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-- Fierce Gaza fighting sparks fears of civil war
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Originally posted by Purple OMG OMG some guy fired a missile inside ISRAEL!! No one was hurt but next time it might cause an elbow injury. They will nuke the fuck out of Lebanon. Prevention is better than cure.

uhh, in the last 6 years, 6000 missles have landed in one northern city alone.

i realize it means absolutely nothing to you because not only do you not live there but you wish that the people in that city all die, but you haven't the slightest idea what prevention or the cure is.

to you the cure is some English band with funny hair.

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Originally posted by Q5echo to you the cure is some English band with funny hair.

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Originally posted by George Smiley Well, I've seen many posts of yours recently defending the Settlers, claiming they are not in fact religious fundamentalists but just normal people going about there normal life looking for some space to live in - well if that is the case, if I moved to another country I would have to live by their laws, so I assume you have no problem forcing the Settlers to live under Palestinian law? And if they have a problem with that, then they should move back to Israel/America no? The thing is, I get the impression you have some kind of personal attachment to the Settlers. As if you agree with why they are there (and hence your silly arguments as to why they should be allowed to remain there, twisting the situation to make your arguments appeal to an unreligious, enlightened audience, whilst knowing full well they are there for fundamental religious reasons) The Settlers are the single biggest impediment to peace in Palestine. They have no right to be where they are and should leave immediately - and the IDF should remove them by force if necessary of leave them to the mercy of the Palestinians. You don't owe them shit if you don't have the same beliefs as you. They are using their power in the Knesset to maintain the status quo, which means putting your country-folk in an unnecessarily dangerous situation. They want to annex the West Bank completely and failing that, they want to annex as much as possible and your government is powerless to do anything about it due to their strength in Parliament (and probably because of strong backing from extremists in America). They play on your emotions because you are Jewish and Israeli and they somehow want you to think you have some kind of attachment to them - well you don't. You're a member of a Trance Music website! You go clubbing, you're at univeristy and have probably taken drugs, got blind drunk and slept with random girls. You are nothing like them! Just because of your religion and nationality means shit. Thats like saying everyone in the UK who was born to Muslim parents and has brown skin is an extremist like bin Laden. Well it aint true. Fuck the Settlers man! They bring no benefits to normal Israelis whatsoever. They are an evil bunch of rightwing thugs. They are detrimental to Israel's peace and security. Israel's army spends most of it's time protecting the Settlements and they have no strategic purpose any more whatsoever - they are there for one thing only - Eretz Israel - and if you do not agree with that then ffs oppose the Settlers

I don't know why you trying to lump me into some position I am not.

I don't support the religious settlers. I don't support settlers at all. But the term "settler" is very misleading.

How most people view "settler" is anyone living within the green line or within the pre-1967 armistice line. This is not to true, as I mentioned previously most are simply suburbanites. Most are secular, and most support a two state solution.

However what you see in the news is the right-wing settlers. And yes, fundamentally I believe they have as much right to be there as the Palestinians (provided the land was acquired in rightful ways) and if a two state solution would come to pass I believe they should be under Palestinian jurisdiction. Just as I believe Israeli Arabs have every right to live in Israel and them choosing to do so they are subject to Israeli jurisdiction.

The biggest obstacle to peace is the fact that the Palestinians are a big bunch of babies that hold their pride so high above their head that it blinds them to reality and compromise.

Not some settlers who will move out if the Israeli government tells them to move out (alla Gaza). And what backlash did Sharon get for that move at the time? None. Israeli populace sees settlers complete as a non-issue, and they see it that way because it is completely a non-issue.


Perhaps when the Palestinians grow up and learn to behave like adults we can get things going again. Until then, I don't see the point in wasting energy on this.

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Originally posted by Yoepus Just to point out in contrast: Israel accepts Jews from across the world for refuge anytime they feel threatened. Saving thousands from Ethopia, Iran, Iraq, and France

The goals of Israel are different from goals of the Arab states - they dont really call on all Arabs to migrate into Holy Land, do they? Why would they, there's hardly any room or peace for current populations ... Plus Israel has lots of money, backing to do it. Plus any Jews who lives in a volatile "foreign" land that no longer wants him would want to move to a promised land that Jews have wanted for nearly 2 thousand years, a Jewish state. A great honour. In no way to compare the Arab plight and Palestinian suffering. Palestinians didnt want to leave their lands. But Israel was quite happy to annex and force people out of the lands they took for their own advantage and goals. Which dont include anything good for the Palestinian people. Some sort of a Palestinian banishment from the Holy Land, a lot like the expulsion of Jews nearly 2000 years ago, eh?

