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-- The secret to liking trance
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quote:

Originally posted by UWM No.

The fact that virtually any club in america will play house music over trance belies whatever you choose to believe.

That being said, I'm not interested in having a "yes", "no" contest.

quote:

Originally posted by chadi That being said, I'm not interested in having a "yes", "no" contest.

You aren't? Well then I guess we'll all just accept what you say as fact because, well, you aren't interested in anyone refuting what you have to say.

quote:

The fact that virtually any club in america will play house music over trance belies whatever you choose to believe.

I'm sorry, but this is not at all true.

Where exactly have you been out across the country? I'm not looking for a "yes" or "no" here, I'm looking for a body of evidence.

They're just coming out of the woodwork this week.

quote:

Originally posted by UWM You aren't? Well then I guess we'll all just accept what you say as fact because, well, you aren't interested in anyone refuting what you have to say.

Would you like to tell me right now that most clubs in America (besides the primarily hiphop ones) are playing trance music MORE than house, or are you actually willing to show a little honesty and concede the fact that I'm right without me having to actually give you all of the scientific data that George Washington existed?

Don't bore me with your semantics.

quote:

Where exactly have you been out across the country? I'm not looking for a "yes" or "no" here, I'm looking for a body of evidence.

And if you really want to know, I've actually had the privilege of visiting every state in the USA (including Hawaii and Alaska), so I guess you could say I have a fairly accurate idea of what the club scenes are like coast to coast.

I figured this thread was on track for it anyway.

quote:

Originally posted by RJT I figured this thread was on track for it anyway.

Yes, we've already established that you're quite jealous of my body. Now if you don't mind, I'd like to know what else you'd be willing to contribute that is non-ad hominem.

quote:

Originally posted by chadi Would you like to tell me right now that most clubs in America (besides the primarily hiphop ones) are playing trance music MORE than house, or are you actually willing to show a little honesty and concede the fact that I'm right without me having to actually give you all of the scientific data that George Washington existed? Don't bore me with your semantics. And if you really want to know, I've actually had the privilege of visiting every state in the USA (including Hawaii and Alaska), so I guess you could say I have a fairly accurate idea of what the club scenes are like coast to coast.

Why are you looking for me to make statements I:

a) Have seen no evidence of?
b) Genuinely don't believe in?

Furthermore, why are we bringing semantics into this? Am I not writing in a manner that pleases you? Are you upset that what I've seen isn't consistent with what you've seen?

Why do DJs like Armin van Buuren, Paul van Dyk and Tiesto have to have their shows moved to venues outside of regular clubs? It couldn't be capacity issues, could it? No! They aren't more popular than house DJs!

Okay, you're right. The world is flat.

So you've been out to clubs in all those states, right? I know they have a big club scene in Montana. And watch out for Boise!

I'm trying to post something smart in this thread, but i can't.

Down here in Texas, trance is as big as house music. Electro is the biggest. But if you go to an FYE or any music store, you'll find just as many trance cds as house/electro. Tiesto, Armin, ATB, Trance Nation comps, Ferry, Oakenfold. Hell at the super HEB grocery store there is a music section that has Oakenfolds Creamfields set (2002) and his Voyage of Trance comps. When Tiesto played here a few months ago, it was jam packed. Same when Corsten and PVD even though he cancelled.

Thanks for responding.

quote:

The main problem is in your assumption that names like "tiesto" and "paul oakenfold" are going to be invariably associated by the public with the style "trance", when in fact, that is not the case at all.

I have to disagree with you there. From talking to other club-goers in person, I have gleaned that all of them can strike up a conversation about one of the big Trance DJs, but can't ID Sammim's "Heater", for example. This is a subjective conclusion of course, but one that has come from a lot of time spent talking to others.

Base knowledge of EDM also seems to differ depending on the region that I am in. In Atlanta, the people know about House music, and generally have a more robust sense of what's going on in the scene. In North Carolina, I get a LOT of people that may know a lot about Breaks, but otherwise only know who the top Trance DJs are, and no close to nothing about House (maybe they'll know about DJ Dan).

quote:

If you look at what what Tiesto and Paul Oakenfold have been spinning lately, a great deal of it is not actually "trance" anymore (not that much of it ever was, but you know what I mean).

