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quote:

Originally posted by kr00t0n salami slide

Shit I spat my drink out.

i think this thread has the most attempts of self justification and examples of self contradiction in TA history.

no matter what justifications you give yourself to feel better, it will never change the selfishness of the act itself.

quote:

Originally posted by Frenchie I can't believe some of you are making excuses or justifying cheating. How?

That's exactly what I'm trying to understand! I usually debate with you for the sake of it, but this time around, we're on the same boat

quote:

Originally posted by Lira That's exactly what I'm trying to understand! I usually debate with you for the sake of it, but this time around, we're on the same boat

Holy crap! That's unheard of. I'm not sure I like this.

quote:

Originally posted by Frenchie Shit I spat my drink out.

And I made it up then and there.

*proud*

quote:

Originally posted by Lira Here's what's left to ask ourselves: Does belief in free-will really make us (or give us the impression that we're) more independent

Of course. Why would it not? If you see your behavior as "caused" by circumstances external to you rather than as an effect of your will, then any temptation can become an excuse for acting in some way that hurts other people.

quote:

Originally posted by Frenchie Holy crap! That's unheard of. I'm not sure I like this.

Yeah, it feels weird.

...

Ben, where the hell are you?

Cheating per se is probably biologically advantageous; whatever subjective moral framework we impose upon the behavior of human beings strikes me as a giant, rancid red herring.

The real reason we should view cheating as repugnant - if we should at all - seems to be that, as a breach of an express or implied commitment, it reduces the ability of human beings generally to rely on the commitments of others, and thereby discourages interdependence and cooperation, which reduces behavioral efficiency.

Of course, that leaves open the question of whether some particular commitment in question has sufficient utility to be justified. If we can efficiently determine that a particular commitment does not, then the prudent thing would seem to be to simply refrain from making it, although, considering how emotionally fragile human beings tend to be, this may be generally impracticable.

quote:

Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles Of course. Why would it not? If you see your behavior as "caused" by circumstances external to you rather than as an effect of your will, then any temptation can become an excuse for acting in some way that hurts other people.

the short term would be simply "cause and affect".

quote:

Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles Of course. Why would it not?

Because not every culture sees free-will the way westerners do. Yet, in cultures where free-will is non-existent, people can still live a moral live according to their standards.

So, if morality is present both in deterministic and libertarian societies, are we to consider free-will as being responsible for morality?

quote:

Originally posted by Arbiter Cheating per se is probably biologically advantageous; whatever subjective moral framework we impose upon the behavior of human beings strikes me as a giant, rancid red herring. The real reason we should view cheating as repugnant - if we should at all - seems to be that, as a breach of an express or implied commitment, it reduces the ability of human beings generally to rely on the commitments of others, and thereby discourages interdependence and cooperation, which reduces behavioral efficiency. Of course, that leaves open the question of whether some particular commitment in question has sufficient utility to be justified. If we can efficiently determine that a particular commitment does not, then the prudent thing would seem to be to simply refrain from making it, although, considering how emotionally fragile human beings tend to be, this may be generally impracticable.

I'm not sure it's biologically advantageous either: I actually know a guy who got divorced once he realised his daughter didn't look anything like him (and, after a couple of DNA tests, it was clear he was not the father). So, if you're the biological father in this case, your offspring is not being looked after. Even if you play with the possibilities, the downsides probably don't make it worth the risk.

quote:

Originally posted by Lira Because not every culture sees free-will the way westerners do. Yet, in cultures where free-will is non-existent, people can still live a moral live according to their standards. So, if morality is present both in deterministic and libertarian societies, are we to consider free-will as being responsible for morality?

What society is "determinist?"

I'm not aware of any culture in which people will refrain from punishing some action they consider unacceptable because the offender supposedly "couldn't help himself," except for in certain extreme circumstances (gun to the head, mental or neurological disorder, etc.).

quote:

Originally posted by elFreak i think this thread has the most attempts of self justification and examples of self contradiction in TA history. no matter what justifications you give yourself to feel better, it will never change the selfishness of the act itself.

+1, cheating is the worst action you could ever do to a SO. but everyone who's posted already knows that.

"once a cheater, always a cheater?" not necessarily true imo, but for the most part it's proven itself to be true time and time again.

quote:

Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles What society is "determinist?"

I've got some notes at home about it, with sources and whatnot, remind me to look it up later if I forget to post it in this thread.

quote:

Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles I'm not aware of any culture in which people will refrain from punishing some action they consider unacceptable because the offender supposedly "couldn't help himself," except for in certain extreme circumstances (gun to the head, mental or neurological disorder, etc.).

If I'm not mistaken, the current president of South Africa got away with a charge of rape because "it was the only thing a Zulu could've done", although it goes against what I said about morality.

