Originally posted by RJT
Bump because I know Jeff is reading the forums right now
Lol, I am indeed.
I am no Hillary fan, so I can understand your complaints against her. But to me things are relative, and she is a better option than some of the other candidates running. A friend of mine is a Hillary fan, and he pointed out that despite her short-comings on a few issues, she is still for wider access to quality education and higher wages for public school teachers in disadvantaged areas; wider health care coverage for average Americans; a more diplomatic foreign policy (though it can be argued not diplomatic enough); preservation of freedom of choice on moral issues (including full equality of benefits to civil unions); getting assault weapons off the streets and strengthening the background check system; fiscal responsibility and a balancing of the budget; reinforcing the Consumer Product Safety Commission (protecting consumers from businesses that put costs before safety); focus on treatment and not incarceration for first-time drug offenders; move toward more energy efficiency and conservation, and less foreign oil dependency;
Anyway, I could go on about things that I think Hillary is good on, but the fact is it is of course a personal choice. I won't vote for her in a Primary, but I don't think she warrants demonification either.
The censorship issue is one I honestly don't know much about - but I can see how a moderate Dem would probably not be a fan of GTA, so I can believe it.
As for Iraq... well she's a load better than this Administration, as well as most of the GOPers running. She hasn't apologized for her vote in 2002, but she has tacitly acknowledged it was a mistake, and I think she's going to be leaning hard on folks like Joe Biden to actually implement an Iraq policy if elected, and I don't mind that at all.
My biggest complaint about Hillary is her vote for the Lieberman-Kyl amendment on Iran. Doesn't send us to war... but was a temporary step in that direction.
So yeah, my first choice is Obama, but if Hillary is the Dem nominee, I'll support her easily over any of the likely candidates coming from the GOP, most of whom actually do scare me.
Posted by RJT on Jan-15-2008 15:19:
quote:
Originally posted by Lebezniatniko
As for Iraq... well she's a load better than this Administration, as well as most of the GOPers running.
Well now - is that really saying all that much?
All jokes aside, you make a good point, but if it came down to me being an "issue" voter (which even the thought of makes me cringe), the censorship issue is the one that sticks in my craw the most and couple that with a general unease about her and I just can't get comfortable with the idea of her as our commander in chief (though would readily admit will certainly be at least relatively better than the current administration ).
So yeah, I don't know - I could go on for a while further about why she isn't for me, but as you said, it's a personal choice and as long as someone who's making theirs is well informed about the choices they're making (regardless of the particulars) I think we're far better off.
Posted by denys envy on Jan-15-2008 15:22:
look guys. hillary is the next best thing to communism. and we can't just come out in the general public and say "hey nation, we're communist now." - they ruined that back in the '60s. so we must infiltrate the communist agenda in the disguise of a 60 yr old ex-First Lady.
Posted by Lebezniatnikov on Jan-15-2008 15:30:
quote:
Originally posted by RJT
it's a personal choice and as long as someone who's making theirs is well informed about the choices they're making (regardless of the particulars) I think we're far better off.
Could not agree more. I think not knowing enough about the candidates in 2000 was what got us into this mess. People voted for Gore because he sounded boring... and well... we're in some tough spots we weren't in before.
I'm not much of an issue voter myself once it comes to the general election. In the primaries, I give my support primarily (lol) based on foreign policy (an overall view of how the candidate sees America's role in the world) and education. Hillary is good on education, but isn't the best on foreign policy, so I initially supported Biden and am now in the Obama camp since Joe's out. But as opposed to the sabre-rattling Giuliani, equivocating Romney, loon Paul, and creationist Huckabee, I would support Hillary without question. McCain is the only GOP candidate that would give me pause, so we shall see.
Posted by Lebezniatnikov on Jan-15-2008 15:31:
quote:
Originally posted by denys envy
look guys. hillary is the next best thing to communism. and we can't just come out in the general public and say "hey nation, we're communist now." - they ruined that back in the '60s. so we must infiltrate the communist agenda in the disguise of a 60 yr old ex-First Lady.
I know it's a joke, but I still don't understand how the most moderate Democrat in the race is the one who draws all the communism jokes.
Posted by RJT on Jan-15-2008 15:32:
I guess it's just the thought of being forced into one camp or the other that makes me want to say "fuck off" to the entire thing, which is unfortunately about as counterproductive as voting for someone you hate.