Being that I don't 'follow' many tracklists besides the ones for the CDs that I buy, I can't agree or disagree with you here. I do remember a TA posting a report on what Tiesto played during the entirety of 2005. The report showed Tiesto playing his own tracks, like Traffic, well over 50 times during the shows that year! From reading the recent posts about these DJs' performances, apparently they are playing mostly their own productions and remixes, which (Pop or not), are not representing the whole of the Trance genre.

quote:

In fact, trance is probably the least popular of all the commercialized styles in EDM, despite the falsehoods blindly perpetuated by a few members of this board.

Again I have to disagree here, and I have factual evidence that "Trance" is in fact selling quite well in the States:

quote:

http://www.billboard.com/bbcom/char...e+Singles+Sales Billboard "Hot Dance Singles Sales" Chart for 1/13-1/19/08: 1. ****ry Boner - Puscifer 2. Nine Inch Nails - Every Day Is Exactly The Same 3. Mindless Self Indulgence - Straight To Video 4. Battles - Tonto 5. Cascada - What Hurts The Most 6. Animal Collective - Peacebone 7. Mindless Self Indulgence - Shut Me Up 8. Paul Van Dyk feat Jessica Sutta - White Lies 9. The Chemical Brothers - Do It Again 10. Seal - Amazing

Unfortunately I don't have much more data than that, because I'm not a Billboard.biz subscriber. Basically, PVD's new single has been on the charts for over 20 weeks, and Cascada tracks have been on the charts ever since "Everytime We Touch" became a big hit.

(I never said it was good Trance that was selling)

The "Top Electronic Albums" chart for this week shows about the same correlation:

quote:

1. Various Artists - High School Musical 2: Non-Stop Dance Party! 2. MIA - Kala 3. Daft Punk - Alive 2007 4. LCD Soundsystem - Sound Of Silver 5. Paul Oakenfold - Greatest Hits and Remixes 6. Nine Inch Nails - Y34RZ3R0R3MIX3D 7. Tiesto - ISOS 6: Ibiza 8. Trevor Simpson and Cato K - Ultra.2008 9. Gorillaz - D-Sides 10. Justice - Cross

Besides High School Musical, Trance is selling well. The fact that Oakie can out-sell Nine Inch Nails says a lot about how well known he is to the general public.

quote:

Almost every club that isn't playing hiphop is playing, guess what, HOUSE MUSIC. Randomly pick a sample of a dozen people and ask them if they know what "house music" is and you were certainly get the majority to give you the affirmative, but ask that same crowd if they've ever heard of "trance music" and you'd be surprised how few actually have -- if any.

You are right. However, we (club-goers) represent a very small minority of Americans. An majority of Americans would rather go to a plain-old "traditional/sports" bar or a "meat-market" bar than dance all night to a DJ. The Billboard sales are reflecting all of those Trance CDs that are sold to people who are just looking for a CD to exercise to. Those people probably (assuming) have little to no prior knowledge of EDM, so when they go to the Dance section to find a CD, they will look for re-assurance before dropping $15 on some music. "THE NEWEST MIX FROM THE #1 DJ IN THE WORLD!", "THE DJ THAT PLAYED AT THE OLYMPICS", et all are far more convincing of a purchase to a non-EDM fan than the often ambiguous compilations that are sitting next to those Trance CDs. If the person asks a salesperson for advice on what to get, he/she will say "That Tiesto album has been selling well, and my raver buddy told me that hes a really good DJ."

That's how good marketing campaigns work, virally. People are exposed to the brand name and tell others about it, who will tell their friends, etc. "Tiesto" is a term that the public will have heard of from a friend, or a friend of a friend, because that name has been exposed to music fans through good marketing.

quote:

House is everywhere...it is the STAPLE club music. Trance may be more well-known in europe, but the mass majority of people in America have never even heard of the name. And if you "show" them what it is, words like "techno" or "dance" or "house" will pop up in their minds.

Yes, House is everywhere, but the majority of Americans don't know that it is House, or who the artists are. They are more likely to call that jingle that plays in those HGTV "home makeover" or fashion shows "techno" than they are to call it "House", or to know that it is called "House". However, I don't think that most average Americans know that Oakie and co are "Trance" DJs, as I've heard them called "Techno" DJs more than anything else.

In the end, this is mostly subjective. In your area there may be a lot of people who know a bit about EDM, but here its more like

(Banjo plays in background)

EDIT: LOL, I found a word-filter! c*nt >> ****

quote:

Originally posted by Dojomaster26 EDIT: LOL, I found a word-filter! c*nt >> ****

cunt.

quote:

Originally posted by UWM Why are you looking for me to make statements I: a) Have seen no evidence of? b) Genuinely don't believe in?

