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-- The War Drums are getting louder over Iran
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Posted by hardcore trancer on Jul-13-2008 20:28:

quote:
Originally posted by The17sss
Looks like some stellar educational system for the kids here: http://www.worldsecuritynetwork.com...rticle_id=12763

Or how about this video on Hamas TV, with already brainwashed kids teaching hate on a kids show? I think your idea of "education" may be a little different than the norm.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gi-c6lbFGC4

And here's how they follow that up with an "Israli" killing their beloved cartoon character... for the kids educational purposes, you dig? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=egg83STz22E



Do you really want to play the propaganda game?you really think those children need to be told about what Isreal has done to their land and families? those kids will grow to hate Isreal no matter what.If I come and kill your whole family when you are just a kid,wouldnt you want to have revenge over their deaths?

You obviously dont know much about the region or the situation since you are trying to prove a point by posting some lame videos from youtube.


Posted by The17sss on Jul-13-2008 21:23:

quote:
Originally posted by hardcore trancer
Do you really want to play the propaganda game?you really think those children need to be told about what Isreal has done to their land and families? those kids will grow to hate Isreal no matter what.If I come and kill your whole family when you are just a kid,wouldnt you want to have revenge over their deaths?

You obviously dont know much about the region or the situation since you are trying to prove a point by posting some lame videos from youtube.


Yeah dude... obviously I know nothing. Hamas is the benevolent caregiver, and Israel is nothing more than a bloodthirsty regime hell bent on evil.

That's not propoganda from Jewish newspapers or media, that is strait from Hamas TV. I'm well aware that BOTH parties are to blame for much suffering. I never insinuated Israel is free of any blame. But you are a Hamas/Palestine apologist, and talking like anything they do is justified. I understand that you have an inherent bias because of where you are from, but I can look objectively at the situation being an outsider. When you have that hate filled rhetoric pumped into your brain from childhood, regardless of what side you are on, the chances of making real progress are seriously handicapped if you care more about revenge than peace


Posted by Kinezi on Jul-14-2008 04:45:

As far as I remember, Palestine is a democratic country, and hamas was democratically elected after the landslide win of people's will.

Now its none of our business what hamas teaches in their school, because every country has its own biased education system, in my country i was told austria was the first victim of ww2 and hitler.. but later on when i read the full story i came to know that austria gave shelter and supported hitler and never was a victim but actually the criminals who supported and welcomed hitler. So the point is, education system is tailormade according to country in every country.. like israel teaches its children how they are the sole victim and because of that they are 'special' and deserve a 'special' treatment throughout their life.


Posted by hardcore trancer on Jul-14-2008 05:09:

quote:
Originally posted by The17sss
Yeah dude... obviously I know nothing. Hamas is the benevolent caregiver, and Israel is nothing more than a bloodthirsty regime hell bent on evil.



Hamas is a resistance force against Isreali occupation and dont forget they are part of the Palestinian government elected by the people.I thought America was all about democracy and free elections?if thats the case then why cant they accept Hamas?





quote:
That's not propoganda from Jewish newspapers or media, that is strait from Hamas TV. I'm well aware that BOTH parties are to blame for much suffering.



Who are we to go and tell other nations what they can and cant teach their own children schools?



quote:
I never insinuated Israel is free of any blame. But you are a Hamas/Palestine apologist, and talking like anything they do is justified.


Defending their land and fighting the unjustifies occupation by the zionist regime is justified by me.you say you you look at things as an outsider but I havent seen you condemning Isreali behaviour towards the Palestinians.


quote:
I understand that you have an inherent bias because of where you are from, but I can look objectively at the situation being an outsider.


So because of my nationality I cant have a objective view on the situation?I can certainly say the same about you being American.

quote:
When you have that hate filled rhetoric pumped into your brain from childhood, regardless of what side you are on, the chances of making real progress are seriously handicapped if you care more about revenge than peace



The reality however is that those children will grow to hate Isreal and this will continue for many generations to come.


Posted by The17sss on Jul-14-2008 05:48:

quote:
Hamas is a resistance force against Isreali occupation and dont forget they are part of the Palestinian government elected by the people.I thought America was all about democracy and free elections?if thats the case then why cant they accept Hamas?