Posted by Lebezniatnikov on Jan-15-2008 15:38:
quote:
Originally posted by RJT
I guess it's just the thought of being forced into one camp or the other that makes me want to say "fuck off" to the entire thing, which is unfortunately about as counterproductive as voting for someone you hate.
there, there. Come join the good guys. Posted by denys envy on Jan-15-2008 15:46:
quote:
Originally posted by Lebezniatniko
I know it's a joke, but I still don't understand how the most moderate Democrat in the race is the one who draws all the communism jokes.
jokes aside, we're the idiots who voted jesse ventura into office.
to be fair he wasn't as bad as i thought he would be when i woke up with a hangover the next morning and said to myself "HE FUCKING WON!?"
Posted by Lebezniatnikov on Jan-15-2008 15:48:
quote:
Originally posted by denys envy
jokes aside, we're the idiots who voted jesse ventura into office.
to be fair he wasn't as bad as i thought he would be when i woke up with a hangover the next morning and said to myself "HE FUCKING WON!?"
lol touche, but in my defense, my parents voted for Skip Humphrey. Posted by RJT on Jan-15-2008 15:58:
quote:
Originally posted by Lebezniatniko
there, there. Come join the good guys.
You're just like that annoying pot dealer who's the only one in town with prime real estate - I fucking hate you, but will put up with you in the end for my own benefit.
Posted by tubularbills on Jan-15-2008 16:01:
fox news had a live cam set up in the polls this morning in michigan. and there was no one there voting at all.
i saw this at the dr's office this morning, and i fucking lol'd out loud when they were like, "we're going to pan to our LIVE! voting coverage RIGHT NOW!" all excited and then you see no one there except the guy at the help desk.
man, it was awesome.
Posted by Lebezniatnikov on Jan-15-2008 16:02:
quote:
Originally posted by RJT
I fucking hate you, but will put up with you in the end for my own benefit.
lol, ouch. Posted by RJT on Jan-15-2008 16:04:
quote:
Originally posted by Lebezniatniko
lol, ouch.
Lulz - just joking around with you man
So, go Obama?
Posted by Lebezniatnikov on Jan-15-2008 16:40:
quote:
Originally posted by RJT
Lulz - just joking around with you man
So, go Obama?
Go Santos!
Posted by RJT on Jan-15-2008 16:42:
I'm voting for Morgan Freeman.
Posted by LatinLover on Jan-15-2008 16:45:
Obama has been a shocker to the Clinton campaign. Well Obama lost NH by a landslide. But still Obama has momentum to perform well in other states. But I think in the end the Clintons will come our victorious and win the democratic nomination.
Posted by denys envy on Jan-15-2008 16:52:
quote:
Originally posted by LatinLover
Clintons
lol, like bill does anything but what hillary tells him and chase skirts in his spare time. let's not confuse ourselves here, bill is looking forward to being back in the white house, but for matters other than politics.
"uhh honey, hire that pretty one over there."
Posted by Lebezniatnikov on Jan-15-2008 16:52:
quote:
Originally posted by LatinLover
Obama has been a shocker to the Clinton campaign. Well Obama lost NH by a landslide.
Landslide? It was less than 10,000 votes.
Posted by tubularbills on Jan-15-2008 16:53:
quote:
Originally posted by denys envy
"uhh honey, hire that pretty one over there."
man, i totally heard that phrase in his voice too. Posted by denys envy on Jan-15-2008 17:01:
quote:
Originally posted by tubularbills
man, i totally heard that phrase in his voice too.
hell, i'd get all the ladies too if i had a look like that!
Posted by verndogs on Jan-15-2008 17:36:
quote:
Originally posted by Lebezniatniko
I know it's a joke, but I still don't understand how the most moderate Democrat in the race is the one who draws all the communism jokes.
+1
I still wouldn't vote for her though.
Posted by Lebezniatnikov on Jan-16-2008 02:25:
Hillary is on point tonight in the Nevada debate... I thought the race questions were going to trap her.
Been an overall very awkward debate so far... I mean, did they seriously just ask John Edwards why he has the audacity to run against such historic candidates as a white male?
Posted by RJT on Jan-16-2008 02:30:
Shhhhhhhhh, don't ruin it for me! Listening to the replay while studying tomorrow!
Posted by Lebezniatnikov on Jan-16-2008 02:36:
quote:
Originally posted by RJT
Shhhhhhhhh, don't ruin it for me! Listening to the replay while studying tomorrow!
Well the first half was certainly interesting... all "identity" type questions thusfar... the stuff you'd think Obama would love to get, and yet he is really struggling to stay on message.
edit: that response was much better from him
Posted by Lebezniatnikov on Jan-16-2008 02:50:
Oooooooh new debate format... maybe it will be a real debate now
