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No, thats what Americans are being trained to think everytime their lord and master bothers to speak to them on the television by repeating the words- "middle east, terror and war" over and over.

quote:

Originally posted by Chechnyanplutonium Answer me this then - in this case, has the justice been served for the girl and her family? Has Israeli military publicly apologized for their mistake? Have they compensated the Palestinian family?

Answer me this then - in this case, has the justice been served for the IDF soldiers and their families? Has the Palestinian government publicly revealed their forensic findings? Have they compensated the IDF soldiers for libel?

For all you know, Hamas killed that girl with a rock to promote their cause. You have no evidence to suggest otherwise. All you do is speculate upon one sided news stories.

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Originally posted by Chechnyanplutonium Israelis will not even issue a public apology for that innocent girl. They would rather blame the radicals for her death - i.e. it was because they pissed Israelis off and they came to her home and the girl jumped right in front of the gun. Ooops.

Source?

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Originally posted by Dopey Source?

Haha, are you for real? Its an embarassment to you for asking that question. If Israeli military had in fact paid for the damages and publicly apologized for the raid, it will be in the news. Israel has yet to apologize for their campaign in Lebanon, for example. You want me to source that? You are an idiot. Along with Firestarter. Its pointless arguing you and your supporters because you guys have absolutely no morals, no feelings for the civilians. I know Firestarter, for example, is OK with the hundreds of thousands of Iraqi civilians that have died as a result of an illegal war.

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Originally posted by Magnetonium Haha, are you for real? Its an embarassment to you for asking that question. If Israeli military had in fact paid for the damages and publicly apologized for the raid, it will be in the news. Israel has yet to apologize for their campaign in Lebanon, for example. You want me to source that? You are an idiot. Along with Firestarter. Its pointless arguing you and your supporters because you guys have absolutely no morals, no feelings for the civilians. I know Firestarter, for example, is OK with the hundreds of thousands of Iraqi civilians that have died as a result of an illegal war.

the point is, you have no proof

when I see forensic evidence linking that girl's death with an IDF gun, I will believe that it happened that way, until then, it is all speculation, no matter how "informed" you feel you are on the issue

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Originally posted by Fir3start3r This was all brought up without needing to bring it up at all. The subject is the little girl, not the war. The war is the excuse to bring something else up entirely which has been brought up a million times over already. This whole thing is just gauche.

The war is still GOING
And about the killed girl is a small view of whole war
when we say arabic terrorists there's also
a racism dicriminative teaching to young israelians aganist the arabic roots

quote:

Originally posted by Magnetonium Firestarter, for example, is OK with the hundreds of thousands of Iraqi civilians that have died as a result of an illegal war.

well thats because according to his fucked up logic this is all ok and normal in the road to democracy,because after 500 years this could all workout.

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Originally posted by shaolin_Z Maybe it's too much for a simple-minded and irrational person to comprehent, but "the little girl's" murder is part of a much bigger picture and if it weren't for that situation, she wouldn't be dead in the first place. So your argument is rather absurd and actually contraticts itself all over. It's a diservice to her, past, and future victims' memory to stay silent about Israeli agression and state sanctioned terrorism, essentially burying it and making it nothing more than another statstic recorded is some document that will most likely never see day light. But I guess it's more convenient for some people to disingenously support an irrational and selfcontradictory position. Hmmm... who can I think of who uses a similar tactic to try and shut people up, oh that right, war hawks and agressors. Nice ad hominem attempt, but unfortunately, I can see through it; I'm not that naive or stupid. It's rather pathetic of you guys to continue with your defamation campaign like this. [EDIT2] But thanks for clarifying your position. EDIT=Formatting.

Not really, a 10 year old girl died due to the situation in the territories. The Israelis may have killed her accidentally or the Palestinians may have killed her accidentally. Its a sad death, but no more so then anyone who dies on the roads. Those deaths could have been prevented too, if people were more aware and careful in how they drive.


Afterall since your position is this girl's death is a travesty that should be placed at blame for Israel and their years of occupation, then you should similarly label this a travesty at the hands of Palestinian years of occupying themselves:

quote:

Palestinian violence kills 12 year old boy and dozens more By the A.P. ... Late Saturday night, a 12-year-old boy was killed and two people were wounded in the northern Gaza Strip during a shootout between Hamas and Fatah gunmen, witnesses and hospital officials said. One of the Hamas men was killed in the gunbattle, hospital officials said. http://web.israelinsider.com/Articl...urity/10481.htm

Should we not similarly be outraged at Palestinian politicians and the half century they have murdered, killed, and improvised their own people for their own silly selfish political objectives and absurd personal glorification?