Yeah we are about free elections and democracy.. doesn't mean we should support someone because they were freely elected though. Hamas is almost as anti US as they are anti Israel. The US didn't think Hamas would get elected; it was a surprise here. I don't know if this is true, but we were told it was because Hamas was doing more for the people than the actual government at the time. If that's true, it was a damn good strategy because now they can impose their will/laws on the people as the ruling government and decide what and how to educate the youth.

quote:
Who are we to go and tell other nations what they can and cant teach their own children schools?


I understand your point man, but don't you agree even a littl ebit that it's wrong to start teaching that stuff at such a young age, while minds are so malleable and before they can think for themselves? I saw another video of some little girl like, 3 years old, saying "Jews are pigs... death to Israel," etc. Weather it's a Palestinian or a Jew doing it, generally speaking, it's just wrong.

quote:
Defending their land and fighting the unjustifies occupation by the zionist regime is justified by me.you say you you look at things as an outsider but I havent seen you condemning Isreali behaviour towards the Palestinians. So because of my nationality I cant have a objective view on the situation?I can certainly say the same about you being American.


A statement like that tells me, yeah, you can't possibly look at the situation objectively. It's not a knock against your intelligence man, it's just a fact that you can't have the perspective of an outsider which is definitely different. And as an American, you're right too... I can't possibly understand what it's like to not have a homeland to go to. I'm not defending Israel either by the way... I'm well aware of the reprehensible actions on both sides.



quote:
The reality however is that those children will grow to hate Isreal and this will continue for many generations to come.


You're right... I totally agree with you. It's been going on forever. As long as the majority on both sides continue to say "fuck it, this will never end," it will just keep on going. Are you ever going to go back or are you going to stay in Canada (that's where you are now, right?). Just curious


Posted by Kinezi on Jul-14-2008 07:44:

Here comes the war! Be Prepared Iran!

quote:
Prepare for a possible strike on Iran: Bush tells Israel

London, Jul 13 (PTI)US President George W Bush has given Israel a go-ahead to begin preparations for a military attack on Iran, in case talks over the country's controversial nuclear programme fail to yield results, a media report has said.
The Bush administration is said to have informed Jerusalemthat he would back an Israeli plan to strike Iran's main nuclear sites with long-range aerial weapons if diplomatic talks over Tehran's nuclear programme broke down, the Sunday Times said quoting a Pentagon official.

The American President has given Israel an "amber light" to start preparing for a possible offensive, the official told the Sunday Times.

"Amber means get on with your preparations, stand by for immediate attack and tell us when you're ready," the official as quoted as saying toThe Times.

The US President'svoice of support comes despitehis military officials' opposition to an attack on Iran, given the risks of an aerial strike.

However, theUS would not deploy American forces for such a strike nor would Israel be able to depend onits military bases in Iraq for logistical support, the official said.

Washington would also not give a "green light" to the attack without unquestionable proof thatthe Islamic Republic is involved in military preparations of its own, the report said.

Iran last week test launched a series of medium-range ballistic missiles it claimed were capable of striking Israel.

The tests prompted a threatening message from Israel defence minister Ehud Barak, who said that the Jewish state will not hesitate from taking military action against Tehran. PTI



http://www.ptinews.com/pti%5Cptisit...4A?OpenDocument


Posted by Clovis on Jul-14-2008 18:43:

quote:
Originally posted by Kinezi
US funds trains and arm Israeili terrorists.



No, but we do fund and train terrorists inside Iran.


Posted by Sunsnail on Jul-14-2008 20:19:

Who the fuck cites a hollywood movie as a source?


Posted by Krypton on Jul-15-2008 01:09:

My theory:

For the authoritarian conservatives to remain in power, they need to instill a sense of danger and fear in the people. Going to war with Iran would do such a thing. By giving Islamists a further recruitment boost, the hardliners can then point and say, "You need us because we are the only ones who can protect you." It is my opinion that the far-right wingers of this government WANT a war, not to protect America, but so they can stay in power.


