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-- religion is so great, doo-dah doo-dah
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Originally posted by RJT Again, believe what you want to - but at the end of the day I don't think the "scientists" and the "theists" are fundamentally all that far from one another, and think it's people who do that are the cause of the hatred and evil that arise from either.

IF you can clearly define what God is, and if there was decent evidence I might decide to believe in it. I'm not above good evidence.

Everybody seems to have their own definition or description of what or who God is. If the theists can't even agree on who or what God is, than how could you successful evaluate any sort of evidence to his or its existence? If you want pick a definition and argue it, then I will read it.

I can understand why after years of listening to rebuttals from theist, atheist get tired of the same old logical fallacies, and the theists who have no idea what a logical fallacy is.

What I don't like about religion or any of the new age junkie science is that it does not promote rational thinking. I want people to be able to have intelligent conversations that aren't immediately shut down by an irrational belief. I am grateful that there were extraordinary people that did NOT listen to what the church had to say about the universe, and instead ventured on their own journey for the truth which has lead us to an age where we can enjoy the fruits of technology.

A particle that acts like a wave, blasphemy!

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Originally posted by Beatflux What would expect when there aren't any good arguments from theists?

There are pleanty of good arguments from both sides. Normally, I'm the one on these boards making them on the theist's behalf (you can talk to pkc about this... he's pretty hard core on the athiesm front and even he sees the rationality in my arguents). The problem isn't a scarcity of good arguments, rather, it's a scarcity of good listeners.





I'm pretty proud that I've been able to just sit back and watch this one.

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Originally posted by RJT The problem is you view religion and spirituality solely in the specific, in situations you easily identify as "insane"

What kind of action/thought would you describe as insane?

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Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles That's just not true. One word: nationalism.

I agree. I don't believe for a second that it takes religion to make good people do evil things, and anyway, I don't think there are good and bad people, I think everyone has a bit of both and its just a matter of how you rationalize your actions and which way you swing. Religion just provides a convenient cover, an excuse, to do bad in the name of a supposed good, much like the "War On Terror" allows us to torture people...

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Originally posted by Spirit5 So if MOST things are created, then how can something just "poof" appear rather than have somehow being designed by something (not saying it's God, but it's got to be something out there) not just appear out of nowhere.

It's not true, as far as we can tell, that "most things" come about through creation. The vast majority of the universe that we've observed consists of hydrogen and helium bumping around with absolutely no sign of consciousness or purpose.

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Originally posted by distant What kind of action/thought would you describe as insane?

You misunderstand. I see you as writing off anyone with any theistic beliefs as insane based on a handful of high profile examples that are hardly indicative of your average person of faith.

If you've read Kierkegaard or his opinion of faith necessitating the absurd, it's fairly indicative of my feelings on the matter; I don't understand blind faith at all, it's absurd and cannot be reconciled by rationality, but, to a degree, and in some "lunatic" sense, I admire it, yet fully admit that I don't think I can ever understand why.

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Originally posted by RJT You misunderstand. I see you as writing off anyone with any theistic beliefs as insane based on a handful of high profile examples that are hardly indicative of your average person of faith. If you've read Kierkegaard or his opinion of faith necessitating the absurd, it's fairly indicative of my feelings on the matter; I don't understand blind faith at all, it's absurd and cannot be reconciled by rationality, but, to a degree, and in some "lunatic" sense, I admire it, yet fully admit that I don't think I can ever understand why.

It's also interesting to note that believing in something does not = being religious. My mom is not religious but she does believe in some type of higher power or God.

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Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles It's not true, as far as we can tell, that "most things" come about through creation. The vast majority of the universe that we've observed consists of hydrogen and helium bumping around with absolutely no sign of consciousness or purpose.