Afterall, I am sure you are so alarmed at this 12 year old boy's death and the ridiculous circumstances of Palestinian society that have allowed this to happen that you were just about to open a thread dedicated to this matter....

ya, right.

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Originally posted by Dopey the point is, you have no proof when I see forensic evidence linking that girl's death with an IDF gun, I will believe that it happened that way, until then, it is all speculation, no matter how "informed" you feel you are on the issue

Haha, you picked the wrong guy and the wrong time for an argument.

No proof??? There's plenty of proof. One basic reasoning is that even on Western media you dont hear Israeli public apology for killing innocent civilians in raids, bombings, rather calling them "regretful" or "accidental". Since you really insist on being so innocent, you pissed me off and I decided to give you a lesson in manners.

Alright f-ckface, you want to play hardball, here we go. You have to learn sometime that you need to shut the hell up first before making wild claims about something you have no idea about. I spit on people like you who blindly BELIEVE THAT innocent Palestinian civilians who die or get injured at the hands of Israeli military most times receive proper apology, compensation, health care to recover, and equal treatment - OR ANY OF IT for that matter. Now, read and learn, butthead, and next time keep your mouth shut if you're still a human being with feelings:

According to the Office Of the United Nations High Commissioner For Human Rights, website: http://www.ohchr.org/ (below text taken from Pages 141-144 of the UN document http://www.ohchr.org/english/bodies...7-PartIII-3.pdf)


"In light of the layers of legal regimes, constitutionally discriminatory State-party institutions, and military occupation, the aggrieved individual Palestinian is not likely to seek remedy from Israeli military courts in the OPTS, but more like to appeal to one or morenongovernmental organizations operating in the OPT, including those providing legal defence services. In East Jerusalem and the Golan Heights, while indigenous residents have access to the Israeli civil courts, they are mostly inefficient in responding to the needs of indigenous residents due to the discrimination based on nationality analyzed by this report. Thus, even when access to the civil legal system is possible effective remedy and protection are rarely made available.

Handling Of Complaints

Israel forms the only de facto sovereign authority in OPT Areas B and C and, as such, is ultimately responsible for maintaining law and order in the region. Meanwhile, it has the duty of ensuring the equal treatment of all persons within the OPT. With respect to settler violence, the IOF often either actively promotes or overlooks offences against Palestinians. In many cases, the restriction onthe movement of Palestinians and the imposition of curfews have offered greater opportunity for settlers to attack Palestinians in their homes and attack their property.

Israel�s obligation to provide an effective remedy is enshrined in several international human rights treaties that it has ratified, including Article 6 of ICERD. However, in 2002, the Knesset amended the Civil Wrongs (Liability of State) Law (1952) poses obstacles to Palestinians claiming remedy for wrongful acts by the State or its agents. The Law defines the situations in which the State party can be immune from responsibility for damages, such as for the death or injury of a person as a consequence of his military service or for damages arising from �war time actions.� The purpose of the Law was to limit severely the OPT Palestinians� ability to sue the State for damages sustained at the hands of its agents since September 2000. It expanded the definition of �war

time action� to include �any action of combating terror, hostile actions, or insurrection.� The 2002 amendment also limited to 60 days after the incident for filing a notice of intent to present a claim, and then a two-year period for filing an actual claim. A July 2005 amendment further limited the filing time to 30 days and retroactively enabled the courts to dismiss standing cases. The Lawalso prohibits a national of an �enemy state,� a member of a �terrorist� organization or a person injured in a �conflict zone� from seeking compensation in an Israeli court for harm inflicted by the State party�s agents. The new amendment grants the Minister of Interior the privileges of a six-month period to determine whether aclaim corresponds with a �conflict zone,� thereby eliminating the claim, and to disqualify witnesses and plaintiffs by identifying themas �wanted� or blacklisted persons.

Implementing Human Rights

With its refusal to apply, monitor or report upon performance of thehuman rights treaties in the areas under its military occupation, the State party has testified before other treaty bodies, rather, that such matters reside in the domain of humanitarian law. Both the judicialand administrative systems fail to effectively apply the legal standards that the State purports in its report to have upheld. A key concern is the lack of monitoring systems and complaint procedures to ensure the just applications of laws and court rulings [see Part III: Article 2 and 3.]