Posted by Krypton on Jul-15-2008 01:15:

quote:
Originally posted by Kinezi
Here comes the war! Be Prepared Iran!



http://www.ptinews.com/pti%5Cptisit...4A?OpenDocument


1. Article full of grammatical errors or typos.
2. Completely inaccurate.


Posted by hardcore trancer on Jul-15-2008 02:29:

I ve said this before and I ll say it again,if Isreal attacks Iran they will suffer greatly for a long time.Yes I know Isreal has the greatest military etc etc but by attacking Iran they are really gonna fuck themselves up big time.Their almighty military power cant protect them all the time.


Posted by Kinezi on Jul-15-2008 03:14:

quote:
Originally posted by Krypton
1. Article full of grammatical errors or typos.
2. Completely inaccurate.


Goggle 'Amber Light to Israel' and you will find same article posted on some Israeli news paper. Maybe that one has more accurate grammer according to English (US) Format.

Here:

http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?i...ctionid=3510203


And for inaccuracy of the information stated, what you think is inaccurate? I mean you are closer to Bush Administration?


Posted by Lebezniatnikov on Jul-15-2008 03:16:

quote:
Originally posted by Krypton
My theory:

For the authoritarian conservatives to remain in power, they need to instill a sense of danger and fear in the people. Going to war with Iran would do such a thing. By giving Islamists a further recruitment boost, the hardliners can then point and say, "You need us because we are the only ones who can protect you." It is my opinion that the far-right wingers of this government WANT a war, not to protect America, but so they can stay in power.


It's not really a theory. It's the same reason the right-wingers want a war in this country - after invading Iraq, the US rallied around the GOP.


Posted by Krypton on Jul-15-2008 03:58:

quote:
Originally posted by Kinezi
Goggle 'Amber Light to Israel' and you will find same article posted on some Israeli news paper. Maybe that one has more accurate grammer according to English (US) Format.

Here:

http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?i...ctionid=3510203


And per iaccuracy of the information stated, what you think is inaccurate? I mean you are closer to Bush Administration?


I'm not seeing it in any of the major news outlets. I'm not saying you are lying, or a manipulator. I'm just saying, I don't trust that article. I see it as just a rumor.


Posted by jerZ07002 on Jul-15-2008 04:03:

quote:
Originally posted by hardcore trancer
I ve said this before and I ll say it again,if Isreal attacks Iran they will suffer greatly for a long time.Yes I know Isreal has the greatest military etc etc but by attacking Iran they are really gonna fuck themselves up big time.Their almighty military power cant protect them all the time.



please do elaborate with reasoning evidenced by something real and substantial. leave the iranian pride aside and think it out with logic.


btw...i don't disagree that it's a bad move.


Posted by hardcore trancer on Jul-15-2008 05:13:

quote:
Originally posted by jerZ07002
please do elaborate with reasoning evidenced by something real and substantial. leave the iranian pride aside and think it out with logic.


You really think Isreal will win by bombing those "nuclear sites"?Have you heard of retaliation?You do realize that there is thousands of hezbollah fighters ready for a green sigs from Iran to attack Isreal right? this is all fact and has nothing do to with "Iranian Pride".You really have to think about the fact that Iran has been planning for such attacks for many years and they have at least a few hundred rockets pointed right at Isreal.

How about Syria?they are one of Irans biggest allies,and rest asure they wont just sit and let Isreal bomb Iran.

This attack will create a chain reaction in the entire region and you can say goodbye to peace for many years to come.

Bombing Iran will not make Isreal safer by any means and anyone with some understadning of the situation would agree with that.


Posted by hardcore trancer on Jul-15-2008 05:17:

quote:
Originally posted by Kinezi
Goggle 'Amber Light to Israel' and you will find same article posted on some Israeli news paper. Maybe that one has more accurate grammer according to English (US) Format.

Here:

http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?i...ctionid=3510203


And for inaccuracy of the information stated, what you think is inaccurate? I mean you are closer to Bush Administration?



Dude give it a rest,I can show you at least a dozen articles from the last year alone that talk about plans of attacks on Iran by US/Isreal.Most of them even had dates and times of the attacks.

Alot of this crap is political game and fear mongering like always.