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Originally posted by Magnetonium Plus Israel has lots of money, backing to do it.

the immediate Arab sphere around Israel has, easily, 10 times the capital to do it.

the point being, they don't. get it?

Israel should be destroyed but that isn't the point.

The Arabs all hate each other and left to their own devices will continue to fight each other until the end of times. They hate Israelis first then second in line are the Palestinians.

Sure you won't believe me but I think living with a student from Saudi Arabia for years and having many long talks with him about the state of things has given me a much clearer view than many of you will ever have.

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Originally posted by Zild Israel should be destroyed but that isn't the point. The Arabs all hate each other and left to their own devices will continue to fight each other until the end of times. They hate Israelis first then second in line are the Palestinians. Sure you won't believe me but I think living with a student from Saudi Arabia for years and having many long talks with him about the state of things has given me a much clearer view than many of you will ever have.

so you sat around the crib and listened to some Arab kid for a few years and now you want to commit genocide...do us all a favor, consider suicide.

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Originally posted by Q5echo so you sat around the crib and listened to some Arab kid for a few years and now you want to commit genocide...do us all a favor, consider suicide.

Don't tell him that!!

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Originally posted by Q5echo the immediate Arab sphere around Israel has, easily, 10 times the capital to do it. the point being, they don't. get it?

NNo they don't. Go live there, in Egypt, or Syria, or Lebanon and see how much capital they have for the ordinary people. Little or nothing. Palestinian refugees ... well, if there's not enough money or resources for the citizens, how much help or money you think they have for Palestinian people displaced by the Israeli occupation?

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Originally posted by Magnetonium [COLOR=FF7F50] The goals of Israel are different from goals of the Arab states - they dont really call on all Arabs to migrate into Holy Land, do they?

No they care about extending the holy land to other areas around them don't they?

But what's your point?

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Why would they, there's hardly any room or peace for current populations ... Plus Israel has lots of money, backing to do it.

Arab countries have a lot more money (think Oil, Dubai: ski slopes in the middle of the deserts, tallest buildings in the world) than Israel (and they don't have to spend their money on a military because no one is going to attack them, and if someone does, good ol USA will come in to their defense at the expense of the US taxpayer not the Arab taxpayer). They have a lot more land, water, resources. You name it.
The Arab world is about 1000x larger than Israel, and the Arab population in the area is larger several order of magnitudes larger than the entire Jewish population in the world.

Jews in all the world: about 12 million:
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org...ism/jewpop.html
Saudia Arabia alone (non-foreign population): about 22 milion:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demogr...of_Saudi_Arabia

They have the ability Magnetonium, you are barking up the wrong tree, that is not the issue. They lack the will.

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Plus any Jews who lives in a volatile "foreign" land that no longer wants him would want to move to a promised land that Jews have wanted for nearly 2 thousand years, a Jewish state. A great honour. In no way to compare the Arab plight and Palestinian suffering. Palestinians didnt want to leave their lands.

Nobody wants to leave their home. People do it when their home is not a home anymore and they want to make a better life for themselves.
The Russian jews that fled after the fall of the soviet union did not care about the promised land, or Israel at all. They moved to Israel because the could, and there lives in Russia were so horrible they would move to anywhere that opened its doors to them. Israel was by in large the only country that did this; especially for the uneducated and poor.

Arab countries could care less about their brethern, if they did, they would open there doors to them.

This does not mean they would force them to leave or even encourage them to do so, it simply means that if they needed, if they wanted, they had somewhere that had an open, welcoming door to them.

That I think, would speak volumes about Arab humanity and would help set this conflict to a quicker, realistic, and peaceful resolution.

But you disagree..

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Originally posted by Yoepus No they care about extending the holy land to other areas around them don't they? But what's your point? Arab countries have a lot more money (think Oil, Dubai: ski slopes in the middle of the deserts, tallest buildings in the world) than Israel (and they don't have to spend their money on a military because no one is going to attack them, and if someone does, good ol USA will come in to their defense at the expense of the US taxpayer not the Arab taxpayer). They have a lot more land, water, resources. You name it. The Arab world is about 1000x larger than Israel, and the Arab population in the area is larger several order of magnitudes larger than the entire Jewish population in the world. Jews in all the world: about 12 million: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org...ism/jewpop.html Saudia Arabia alone (non-foreign population): about 22 milion: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demogr...of_Saudi_Arabia They have the ability Magnetonium, you are barking up the wrong tree, that is not the issue. They lack the will. Nobody wants to leave their home. People do it when their home is not a home anymore and they want to make a better life for themselves. The Russian jews that fled after the fall of the soviet union did not care about the promised land, or Israel at all. They moved to Israel because the could, and there lives in Russia were so horrible they would move to anywhere that opened its doors to them. Israel was by in large the only country that did this; especially for the uneducated and poor. Arab countries could care less about their brethern, if they did, they would open there doors to them. This does not mean they would force them to leave or even encourage them to do so, it simply means that if they needed, if they wanted, they had somewhere that had an open, welcoming door to them. That I think, would speak volumes about Arab humanity and would help set this conflict to a quicker, realistic, and peaceful resolution. But you disagree..