The State party�s institutions to facilitate human rights implementation do not function in the West Bank and Gaza Strip,except in the service of Israel citizens and �Jewish nationals.�

The State�s poor record of investigation and prosecution of unlawful killings and injuries of Palestinians in OPT demonstrates a pattern of discrimination. Between 29 September 2000 and end November 2004, Israeli security forces killed more than 1,600 Palestinian civilians not involved in hostilities, including at least 500 children, seriously injured thousands more. The State party had criminally investigated only 74 such cases of alleged unlawful use of lethal force. This represents less than 5% of the civilian Palestinian deaths in nearly four years of the Intifada."


---------------------
There are no f-cking forensics or CSI agents roaming around Israel to satisfy your hunger for a nice episode for a TV programme on the crimes of Israeli troops. In fact, these Palestinians often DONT HAVE ENOUGH MONEY FOR PROPER BURIAL, and you're talking about a proper forensics report. WHO THE F--K IS GOING TO PAY FOR THAT REPORT? YOU? I dont think so. Idiot.

Also,

How can any decent person argue that Jews - 50 years after the fact - deserve compensation for property lost to the Nazi government but Palestinian refugees, numbering at 700 000 at the time of forced removal, whose property was taken by the Israel government have no right to compensation??????? HUH???

All you ignorant assholes that dont have any feelings for the thousands of civilians (anywhere in the world, especially in Palestinian lands as in this topic) who live in poverty, who have been oppressed and murdered by occupational forces, who survive barely enough on the funds of United Nations, Red Cross and silimar organizations. Those who dont agree with any of the above points stated, you are a pathetic excuse for a human being. Period. That concludes my 2-hour research on this post.

Also, Did You Know?

In 1996/1997, Israel passed a law forbidding compensation to the Palestinian civilian victims of the 1987-1993 Intefadah:


http://72.14.205.104/search?q=cache...ca&ct=clnk&cd=8

http://www.jewwatch.com/jew-atrocities-intifada.html

quote:

Originally posted by Chechnyaplutonium There are no f-cking forensics or CSI agents roaming around

thanks for conceding the argument

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Originally posted by Dopey thanks for conceding the argument

They dont do forensic analysis on dead civilian Palestinians. Why? Because Israeli military kills so many of them, they gave up long time ago. Just because one person wants one, thats not how things are done. You're just ignorant.

IDF have killed more than just civilians. The producer for the "Death In Gaza" documentary was shot and killed by Israeli troops when he was in Gaza doing his documentary, witnessed on camera and onlookers.

OH, WAIT!!!! CRAP!!! THEY DIDNT DO FORENSIC REPORT CSI STYLE ON HIM!!! SO THERE IS NO PROOF ISRAELIS KILLED HIM. Dam!!!

Yet again I prove you are a big jerk, ignorant selfish one. Care to continue?

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Originally posted by Magnetonium They dont do forensic analysis on dead civilian Palestinians. Why? Because Israeli military kills so many of them, they gave up long time ago. Just because one person wants one, thats not how things are done. You're just ignorant. IDF have killed more than just civilians. The producer for the "Death In Gaza" documentary was shot and killed by Israeli troops when he was in Gaza doing his documentary, witnessed on camera and onlookers. OH, WAIT!!!! CRAP!!! THEY DIDNT DO FORENSIC REPORT CSI STYLE ON HIM!!! SO THERE IS NO PROOF ISRAELIS KILLED HIM. Dam!!!

so you have video of this girl getting shot then?

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Originally posted by Dopey so you have video of this girl getting shot then?

Unfortunately, cameras are not pointing in the direction of every Palestinian civilian. Quite frankly, so many journalists have died in Middle East, some at the hands of Israeli troops, you have a higher chance of winning a lottery than videotaping in action Israeli troops gunning down innocent civilians. Give me 5 million cameras and 100 million dollars and I'll be able to get you a video next time!