Posted by jerZ07002 on Jul-15-2008 18:12:

quote:
Originally posted by hardcore trancer
You really think Isreal will win by bombing those "nuclear sites"?Have you heard of retaliation?You do realize that there is thousands of hezbollah fighters ready for a green sigs from Iran to attack Isreal right? this is all fact and has nothing do to with "Iranian Pride".You really have to think about the fact that Iran has been planning for such attacks for many years and they have at least a few hundred rockets pointed right at Isreal.

How about Syria?they are one of Irans biggest allies,and rest asure they wont just sit and let Isreal bomb Iran.

This attack will create a chain reaction in the entire region and you can say goodbye to peace for many years to come.

Bombing Iran will not make Isreal safer by any means and anyone with some understadning of the situation would agree with that.


i don't think it would make israel safer. you just make these statements saying iran will fight back.....so fucking what? that's what happens in war. while the iranian military may have missiles, they have to project them over iraq. you really think the US or iraq is going to let iranian missiles fly over iraq. as to syria, they won't take a substantial move because of the enormous backlash from the US, europe, and israel. the israelis would easily handle any iranian military operations. the problem israel would face (as you noted) is the increased guerilla tactics of the terrorists organizations. your suggestions that somehow iran would mount a succesful counter attack with missiles is misinformed. those missiles sites would be identified and destroyed in tandem with any operations against nuclear facilities.

although, as you noted, this is just political bullshit, and it's in noone's interest to fight a war against iran. especially considering the iranian people seem to be the least anti-western of those in the ME.


Posted by hardcore trancer on Jul-16-2008 03:14:

quote:
Originally posted by jerZ07002
i don't think it would make israel safer. you just make these statements saying iran will fight back.....so fucking what?
that's what happens in war.


so fuckin what?Iran fights back more people will die is that what you want?or you just dont care seeing ordinary people getting killed over fuckin bullshit.I sure as hell dont want that.Point is ok Isreal attacks Iran then Iran attacks back and just goes on and on for a long time,it wont be a quick war like many in the west seem to think so.



quote:
while the iranian military may have missiles, they have to project them over iraq. you really think the US or iraq is going to let iranian missiles fly over iraq.


You really think Iran is gonna show off their missle sites to everyone?This is what I mean when I say people underestimate the Iranians.Also dont forget what will happen to the price of oil if such attacks to take place.Another poing to keep in mind is the fact that Iran can easily block Strait of Hormuz and that could cause alot of damage to the oil industry world wide.

quote:
as to syria, they won't take a substantial move because of the enormous backlash from the US, europe, and israel. the israelis would easily handle any iranian military operations. the problem israel would face (as you noted) is the increased guerilla tactics of the terrorists organizations.



Again dont buy into what the media says about Irans capabalities,one thing I can tell you is that they have been speding a shitload of money on their millitary when their war on Iran ended in 1988.There is alot that we dont know about their actual capabilites.

quote:
your suggestions that somehow iran would mount a succesful counter attack with missiles is misinformed. those missiles sites would be identified and destroyed in tandem with any operations against nuclear facilities.


You make it sound simple and thats fine and I guess we ll just have to wait and see.

quote:
although, as you noted, this is just political bullshit, and it's in noone's interest to fight a war against iran. especially considering the iranian people seem to be the least anti-western of those in the ME.


Thats exactly it,by attacking Iran you will turn the people against west and that will not be good for the neocons agenda.Lets hope Washington realizes this fact and doesnt go ahead with another unjustified attack in the middle east.


Posted by Krypton on Jul-16-2008 03:24:

quote:
Originally posted by hardcore trancer Thats exactly it,by attacking Iran you will turn the people against west and that will not be good for the neocons agenda.Lets hope Washington realizes this fact and doesnt go ahead with another unjustifies attack in the middle east.


Actually the neocons and authoritarian conservatives as I now call most of them, would love nothing more than to do to Iran what they did to Iraq. They would view it as a positive to encourage more terrorism. If there is more terrorism, there is an excuse for them to power. They could use "wartime powers" to increase their hardline policies, which is exactly what Bush/Cheney did.