But they had to come from somewhere? They just don't "appear" out of nowhere...many things in the universe are created by processes and cause and effect...they aren't just purposeless things that don't serve any purpose. The Universe didn't just appear..."poof" it's there, and the Universe isn't just some stagnant thing, it's evolving, changing....stars are born, they die, galaxies are born, they die...things don't last "forever" and if things die, then they would have had to been "born" and birth does imply that they would have to have come from somewhere. Where? we don't know. That's what scientists are tying to find out, just as religious people are too...asking why?

Things don't need "consciousness" to have purpose or have a reason why they are there. Many elements exists in our planet that serves purposes...and we often create things by them that serve purposes..so we are CREATORS, we use what we can find to CREATE things, Intelligence often results in the greater ability to create..the more intelligent (higher brain compacity) an organism has, the more likely it is to create. Certaintly, in this vast universe..we are not the most intelligent species..that's nieve to think that because we are flawed and not as intelligent as we surmise.

guys where the fuck is this all supposed to be going?

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Originally posted by leph555 guys where the fuck is this all supposed to be going?

The same could be asked of religion

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Originally posted by leph555 guys where the fuck is this all supposed to be going?

oops wrong thread

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Originally posted by Spirit5 But they had to come from somewhere? They just don't "appear" out of nowhere...

Yes, the whole idea of science and religion both is to eventually understand where "nowhere" itself in fact comes from.

"nothing" as a concept - that's interesting to me

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Originally posted by RJT I don't understand blind faith at all, it's absurd and cannot be reconciled by rationality, but, to a degree, and in some "lunatic" sense, I admire it, yet fully admit that I don't think I can ever understand why.

We agree then. On the first part anyway, because I don't particularly admire it (other than when it results in good music).

Faith and lunacy are conceptually the same thing, though in society they're perceived as different.

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Originally posted by distant We agree then. On the first part anyway, because I don't particularly admire it (other than when it results in good music). Faith and lunacy are conceptually the same thing, though in society they're perceived as different.

"If you talk to God, you are praying; if God talks to you, you have schizophrenia." - Thomas Szasz

I AM YOUR FUCKING GOD, BITCHES!

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Originally posted by nefardec Yes, the whole idea of science and religion both is to eventually understand where "nowhere" itself in fact comes from. "nothing" as a concept - that's interesting to me

Nothing is interesting to me as well, but nothing would imply "void" which would mean no beginning, nor no end. And it's pretty well established scientifically that the Universe had a beginning...the "Big Bang" is a pretty established theory. And scientists do think that the Universe as we know it..might end in say 5 billion years.

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Originally posted by Beatflux IF you can clearly define what God is, and if there was decent evidence I might decide to believe in it. I'm not above good evidence. Everybody seems to have their own definition or description of what or who God is. If the theists can't even agree on who or what God is, than how could you successful evaluate any sort of evidence to his or its existence? If you want pick a definition and argue it, then I will read it. I can understand why after years of listening to rebuttals from theist, atheist get tired of the same old logical fallacies, and the theists who have no idea what a logical fallacy is. What I don't like about religion or any of the new age junkie science is that it does not promote rational thinking. I want people to be able to have intelligent conversations that aren't immediately shut down by an irrational belief. I am grateful that there were extraordinary people that did NOT listen to what the church had to say about the universe, and instead ventured on their own journey for the truth which has lead us to an age where we can enjoy the fruits of technology. A particle that acts like a wave, blasphemy!

See the problem is you are looking for specifics. We're not discussing specifics here. We don't need a specific example of a God, or a specific example of divine intervention. The point is that extreme atheism closes off all possibilities of any sort of higher power at all. Not Jesus, not Buddha, not Allah etc. No specifics, only the idea of a higher power. Like I said, extremist atheists are no different to religious zealots in essence.

You also seem to convey the idea that scientists and theists do not mix and that most of the discoveries in the world came about due to atheist scientists breaking away from religion. This is simply not true and you can see that many scientists are in fact religious as well. How much, it doesn't really matter but they open to the notion of a higher power.

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Originally posted by Clovis It's also interesting to note that believing in something does not = being religious. My mom is not religious but she does believe in some type of higher power or God.