This is exactly the semantic subterfuge I'm referring to. You are consistently failing to acknowledge my statement as true, without wishing to indict yourself by unequivocally stating the opposite.

quote:

more, why are we bringing semantics into this? Am I not writing in a manner that pleases you? Are you upset that what I've seen isn't consistent with what you've seen?

I'd really love to hear what you've seen. Please confirm that what you are saying is: "Trance music is far more popular in american clubs than house music".

quote:

Why do DJs like Armin van Buuren, Paul van Dyk and Tiesto have to have their shows moved to venues outside of regular clubs? It couldn't be capacity issues, could it? No! They aren't more popular than house DJs!

lol, you are a riot. Did it ever occur to you that they need to have events like that for a particular, less common fanbase that is WILLING to make a long distance travel and attend that particular event?

Also, you seem equally oblivious of the fact that DJ Tiesto, Paul Van Dyk and Armin Van Buuren are not even playing primarily trance music anymore, they are playing largely HOUSE MUSIC and other warped forms of tech-house and tech-trance imposters.

quote:

So you've been out to clubs in all those states, right?

Primarily on the west and east coasts, as well as some in the upper midwest.

I give up.

Edit - Actually, I'll work on getting the door takes from some bigger clubs around the midwest on Trance v House headliners and see which ones come out on top.

But I'm sure, even if I offer mathematical proof, I'll somehow still be reverting to 'semantic subterfuge'.

haha, the thread starter was scared away a whiiiiiile ago. I love TA.

quote:

Originally posted by rewind_plz I dont think so, the instruments used, synth, bass maybe predictable if that would you mean.. but a track in itself is most times unpredictible, one single track is blended with five different choons and you never know what melody will be added next to this track to give it more mass. In other generes a single tune is composed and than soundtrack, beats, lyrics revolve around that.

you abviously dont dj

quote:

Originally posted by chadi And please don't take my word for it. Try it out yourself.

I have. And anytime I tell someone I play house they ask "is that anything like trance?"

lulz

quote:

Originally posted by Ted Promo haha, the thread starter was scared away a whiiiiiile ago. I love TA.

+1

weaksauce, if you can't stand the heat gtfo!

quote:

Originally posted by bas I have. And anytime I tell someone I play house they ask "is that anything like trance?" lulz

Bas. You're lying. Stop lying. Don't indict yourself. Stop.

quote:

Originally posted by HaeD I'm trying to post something smart in this thread, but i can't.

And you know...it's you.

BLAH BLAH BLAH

TRANCE IS POP ,

BLAH BLAH BLAH

NO IT ISN'T!

BLAH BLAH BLAH

HOUSE IS POP

BLAH BLAH BLAH

NO IT ISN'T TRANCE IS...




3 cheers for TA, best forum ever...!

quote:

Originally posted by bas And you know...it's you.

the thread is cursed with stupidity

quote:

Originally posted by Dojomaster26 Thanks for responding. [quote]I have to disagree with you there. From talking to other club-goers in person, I have gleaned that all of them can strike up a conversation about one of the big Trance DJs, but can't ID Sammim's "Heater", for example. This is a subjective conclusion of course, but one that has come from a lot of time spent talking to others. Base knowledge of EDM also seems to differ depending on the region that I am in. In Atlanta, the people know about House music, and generally have a more robust sense of what's going on in the scene. In North Carolina, I get a LOT of people that may know a lot about Breaks, but otherwise only know who the top Trance DJs are, and no close to nothing about House (maybe they'll know about DJ Dan).

Unfortunately, you are appealing to your own personal anectodal experiences on state-to-state variance rather than merely acknowledging at face value the fact that house music is actually the most popular form of EDM in America besides Hiphop -- according to how accessible it is via commercial and public avenues (clubs, etc). Trust me, there are far more people going to their local clubs every night than traveling long distances to attend some obscure trance event in LA or Amsterdam.

quote:

Again I have to disagree here, and I have factual evidence that "Trance" is in fact selling quite well in the States:

I can only find it unbelievably ironic that you would use two chart-riding HOUSE tracks as evidence to bolster your idea that "trance" is more popular?! That Cascada song is not even categorized as "Trance" by most labels, it is either under "House", "Progressive House" or "Euro-House" and possibly "Hard-Trance/Dance" (even discogs reflects what I'm saying to be correct)

And as for Paul Van Dyke's "White Lies", it is labeled at least equally as "house" and "electro", if not moreso, than as "trance".