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Originally posted by Magnetonium Unfortunately, cameras are not pointing in the direction of every Palestinian civilian. Quite frankly, so many journalists have died in Middle East, some at the hands of Israeli troops, you have a higher chance of winning a lottery than videotaping in action Israeli troops gunning down innocent civilians. Give me 5 million cameras and 100 million dollars and I'll be able to get you a video next time!

there's no way you will ever prove that girl died at the hands of IDF, get over it

I'm not saying she did or didn't, I never have, there's just no proof

get over it

Additionally, getting extra cameras to videotape Israeli troops shooting and hitting civilians are not going to stop their occupational tactics. They've been caught killing innocent civilians before, again, and videotaping it is not going to make it stop. The only thing it will achieve is waste money that could actually be used to build homes or to protect these civilians, going around with a videocamera its not going to prevent the death. How good is the camera at saving civilian's life when its videotaping the moment the bullet going through his head?

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Originally posted by Dopey there's no way you will ever prove that girl died at the hands of IDF, get over it I'm not saying she did or didn't, I never have, there's just no proof get over it

Aaaa ... you are implying that Israelis who were raiding the area werent the ones who shot and killed the girl?

Sigh. Forget it. You are hopeless. I have lost all respect for you now.

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Originally posted by Lilith I'll attack it when you start becoming succinct and a lot less long winded.

Well it's a little difficult to make/address all the relevant points for an argument if I place a word limit on myself, especially on a subject like this.

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Originally posted by Lilith The PLO was started on the simple basis of taking back Palestine by any means necessary, the Zionists where there for much the same reasons.

Ok. So that kind of implies...

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Originally posted by Lilith Zionists are ultra-nationalist jewish settlers. Theyre jews, not christians, muslims or buddists, just jews. I'm not completely ignoring the post, I do find it appalling that youre using this as a political example and nothing more. Hit the sympathy note and then dive on in with some good old fashioned hating. Its ugly, inhumane and I've already said all I was going to say on the matter and for now, my opinion of using children to political ends is about as gross as it comes.

Well, I think I already said everything I had to say about that, so there's no point in reiterating when it's obvious we disagree there.

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Originally posted by Lilith I read it, I didnt like what you did so I disagreed with the post.

What I did? Ummm... ok. I wasn't exactly the author of those books the quotes are from.

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Originally posted by Lilith Both these sides have been capable of some awful civilian attrocities, crimes of hatred and very little compassion for who the kill or gets in the way. Given half a chance they'll quite happily kill their own on occassion to get what they want, theyre both extremely savage.

I think we're both aware of how horrible the consequences of violence on eigther side are.

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Originally posted by Lilith No, just a very recently revised opinion of what you really think of me after a few temper outbursts.

I'm guessing that a reference to last week. Obviously I regret that it happened at all, but there's alot that's been happening and cumilating over the last few months (and years actually) that lead to my rather frail temperament recently. I'm a bit of a mess lately, and that's really understating it. Some of it you're mildly familiar with already, but there's quite a bit I don't rememeber bringing any up at any point. So it's not exactly what you're thinking. Yes, unfortunately I did completely loose it which I can't really blame anyone else for except myself. and I apologized for that already. It should be (or atleast hope it's) rather obvious that much of what I said was pure nonsense reflecting my compromised state of mind at that moment as opposed to what I actually think/feel.

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Originally posted by Lilith So learn to cope with the anger and stop lowering yourself to their levels, even a shortarse like myself with a foul disposition that will thump on lefties or righties, doesnt have to step up very far to be in a small amount of moral high ground around here sometimes and thats really saying something.

Yeah, I'm not particularly proud of my lack of self control lately.

quote:

Originally posted by Lilith No but after repeatedly saying that you don't understand why all the time puts me in the position where I'm obviously intellectually, morally and socially inferior to you because I can't make myself understood. Even though I use as simple english as possible to put the point across and I'm not yet at the point where I'm going to drag out Paint and start (badly!) drawing pictures. I am very, very simple. Dont read between my lines, I'm rarely that literary or literally that clever with it.

Please don't make this personal. You know very well that I don't think any of those negative things about you that you just said.

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Originally posted by Lilith Dont start making up stuff I havent written after interpreting it incorrectly, if you dont like it, just say it rather than cut and paste a small book here in response because I dont want to read a huge cut and paste Dont PM anything to me, because I wont read it.

Ok. Well, that was kind of the whole point of that 'huge cut and paste.' Those aren't accusations or poor analysis, but words and admissions straight from the horses mouth.

quote:

Originally posted by Magnetonium The State�s poor record of investigation and prosecution of unlawful killings and injuries of Palestinians in OPT demonstrates a pattern of discrimination. Between 29 September 2000 and end November 2004, Israeli security forces killed more than 1,600 Palestinian civilians not involved in hostilities, including at least 500 children, seriously injured thousands more. The State party had criminally investigated only 74 such cases of alleged unlawful use of lethal force. This represents less than 5% of the civilian Palestinian deaths in nearly four years of the Intifada."

elements within the IDF must be saying to themselves "i like those odds!"