LOL ... I am not talking about Saudi ARabia. The refugees are not doing that bad there. The refugee problem is in Syria, Lebanon, Egypt, Palestinian lands for that matter. Last time I checked its not Dubai-style of living there. Its not just Saudi Arabia and Dubai who dont care, but Americans/Israeli dont care either. Does that make Israel or Arab states any better? But thats not a good thing for Israel because it was Israel who created this problem, not Syria, Lebanon, Egypt so they shouldn't pay for it. Saudi Arabia actually helps with money every year to Palestinians, though not much but they jsut cant take all 2 million plus of them and make them live in the middle of a desert somewhere. US and Israel has a lot of influence and control over Saudi Arabia and Dubai, but whats that translating into Palestinian help? Why should the Arab states make Israel look good by cleaning up the Israeli mess and getting the refugees out of its face? You are quite ignorant. These people want to go home, to their rightful lands. In Saudi Arabia or Dubai Palestinians are treated with discrimation, poorly and never get equal rights. Its a fact. They dont have the same rights or benefits, just like they wouldn't in many countries. Under UN provisions and against your wishes, these refugees have a right to return to their homes. Which Israel denies, violating some of the basic human rights provisions.


Ummmm, as for the extension of the Holy Land ... well, it cant be extended any further. Arab states are just still figting over getting back the lands they think are theirs. They cant just build some site in Saudi Arabia and claim it to be holy. Thats not how it works.

The Jewish population of 12 million is much richer per capita that all Muslim lands combined. Not including the oil reserves ;-) which are occupied and/or controlled directly by their backed American leaders and corporate interests, some of which are most likely jewish ... hey, Wolfowitz is Jewish. And we all know what he orchestrated ... wink wink.

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Originally posted by Magnetonium LOL ... I am not talking about Saudi ARabia. The refugees are not doing that bad there. The refugee problem is in Syria, Lebanon, Egypt, Palestinian lands for that matter. Last time I checked its not Dubai-style of living there. Its not just Saudi Arabia and Dubai who dont care, but Americans/Israeli dont care either. Does that make Israel or Arab states any better? But thats not a good thing for Israel because it was Israel who created this problem, not Syria, Lebanon, Egypt so they shouldn't pay for it. Saudi Arabia actually helps with money every year to Palestinians, though not much but they jsut cant take all 2 million plus of them and make them live in the middle of a desert somewhere. US and Israel has a lot of influence and control over Saudi Arabia and Dubai, but whats that translating into Palestinian help? Why should the Arab states make Israel look good by cleaning up the Israeli mess and getting the refugees out of its face? You are quite ignorant. These people want to go home, to their rightful lands. In Saudi Arabia or Dubai Palestinians are treated with discrimation, poorly and never get equal rights. Its a fact. They dont have the same rights or benefits, just like they wouldn't in many countries. Under UN provisions and against your wishes, these refugees have a right to return to their homes. Which Israel denies, violating some of the basic human rights provisions. Ummmm, as for the extension of the Holy Land ... well, it cant be extended any further. Arab states are just still figting over getting back the lands they think are theirs. They cant just build some site in Saudi Arabia and claim it to be holy. Thats not how it works. The Jewish population of 12 million is much richer per capita that all Muslim lands combined. Not including the oil reserves ;-) which are occupied and/or controlled directly by their backed American leaders and corporate interests, some of which are most likely jewish ... hey, Wolfowitz is Jewish. And we all know what he orchestrated ... wink wink.

There is no point in debating with you because you can't even understand an argument. Therefore I won't.

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Originally posted by Yoepus There is no point in debating with you because you can't even understand an argument. Therefore I won't.

Let me remind you of a common sense doctrine-style of solution:

Question: Who caused the refugee problem, who forced the refugees and who is currently occupying the lands that the refugees used to live in?

Answer: Israel.

Solution: Therefore, since Israel caused it, Israel should be the one doing most of the work to fix the problem. If I take something that was yours, you're not just going to move on and ask for government assistance, are you? You'd want it back. You have a sense of pride and dignity, dont you? But I guess its because you're not Palestinian, thats why.

Egypt arranging summit in support of Abbas

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19345056/

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Originally posted by Magnetonium [COLOR=FF7F50] Let me remind you of a common sense doctrine-style of solution: Question: Who caused the refugee problem, who forced the refugees and who is currently occupying the lands that the refugees used to live in? Answer: Israel.