And providing the hypothetical situation that your examples were actually on your side, I can't help but notice how you so conveniently choose to use a single current snapshot example while blissfully ignoring the wider picture which has demonstrated that cheesy house music like Eric's "Call on Me" or even Rihanna's "Don't Stop The Music" consistently win the popularity contest.

quote:

Besides High School Musical, Trance is selling well. The fact that Oakie can out-sell Nine Inch Nails says a lot about how well known he is to the general public.

Again, you have yet to show me valid examples to even remotely corroborate the point you're trying to make.

quote:

You are right. However, we (club-goers) represent a very small minority of Americans. An majority of Americans would rather go to a plain-old "traditional/sports" bar or a "meat-market" bar than dance all night to a DJ. The Billboard sales are reflecting all of those Trance CDs that are sold to people who are just looking for a CD to exercise to. Those people probably (assuming) have little to no prior knowledge of EDM, so when they go to the Dance section to find a CD, they will look for re-assurance before dropping $15 on some music. "THE NEWEST MIX FROM THE #1 DJ IN THE WORLD!", "THE DJ THAT PLAYED AT THE OLYMPICS", et all are far more convincing of a purchase to a non-EDM fan than the often ambiguous compilations that are sitting next to those Trance CDs. If the person asks a salesperson for advice on what to get, he/she will say "That Tiesto album has been selling well, and my raver buddy told me that hes a really good DJ."

But yet again, you're willingly overlooking the fact that although club-goers definitely represent a minority of Americans, they also pose as the best barometer to represent the MAJORITY of people who are interested in listening to "club music".

Also, what clubs play is a direct REFLECTION of what is popular in the charts, and house has been consistently beating trance in the clubbing department for a good length of time now.

Just take Miami or LA, for example. Most of the clubs play house! That's a fact...that's not my OPINION. It isn't 1999 anymore.

quote:

That's how good marketing campaigns work, virally. People are exposed to the brand name and tell others about it, who will tell their friends, etc. "Tiesto" is a term that the public will have heard of from a friend, or a friend of a friend, because that name has been exposed to music fans through good marketing.

What you consider the DJ to be, in this case a "trance" dj, is not necessarily what the main public views him as, therefore trying to insinuate that trance is the "poppiest" of all the EDM styles is truly irresponsible and just flat out not true.

quote:

Yes, House is everywhere, but the majority of Americans don't know that it is House, or who the artists are. They are more likely to call that jingle that plays in those HGTV "home makeover" or fashion shows "techno" than they are to call it "House", or to know that it is called "House". However, I don't think that most average Americans know that Oakie and co are "Trance" DJs, as I've heard them called "Techno" DJs more than anything else.

The most accurate statement you've made. I completely agree.

quote:

In the end, this is mostly subjective. In your area there may be a lot of people who know a bit about EDM, but here its more like

You are correct. What is "cheesy" and what is "good" will always be a matter of great dispute, but a proper diagnosis on popularity can be much more easily acquired.

quote:

Originally posted by chadi Also, you seem equally oblivious of the fact that DJ Tiesto, Paul Van Dyk and Armin Van Buuren are not even playing primarily trance music anymore, they are playing largely HOUSE MUSIC

What? Are you just talking out of your ass or living in a different dimension of reality?

quote:

Originally posted by chadi Unfortunately, you are appealing to your own personal anectodal experiences on state-to-state variance rather than merely acknowledging at face value the fact that house music is actually the most popular form of EDM in America besides Hiphop -- according to how accessible it is via commercial and public avenues (clubs, etc).

quote:

Trust me, there are far more people going to their local clubs every night than traveling long distances to attend some obscure trance event in LA or Amsterdam.

I definitely agree with you there. I will point out, however, that there are many times more people than all of us EDM-fans combined that would rather go to "watch the big game" at the local pub than go to ANY sort of Dance event, period. Again, neither of us have hard numbers to prove this, but from personal observation I have seen many EDM clubs open-and-close within a year, and Top40 Clubs and sports bars stay open ever since I've been in town.

