software makes it very easy to write tracks these days, you can simply use preset arps or sample stuff. And of course you learn the melodies in the process but it's no coinsidence that names like BT had 10 years of musical background (piano) and then started producing his own tracks. You definitely hear it on his tracks, he masters everything.

It's just very hard for me to believe that dj who is just taking his first steps in studio, could actually write a track that could be released right away.

But this is interesting debate. I'd like to hear comments from djs as well who don't have the musical background. Do you feel you that dj:ing has improved your skills in writing your own music (if you produce tracks as well) ?

fuck off troll

as to the aesthetics discussion;
1. what is art?
2. what are art's charataristics?
3. do these charataristics exhibit themselves in thing x?
3a. if so, thing x qwualifies as art in your worldview.
3b. if not, thing x idoes not qualify as art in your worldview.

yes

quote:

Originally posted by Psy-T as to the aesthetics discussion; 1. what is art? 2. what are art's charataristics? 3. do these charataristics exhibit themselves in thing x? 3a. if so, thing x qwualifies as art in your worldview. 3b. if not, thing x idoes not qualify as art in your worldview.

1. what is art?

quote:

Yes, you can argue too that the industrial design of the 70s should be considered as an art, as well as the 'ready-made' pieces like the Duchamp's toilet! But I don't like the era of our postmodern relativism, where everything is art, and everybody can be an artist. There are 2 possible explanations to understand these mutations of the artistic activity: 1/ This is the end of Art, that is to say that the modern art is only a masquerade. Art has proven its own autodestruction. 2/ The nihilism of the modern Art has reached the limits of the objective representation, ie that Art has reached its historical bound. That's exactly what Hegel said: the question is no more "What is an artwork? but rather "Why do am I an artwork?". The contemporary period sees for a bunch of decades the end of Art. It doesn't mean that there are no more artworks, but that Art has reached such a level of autoreflexion that it has became philosophically "adult". So, it is because we see something as artistic that it becomes an artwork.

As I said in the first sentences of my post, I'm opposed to this conception of art. For me, art is the last and highest level of the human intellectual process, and not everybody can access to it. An artist has a genius way to create. That's why I split musicians and artists.

2.What are art's charataristics?
Consequently, a work can be considered as an artwork thanks to the affective value of the artistic creative process. The nihilism of modern art tends to give any artifacts the status of an artwork, but in my conception, that's only the message that the artist has inserted in his artwork that make an artifact an artwork. For instance, when you look at 5 same monochrome bleu, only the affective message that Yves Klein (the original painter) would like to show involves that the picture is an artwork.

3. This fundamental characteristic is in consequence not obvious, easy to see, or even to understand!
3.a. Composition 9 of Vassily Kandinsky can express art in my view:

3.b. The fountain of Marcel Duchamp is the opposite:

Lots of DJ's play musical instruments, just being able to play doesn't make you a good producer of music either. In fact, tons of musicians can't even weitr good songs.

quote:

Originally posted by breakaholic But this is interesting debate. I'd like to hear comments from djs as well who don't have the musical background. Do you feel you that dj:ing has improved your skills in writing your own music (if you produce tracks as well) ?

of course. recently i went to a DJ school and they said so. by listening music oftenly, you can know more about music. it help peoples to improve the skill in writing music. especially to the people who really OBSERVE the music well rather than enjoying too much.

I can believe that djs are less blind for their productions. That they have higher standard for the music. Usually when someone does his first track, he's the only one who thinks it's good. Others say it's absolutely shit. Djs probably will pick it up and pursue for a better result, they don't settle with bad.

But when talking about melodic writing. I have a dj friend, who I taught the basics of producing. He has been dj for over about 10 years and haven't really played any instruments before on his life. I didn't really make a difference on his ability to write melodies to someone who don't have the dj background. His first tracks were not very strong melodically. He could write the tracks right away, knew the arrangements, how to work the breakdowns etc. But the melodic part was lacking. Now he's been doing music for 2 years and I can easily tell that his skills to write melodies have been increased a lot. So I think you can't write strong melodies if you don't have the musical background and lot's of experience writing the melodic "symmetries".

Ability to write music is very individual. Someone has the talent in their genes, other have to work their ass off to get the results.
Everyone can probably learn to write music but nothing great usually comes without a hard work.

quote:

Originally posted by paulandrews It doesn�t matter if you consider yourself as an artist or not, your way of thinking won�t deny the existence of art.

ok, but just because you don't know excactly where to draw the line doesn't mean you shouldn't draw it.

To me art is very much about creativity in what you do. You cold call a carpenter an artist...but what's the point, he's just doing things by the book, that's been done many times before. Same as i think the majority of dj's / producers do, they make sounds that many has been making before them. It's just to copy and then change it a little bit. Offcourse not all producer use others way of thinking when they make tunes, but i think the majority do.

quote:

Originally posted by Soeder ok, but just because you don't know excactly where to draw the line doesn't mean you shouldn't draw it.

Yes, you should draw it for yourself, it�s individual.

quote:

To me art is very much about creativity in what you do. You cold call a carpenter an artist...but what's the point, he's just doing things by the book, that's been done many times before. Same as i think the majority of dj's / producers do, they make sounds that many has been making before them. It's just to copy and then change it a little bit. Offcourse not all producer use others way of thinking when they make tunes, but i think the majority do.