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Originally posted by Dopey so you have video of this girl getting shot then?

by your logic... the US hasnt targetted civilian iraqi's

its not good to kill people

quote:

Originally posted by Yoepus Not really, a 10 year old girl died due to the situation in the territories. The Israelis may have killed her accidentally or the Palestinians may have killed her accidentally. Its a sad death, but no more so then anyone who dies on the roads. Those deaths could have been prevented too, if people were more aware and careful in how they drive. Afterall since your position is this girl's death is a travesty that should be placed at blame for Israel and their years of occupation, then you should similarly label this a travesty at the hands of Palestinian years of occupying themselves: Should we not similarly be outraged at Palestinian politicians and the half century they have murdered, killed, and improvised their own people for their own silly selfish political objectives and absurd personal glorification? Afterall, I am sure you are so alarmed at this 12 year old boy's death and the ridiculous circumstances of Palestinian society that have allowed this to happen that you were just about to open a thread dedicated to this matter.... ya, right.

Well Yoepus, you make the second person that actually gets it.

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Originally posted by Fir3start3r Well Yoepus, you make the second person that actually gets it.

No. The truth is far from complicated: for decades Palestinians were brutalized, kicked out, murdered by Israelis. Some of the Palestinian victims, were very angry. Instead of sitting there, waiting for rights to be granted, for damages to be paid, apologies to be issued, they decided to fight. Some of these fighters branched off in more radical wings. Eventually they took over the idle Palestinian government because they were more effective and had more progress to show for to their own people, they placed their ideologies on their people, often using their tools of violence, to fight Israeli occupation with any means. And more damage Israelis have done, the more angry and extreme these people have become. Then suicide bombings started in the 1980s in Israel. Eventually the Arab states, who were bitterly defeated, humiliated and embarrassed by Israel and America took advantage of this rising group and started giving them help. And you know the rest ...

Conclusion: Radicals were formed BECAUSE of Israel. It was their response to fight and demand rights, freedom, equality. And the longer Israel is going to withhold their rights, the more radical these radicals will become. Therefore, Israel is to be blamed for these radicals. If there was no Israeli oppression and occupation, things would have happened differently.


But you dont see that? .... because you have already chosen sides ;-)

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Originally posted by Cyrus King by your logic... the US hasnt targetted civilian iraqi's

it's not my logic

I did not say that IDF did or did not kill the girl, all I said is that there is no proof

And I'm sure 99% of them haven't. Can you say the same thing about Hamas?

quote:

Originally posted by Fir3start3r Well Yoepus, you make the second person that actually gets it.

LOL. How predictable.

quote:

Originally posted by Magnetonium No. The truth is far from complicated: for decades Palestinians were brutalized, kicked out, murdered by Israelis. Some of the Palestinian victims, were very angry. Instead of sitting there, waiting for rights to be granted, for damages to be paid, apologies to be issued, they decided to fight. Some of these fighters branched off in more radical wings. Eventually they took over the idle Palestinian government because they were more effective and had more progress to show for to their own people, they placed their ideologies on their people, often using their tools of violence, to fight Israeli occupation with any means. And more damage Israelis have done, the more angry and extreme these people have become. Then suicide bombings started in the 1980s in Israel. Eventually the Arab states, who were bitterly defeated, humiliated and embarrassed by Israel and America took advantage of this rising group and started giving them help. And you know the rest ... Conclusion: Radicals were formed BECAUSE of Israel. It was their response to fight and demand rights, freedom, equality. And the longer Israel is going to withhold their rights, the more radical these radicals will become. Therefore, Israel is to be blamed for these radicals. If there was no Israeli oppression and occupation, things would have happened differently. But you dont see that? .... because you have already chosen sides ;-)

Glad you are so enlightened and have such an open mind that you will change your opinion now that you learn some more facts:

Palestinians have terrorized Jews since the creation of the state of Israel and before, therefore your conclusion is wrong:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fedayeen#Palestinians
http://www.eretzyisroel.org/~jkatz/plo.html
http://www.jafi.org.il/education/100/maps/fed.html

I'm glad you have not chosen sides yet and can still make up your own mnid!

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