Also, think of the ancient greeks. Oedipus, as I recall it, wasn't considered guilt/responsible for what he did, and I wonder if he would be punished for his actions if he were brought before a jury. Sure, he's a fictional character, but he was a healthy young man whose actions were fated to happen. If a similar case happened in reality, do you really think the wrong-doer would be held responsible for that?

That's a genuine question.

quote:

Originally posted by Lira I'm not sure it's biologically advantageous either: I actually know a guy who got divorced once he realised his daughter didn't look anything like him (and, after a couple of DNA tests, it was clear he was not the father). So, if you're the biological father in this case, your offspring is not being looked after. Even if you play with the possibilities, the downsides probably don't make it worth the risk.

The mere fact that people have impulses to cheat is fairly strong evidence that it is biologically advantageous. If it was disadvantageous, then evolution would have probably selected against those impulses long ago. There are certainly counter-arguments to that, of course, but I don't have time to go into them right now.

quote:

Originally posted by Arbiter The mere fact that people have impulses to cheat is fairly strong evidence that it is biologically advantageous. If it was disadvantageous, then evolution would have probably selected against those impulses long ago. There are certainly counter-arguments to that, of course, but I don't have time to go into them right now.

yeah. people want to spread copies of their DNA as much as possible, from biological POV.

but humans aren't animals. because we can think, we're beyond animalistic instincts, or else human society would be run like a pack of wild dogs or monkeys or whatever. (IE, might = right, no sense of justice, etc)

Well, suicide isn't biologically advantageous, nor I think homosexualism is. Yet, both happen quite frequently.

quote:

Originally posted by Yohan but humans aren't animals. because we can think, we're beyond animalistic instincts, or else human society would be run like a pack of wild dogs or monkeys or whatever. (IE, might = right, no sense of justice, etc)

We're beyond animalistic instincts, but we cannot forget we ARE animals.

quote:

Originally posted by Lira We're beyond animalistic instincts, but we cannot forget we ARE animals.

right.

hence why I think humans should be above animalistic behaviours

(/stoicism)

quote:

Originally posted by Lira Well, suicide isn't biologically advantageous, nor I think homosexualism is. Yet, both happen quite frequently.

Certainly not at the individual level, but both could at least theoretically be advantageous at the population level, presuming that only a fraction of the population has those impulses.

Of course, either could easily be a spandrel... and so, at least theoretically, could cheating. But that seems unlikely since there are obvious advantages and disadvantages to cheating, so it seems unlikely that the trait would not be selected for one way or the other.

quote:

Originally posted by Frenchie I can't believe some of you are making excuses or justifying cheating. How?

Reasons and excuses are two different things. Sat I were feeling badly about myself and banged some random bar slut (let's call her Trisha) because I thought it would make me feel better about myself... well feeling bad about myself may explain why I banged this "Trisha"; however, it doesn't excuse it. I'm not making excuses, just offering explanation.

-people cheat because they see the relationship going nowhere
-they cheat because they rebounded too quickly and don't appreciate what they have
-they cheat because they don't trust their gf/bf
-they cheat for validation
-they cheat because in the world they created with the friends they choose, they figure everyone's doing it.
-they cheat because looks trumps everything (values too shallow)

all are character flaws, imo.

Sometimes the cheater needs to be cheated on to change self-centered behaviour. Sometimes that's all it takes.

- Dr Philth.

hmm i like the idea of spreading my seed around though, to make sure my genes live on

the next time im getting with a random girl who doesnt know my name/phone number i should just impregnate her at the last second? sounds like a plan

quote:

Originally posted by Moral Hazard Reasons and excuses are two different things. Sat I were feeling badly about myself and banged some random bar slut (let's call her Trisha) because I thought it would make me feel better about myself... well feeling bad about myself may explain why I banged this "Trisha"; however, it doesn't excuse it. I'm not making excuses, just offering explanation.

Justifying it makes it seem like it's OK to do. Excuses you just make to try and justify.

Never was into cheating...even when I was unhappy. Id end it first. Too stressful and I wouldnt want it done to me. Seems to working so far.

quote:

Originally posted by Frenchie Justifying it makes it seem like it's OK to do. Excuses you just make to try and justify.

Explaining the cause of it, is neither justifying nor excusing it.

quote:

Originally posted by Lira Ben, where the hell are you?

Me? I am here...somewhat.

quote:

Originally posted by gehzumteufel Explaining the cause of it, is neither justifying nor excusing it. Me? I am here...somewhat.

It's all right. At least your opinion differs from mine and Tricia's. If we all came to a consensus, the world would implode

edit: Usually, I'm the dissident

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