So the djs/producers are not artists because they�re like carpenters? They are obviously not the same - djs and producers have to be creative to do their job, carpenters can�t be. They are completely opposite. I don�t get how a work of a dj/producer could not be creative.

So, this has been an interesting thread I must say, and something I wrestle with in my own mind all the time actually, but to the point, I myself am a musician. I play a variety of musical instruments in college, various groups and bands, as well as two orchestras- viola, percussion (ie. marimba, snare, drumset etc.) bass, guitar, piano...and a few others here and there.

Now I've also been a DJ for 2+ years now, and have had a few residencies under my belt as well as spun at some of the biggest events my sad sad little town has had to offer. The reason I state this is so my position might seem to have some credibility, but damnit what I'm getting at is it is indeed an excellent question- Is a DJ a musician???

My answer? A DJ is as much of a musician as he makes himself. Like ANY instrument, you can play it, but not everyone plays an instrument MUSICALLY. Contrary to belief of some, I think that harmonic mixing ESPECIALLY in EDM is a MUST with no exceptions. In order to understand the transition and make it in the most musical way possible, things like phrasing (32, 64 etc) keys and harmonics, all are absolute necessities to seperate oneself from being an ass eating pizza and smoking while jumping up and down in their underwear to 'The Other Side' in their bedroom, and making music really happen and come alive.

DJ'ing is also unique because a musical side of it comes from actually something not typically found in other intsruments, and thats when performing, reading a crowd and directing the music in a sense towards a goal or peak or whatever the desired direction is.

Point in case is that DJ'ing is as musical as you make it, fortunetly for those that take it seriously, the majority of DJ's and even some professionals DONT take it in that mindset, and hence forth will be easily blown away by some of the very musical DJ's on this very forum like Stu Cox and Paullino and Nem. NOT ONE DJ in my area cares to take the time to consider keys or anything in their work, and everytime I step up to mix, they scratch their heads wondering why their 'Dancin' accapella in F# minor sounds like ass over something in Ab minor...of course they dont even know that much, but thats the point. Not to mention the fact if ANY of us plan to produce melodic music of any kind...it is a need to know in order to make something musical. While music can in fact be dissonant, bad music is bad music and a lack of knowledge typically lead to ass productions.

Take a listen http://www.myspace.com/doublepenetrationgr

That is one of the biggest DJ's in my area who runs the ONLY dance music radio in all of western Michigan....now maybe some of you think its great...however any musical aspect of the track has been slaughtered by a mere lack of knowledge and I think it really shows. Whats amazing is that someone like this can have such a position and such power over those in the area who really take the extra steps to really start making music

I in fact pity those who do not take their craft seriously and expect such epic things to come of their career when they have'nt put in the simple work to truly understand it.

Sorry for the ass of a long post

Wow man, you were on the money with that post. Nice one.

I just became dumb by reading this thread.

If it took you 10 years to master the piano, then you are really retarded. Real talent can do it in 3.

Anyone can do anything they put their mind and energy towards.

If Beethoven were alive today, he'd be writing trance.

quote:

Originally posted by Whirloop Beethoven really made research on the subject i see!

i research a lot.

quote:

Originally posted by paulandrews Yes, you should draw it for yourself, it�s individual. So the djs/producers are not artists because they�re like carpenters? They are obviously not the same - djs and producers have to be creative to do their job, carpenters can�t be. They are completely opposite. I don�t get how a work of a dj/producer could not be creative.

Perhaps your right, but if you don't mind i still have to dissagree
My point anyway is that art is about the see and do what others don't. They try to create something different, beeing creative. My view of art might be different than the definition, but i think it's not defineable
I see a big lack of creativity in trance production

quote:

Originally posted by DJ Shibby If Beethoven were alive today, he'd be writing trance.

Fuck off. I can't stand any more of that ridiculously pretentious "trance is classical" shite. No wonder trance is a joke these days.

quote:

Originally posted by Soeder Perhaps your right, but if you don't mind i still have to dissagree My point anyway is that art is about the see and do what others don't. They try to create something different, beeing creative. My view of art might be different than the definition, but i think it's not defineable I see a big lack of creativity in trance production

Art should be like that. Ideally yes. Although this does not say anything about the very definition of art; take remixes for example: every remix should have elements of the original, hence the amount of creativity needs to drop. After all, it�s still a piece of art.

I just think you want to say something else. I agree with you on the current 'state of trance'.

quote:

Originally posted by DJ Shibby If Beethoven were alive today, he'd be writing trance.

If Beethoven were alive today, he'd be writing decent music.
People like him wouldnt even look at trance

quote:

Originally posted by sleepydragon If Beethoven were alive today, he'd be writing decent music. People like him wouldnt even look at trance

+1

I really can't stand that "omfg trance = classical", it's like some ppl need to justifiy why they listen to trance with other reasons than the obvious that it's good music and that they like it, to feel better about themselves maybe, i don't know. Trance is nowhere near the complexity of classical compositions. How many trance producers can write music for and direct an orchestra?

quote:

Originally posted by paulandrews I just think you want to say something else. I agree with you on the current 'state of trance'.

i might yes, but i think i'll leave it with this. If i didn't make my point yet i don't think i ever will.

If beethoven were alive he'd be a plumber





well its just as likely as him being anything else.

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