Posted by LazFX on Jul-16-2008 15:06:

quote:
Originally posted by Krypton
Actually the neocons and authoritarian conservatives as I now call most of them, would love nothing more than to do to Iran what they did to Iraq. They would view it as a positive to encourage more terrorism. If there is more terrorism, there is an excuse for them to power. They could use "wartime powers" to increase their hardline policies, which is exactly what Bush/Cheney did.


an endless cycle......


Posted by Clovis on Jul-16-2008 18:04:

quote:
You can always hear the people who are willing to sacrifice somebody else's life. They're plenty loud and they talk all the time. You can find them in churches and schools and newspapers and legislatures and congress. That's their business. They sound wonderful. Death before dishonor. This ground sanctified by blood. These men who died so gloriously.
They shall not have died in vain. Our noble dead.
Hmmmm.
But what do the dead say?
Did anybody ever come back from the dead any single one of the millions who got killed did any one of them ever come back and say by god I'm glad I'm dead because death is always better than dishonor? Did they say I'm glad I died to make the world safe for democracy] Did they say I like death better than losing liberty? Did any of them ever say it's good to think I got my guts blown out for the honor of my country? Did any of them ever say look at me I'm dead but I died for decency and that's better than being alive? Did any of them ever say here I am and I've been rotting for two years in a foreign grave but it's wonderful to die for your native land? Did any of them say hurray I died for womanhood and I'm happy see how I sing even though my mouth choked with worms?
Nobody but the dead know whether all these things people talk a;bout are worth dying for or not. And the dead can't talk. So the words about noble deaths and sacred blood and honor and such are all put into dead lips by grave robbers and fakes who have no right to speak for the dead. If a man says death before dishonor he is either a fool or a liar because he doesn't know what death is. He isn't able to judge. He only knows about living. He doesn't know anything about dying. If he is a fool and believes in death before dishonor let him go ahead and die. But all the little guys who are too busy to fight should be left alone. And all the guys who say death before dishonor is pure bull the important thing is life before death they should be left alone too. Because the guys who say life isn't worth living without some principle so important you're willing to die for it they are all nuts. And the guys who say you'll see there'll come a time you can't escape you're going to have to fight and die because it'll mean your very life why they are also nuts. They are talking like fools. They are saying that two and two make nothing. They are saying that a man will have to die in order to protect his life. If you agree to fight you agree to die. Now if you die to protect your life you aren't alive anyhow so how is there any sense in a thing like that? A man doesn't say I will starve myself to death to keep from starving. He doesn't say I will spend all my money in order to save my money. He doesn't say I will burn my house down in order to keep it from burning. Why then should he be willing to die for the privilege of living There ought to be at least as much common sense about living and dying as there is about going to the grocery store and buying a loaf of bread.
And all the guys who died all the five million or seven million or ten million who went out and died to make the world safe for democracy to make the world safe for words without meaning how did they feel about it just before they died? How did they feel as they watched their blood pump out into the mud? How did they feel when the gas hit their lungs and began eating them all away? How did they feel as they lay crazed in hospitals and looked death straight in the face and saw him come and take them? I! the thing they were fighting for was important enough to die for then it was also important enough for them to be thinking about it in the last minutes of their lives. That stood to reason. Life is awfully important so if you've given it away you'd ought to think with all your mind in the last moments of your life about the thing you traded it for. So did all those kids die thinking of democracy and freedom and liberty and honor and the safety of the home and the stars and stripes forever?
You're goddamn right they didn't.
They died crying in their minds like little babies. They forgot the thing they were fighting for the things they were dying for. They thought about things a man can understand. They died yearning for the face of a friend. They died whimpering for the voice of a mother a father a wife a child They died with their hearts sick for one more look at the place where they were born please god just one more look. They died moaning and sighing for life. They knew what was important They knew that life was everything and they died with screams and sobs. They died with only one thought in the* minds and that was I want to live I want to live I want to live.
He ought to know.
He was the nearest thing to a dead man on earth.
He was a dead man with a mind that could still think. He knew all the answers that the dead knew and couldn't think about. He could speak for the dead because he was one of them. He was the first of all the soldiers who had died since the beginning of time who still had a brain left to think with. Nobody could dispute with him. Nobody could prove him wrong. Because nobody knew but he.
He could tell all these high-talking murdering sonsofbitches who screamed for blood just how wrong they were. He could tell them mister there's nothing worth dying for I know because I'm dead.
There's no word worth your life. I would rather work in a coal mine deep under the earth and never see sunlight and eat crusts and water and work twenty hours a day. I would rather do that than be dead. I would trade democracy for life. I would trade independence and honor and freedom and decency for life. I will give you all these things and you give me the power to walk and see and hear and breathe the air and taste my food. You take the words. Give me back my life. I'm not asking for a happy life now. I'm not asking for a decent life or an honorable life or a free life. I'm beyond that. I'm dead so I'm simply asking for life. To live. To feel. To be something that moves over the ground and isn't dead. I know what death is and all you people who talk about dying for words don't even know what life is.
There's nothing noble about dying. Not even if you die for honor. Not even if you die the greatest hero the world ever saw. Not even if you're so great your name will never be forgotten and who's that great? The most important thing is your life little guys. You're worth nothing dead except for speeches. Don't let them kid you any more. Pay no attention when they tap you on the shoulder and say come along we've got to fight for liberty or whatever their word is there's always a word.
Just say mister I'm sorry I got no time to die I'm too busy and then turn and run like hell. If they say coward why don't pay any attention because it's your job to live not to die. If they talk about dying for principles that are bigger than life you say mister you're a liar Nothing is bigger than life There's nothing noble in death. What is noble about lying in the ground and rotting. What's noble about never seeing the sunshine again? What's noble about having your legs and arms blown off? What's noble about being an idiot? What's noble about being blind and deaf and dumb? What's noble about being dead. Because when you're dead mister it's all over. It's the end. You're less than a dog less than a rat less than a bee or an ant less than a white maggot crawling around on a dungheap. You're dead mister and you died for nothing.
You're dead mister. Dead.