Yes that's actually a very good thing to point out. It allows her to use science in the way it's meant to be used, yet remain open to anything which science cannot explain, and she doesn't just brush it away because science doesn't explain it.

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Originally posted by weymouth To me, Rich and pkcRAISTLIN are no different than those chumps that picketed that soldier's funeral with hate about how God is punishing the U.S. country for its evils.

well, you'd be wrong.

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I just don't understand why you two are so adamant about proving yourself correct over an internet forum.

don't blame us for your lack of understanding.

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This is to all the "intelligent atheists" that use the internet to argue against religion: Get a life and stop being so self-conscious about what you believe in that you have to pick fights with people and then copy/paste exerts from books/internet sites just to have some deluded image of yourself as being an intellectual.

perhaps we just enjoy talking to like (and not so like) minded individuals about world issues?

as for "copy-pasting" that's called referencing for the uninitiated. go sit in the corner and play with some coloured blocks.

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Originally posted by RJT And Rich, I'd gladly get into the "Which side has more obnoxious characters?" debate with you - because it isn't how many, but the shear fact that I find you all obnoxious, that matters.

so glad to hear you're back in this thread to remind us how much better than all of us you are. i guess that makes you the most obnoxious

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Originally posted by weymouth

in case you're wondering mate, the point of this thread has nothing to do with being right or disproving the existence of god etc. its about illustrating the differences between religious zealotry and so-called extreme atheism.

its not my fault if you, and others in this thread, cannot see the fundamental differences between the two.

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Originally posted by fayraree Obviously not comparable in terms of the extent of violence used, but your line of thinking sounds a lot like the justification that terrorists use for their actions. Passive resistence, like the poster above you, is the way to go!

i'm pretty sure that by not going door-to-door in every neighborhood asking everyone if they're found god yet, or screaming obscenities at dead soldiers' funerals, or standing on a downtown street corner holding up a sign while yelling at passerbyers through a bullhorn, or bombing health clinics after harassing rape victims... i'm being passively resistent

god you people act like having a fucking opinion on religion in a religion thread on the internet makes me a fucking zealot

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Originally posted by R!CH i'm pretty sure that by not going door-to-door in every neighborhood asking everyone if they're found god yet, or screaming obscenities at dead soldiers' funerals, or standing on a downtown street corner holding up a sign while yelling at passerbyers through a bullhorn, or bombing health clinics after harassing rape victims... i'm being passively resistent

its ridiculous isnt it? the only thing atheists do is engage in discourse in various formats. somehow we're as bad as those flying planes into buildings or dictating to a woman what she can do with her body

if we were here arguing against something like fascism would people still call us zealots i wonder? again, this special treatment peculiar to religion is just incredible.

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Originally posted by R!CH so glad to hear you're back in this thread to remind us how much better than all of us you are. i guess that makes you the most obnoxious

The only person posting in this thread I know I'm better than is you.

But that never took much to begin with, did it?

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Originally posted by R!CH then i commend the atheists who bite back...

You've got to love folks who advocate fighting idiocy with idiocy. Well in, Rich - you're an academic superstar.

lol rjt, always good for a laugh...

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Originally posted by Fledz You also seem to convey the idea that scientists and theists do not mix and that most of the discoveries in the world came about due to atheist scientists breaking away from religion. This is simply not true and you can see that many scientists are in fact religious as well. How much, it doesn't really matter but they open to the notion of a higher power.

Maybe so, but it wasn't their religion that drove them to do scientific research. Religion itself hasn't been beneficial to society in any way. You know why? Because it always devolves into silly bedtime stories. That's what it is. You act like it's some amazing, spiritual thing, without taking into account that this shit was written by nutjobs 2000 years ago.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN if we were here arguing against something like fascism would people still call us zealots i wonder? again, this special treatment peculiar to religion is just incredible.

Sums it up right there. We can't even have a proper argument without people throwing metaphysical bullshit at us, because that apparently justifies ignorance, war and oppression.

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