Yes, I am using personal experience as part of my argument, because there are no reports, officials surveys, or factual reports that state that the majority of Americans know who Tiesto and PVD are compared to the number who know who Mark Farina is.

And how is it a "fact" that House is the most popular form of EDM in the States? Neither of us have hard evidence to prove that House or Trance is, as a fact, more popular. I have sales charts from Billboard that tell me that Trance albums and singles are out-selling Nine Inch Nails releases, but that's about it.

quote:

I can only find it unbelievably ironic that you would use two chart-riding HOUSE tracks as evidence to bolster your idea that "trance" is more popular?!

Sorting songs by genre is the most subjective thing one can do here on TA. What you consider House, I call Trance.

quote:

That Cascada song is not even categorized as "Trance" by most labels, it is either under "House", "Progressive House" or "Euro-House" and possibly "Hard-Trance/Dance" (even discogs reflects what I'm saying to be correct)

The average American is not going to categorize his/her music with these sub-genres. The average American relates Paul Van Dyk to "Trance", because of the success of "For An Angel", a TRANCE song. The average fan is going to think that Paul Van Dyk has always been known as a TRANCE artist, therefore they will label the new material as TRANCE, regardless of what we will call the new track.

And yes, I call the Cascada track "McTrance". Its easy to eat, but the aftertaste leaves much to be desired

Also, discogs is a place for people like you and I, who care about sorting our music by sub-genres et all. The average music fan's relationship with an artist starts and ends either at the retailer, or on the artists' official websites (and Myspace nowadays), or on P2P programs. Let me repeat, TA does not represent the average listener. Very very few people outside of our communities try to hunt down every single version of every song that their favorite artist put out, or go into painstaking detail about sorting their tracks, or spend hours each week listing to the DJ's livesets and trying to ID tracks from them. The average fan will buy the CD, put it in the car or iPod, and be done with it!

quote:

And providing the hypothetical situation that your examples were actually on your side, I can't help but notice how you so conveniently choose to use a single current snapshot example while blissfully ignoring the wider picture which has demonstrated that cheesy house music like Eric's "Call on Me" or even Rihanna's "Don't Stop The Music" consistently win the popularity contest.

Where's your evidence that "Call On Me" has sold more copies than "Silence" or "For An Angel" or "9PM [Till I Come]"? Rihanna is not House music, and none of the House tracks that have been big hits have done quite as well as the Trance anthems from 1999.

(For the record, I am a much bigger fan of House than Trance. If it seems like I'm bashing the genre, I'm not.)

(The year-end Billboard charts are only available to subscribers. If anyone with a subscription can post those charts, it would be appreciated!)

quote:

Again, you have yet to show me valid examples to even remotely corroborate the point you're trying to make.

What about the albums chart? Surely the strong sales of ISOS and Oakie's Greatest Hits prove my point. And don't even try to tellme that ISOS is not a Trance comp. Heck, Ultra.2008 probably has some Trance tracks on it, but I decided not to count that one due to it covering a spectrum of commercial EDM.

quote:

Also, what clubs play is a direct REFLECTION of what is popular in the charts, and house has been consistently beating trance in the clubbing department for a good length of time now.

If you're talking about gay clubs, then yes, the club DJs' playlists are going to match up to what is charting (because the charts are filled with mostly Gay/Circuit House). And yes, you are right about House being a major player in the EDM club scene in the US. However, that does not mean that House is the best-selling genre in the States. The club-goers may be going to House events, but they are buying Trance CDs. Wouldn't Pryda and Samantha James and Deadmau5 be on the charts instead of PVD if those House fans were buying the tracks from their favorite House Producers and DJs?

The bottom line is that even though House rules the clubs, Trance rules the retail end of EDM. Trance sells more, so more Trance gets put on the shelves than House.

quote:

What you consider the DJ to be, in this case a "trance" dj, is not necessarily what the main public views him as

The public views these brand names as "Trance" DJs becuase their classic tracks are defined by people like us as "Trance". Therefore, the average person equates PVD == Trance, for instance. PVD could put out a J-Polka Handbag Jungle record, and the public would still eat it up and call it "Trance" music.

What the music actually sounds like is irrelevant. I'm talking about the labels that the masses use here.

I don't know if trance or house is/was pop, but i like 80s synth-POP/new-wave e.g. A Flock of Seagulls, OMD, Depeche Mode, Ultravox, New Order etc. they all rulled!

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