Posted by Kinezi on Jul-16-2008 18:22:

quote:
Originally posted by Clovis


Again?

Will you stop plagarizing other people's stuff and write your opinion..?

I have some questions for you:

1. Do you think invasion of Iran will be succesfull? Mission will be accompolished?
2. Do you think its will make world better and more peaceful after invading Iran?
3. How long you think US will remain in Iran? When will this invasion end? And withdrawl begin.. where the end to this? Where is the end to this 'War on Terrorism'?
4. Do you think if US dosent invades Iran than Iran will go ahead and nuke Israel in near future? By near future I mean 20 years.. if the world survives global warming till than..


Posted by Clovis on Jul-16-2008 18:38:

quote:
Originally posted by Kinezi
Again?

Will you stop plagarizing other people's stuff and write your opinion..?



What the fuck are you talking about. Thats a quote from Johnny Got His Gun. How you surmised that I was attempting to pass that on as my own writing is beyond me, I thought it was a pretty obvious passage. I think it lends itself to the present situation where we are on the verge of once again starting a war for almost no reason.

quote:


I have some questions for you:

1. Do you think invasion of Iran will be succesfull? Mission will be accompolished?


No. It would be disastrous, and impossible to execute because the troops are simply not available.

quote:

2. Do you think its will make world better and more peaceful after invading Iran?


Absolutely not.

quote:

3. How long you think US will remain in Iran? When will this invasion end? And withdrawl begin.. where the end to this? Where is the end to this 'War on Terrorism'?


I'm still hoping we do not put troops on the ground there or attack, and that we withdraw our covert operations from within the country.
quote:

4. Do you think if US dosent invades Iran than Iran will go ahead and nuke Israel in near future? By near future I mean 20 years.. if the world survives global warming till than..


No, I don't. If Iran nuked Israel, they or the US would almost certainly reciprocate.



Once again, I have no idea why you think that just because we don't agree on certain things, all of my opinions are automatically contrary to yours. Your inability to see anything objectively on this forum makes for pretty poor discussion, I'm sure everyone else would agree.


Posted by Kinezi on Jul-16-2008 18:43:

Well okay than, you seems to be sensible.. get undressed and camp putside white house.. PROTEST!! You Americans dont protest.. thats the whole problem.. stop this or it will get back to you.. and only you Americans can do this.. Least you can do is throw an egg on Bush or smash his face with a pie.. that would be enough to stop the invasion of Iran. Is that asking for too much?


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