You might want to answer with the WHOLE story and ask yourself how the whole situation started even BEFORE this whole refugee problem even existed.

Question: What was the root cause of the current plight of the West Bank?

Answer: The Six-Day War before which the West Bank was assigned to Arab States and then Jordan before Israel captured it and then subsequently left after UN Security Council Resolution 242 was unanimously adopted.
Jordan then ceded West Bank to the PLO and well now you know where the 'doctrine-style' solution came from...

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Originally posted by Fir3start3r You might want to answer with the WHOLE story and ask yourself how the whole situation started even BEFORE this whole refugee problem even existed. Question: What was the root cause of the current plight of the West Bank? Answer: The Six-Day War before which the West Bank was assigned to Arab States and then Jordan before Israel captured it and then subsequently left after UN Security Council Resolution 242 was unanimously adopted. Jordan then ceded West Bank to the PLO and well now you know where the 'doctrine-style' solution came from...

I am talking about the Palestinian lands OUTSIDE of PLO that Israel has occupied since 1940s from which most of these Palestinian refugees are from. I am not even talking about West Bank / Gaza here, those areas are overpopulated as it is (and have plenty of refugee camps too).

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Top Official of Hamas Is Rebuffed Over Talks By IAN FISHER JERUSALEM, June 23 � A top leader of Hamas, which last week routed its rival, Fatah, from Gaza, called for talks on Saturday to re-form a power-sharing Palestinian government. But Fatah leaders, looking forward to a meeting of regional leaders on Monday that excludes Hamas, rebuffed the offer. �There will be no dialogue with Hamas,� Reuters quoted Hussein al-Sheikh, a senior Fatah official, as saying. The Egyptian president, Hosni Mubarak, who will play host to the meeting, condemned Hamas in strong terms for staging a �coup� that left it in control of Gaza and Fatah contained to the West Bank, in fighting that has effectively split Palestinians into two geographic entities. �We are following closely the fallout from the coup against Palestinian legitimacy,� Mr. Mubarak said in a statement to members of his party. �I reiterate Egypt�s support for the Palestinian National Authority, and its president, Mahmoud Abbas,� he said. The rebuff and Mr. Mubarak�s statements seemed yet more evidence of a united strategy, among Arab and Western governments, along with Israel, to alienate Hamas, the Islamic militant group that won Palestinian elections last year, and to bolster Mr. Abbas and Fatah, which is secular but also often accused of deep corruption. The call for negotiations with Fatah came from Ismail Haniya, who had been the Hamas prime minister in the government that Mr. Abbas dismissed last week after the fighting between the groups. Mr. Haniya, who has not recognized his dismissal, made the request in a telephone conversation with the president of Yemen, Ali Abdullah Saleh. �The way out of the present crisis is through inter-Palestinian dialogue without preconditions on the basis of no winner, no loser; a government of national unity,� Mr. Haniya�s office quoted him as telling Mr. Saleh. But Fatah, weakened by its defeat despite almost unanimous international backing, not only rejected the overture, but also said it will seek new elections that will exclude Hamas. Hamas officials say such elections would be illegitimate. The meeting on Monday, at Sharm el Sheik on the Red Sea in Egypt, will be attended by Mr. Mubarak, Mr. Abbas, Israel�s prime minister, Ehud Olmert, and King Abdullah of Jordan. Mr. Olmert is expected to announce concrete measures to help Mr. Abbas, including releasing at least some of the hundreds of millions of dollars in Palestinian tax revenue Israel has withheld since Hamas won the election last year. Israeli officials have said they will discuss with Mr. Mubarak cracking down on arms smuggling from Egypt into Gaza, a flow of weapons they say has helped keep Hamas powerful.

Source: New York Times

I Agree with this move. Strengthening the moderates will help in the long run to stabilize the region. This move, if followed up properly with concrete measures, could produce good results.

This whole conflict had to erupt eventually because Hamas was being blindsided and taken out of the equation, even though it won the elections and theoretically should have played a more important role in the region. Though its a shady organization with questionable support and goals, but whatever - thats not the point here. Abbas and his western-backed government should do something for Palestinian people and not be yet another Palestinian leadership who is making good living for itself, licking Israel's boots and preserving status quo. Radicals and resistance movement will soooo feast on that.

http://conflictsforum.org/2007/our-...he-middle-east/

Good summary explaining the current fighting between Hamas and Fatah

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Originally posted by George Smiley http://conflictsforum.org/2007/our-...he-middle-east/ Good summary explaining the current fighting between Hamas and Fatah

And for those of you who can't be bothered to read it, here is the same guy doing an interview on the same...

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