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-- 'No God' Ads, Soon To Appear On TTC Vehicles, Spark Heated Debate
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quote:

Originally posted by evil_cookie Richard Dawkins

if there is another dude more of a pompous self righteous arse than this dude, I haven't seen him yet.

oh wait. Chomsky comes pretty close

hate to tell you but there are lots of toxins in the body. Also in the food we eat, the drinks we drink...

quote:

Originally posted by daves And are you personally comfortable in that, or do you also feel the need to convince as many others as you can? And also slap the people who do believe right in the faces by saying they are "probably" full of shit. Because you know, that's what it is doing when you make a statement saying "There's probably no God". This could easily have been an ad appealing to other people out there who do not believe... it could have been actually thought-provoking. There's nothing thought-provoking about saying there's probably no God. It's tripe. There's nothing particularly intelligent about it at all. It's very polarizing.

I am totally comfortable with my beliefs. I never tell others that they I am right and they are wrong. If religion makes some people happy then that is something positive...so they should stick with that.

Also, not all ads are meant to be thought-provoking. Every single carton of cigarettes have a surgeons general warning and yet...millions of people still choose to smoke. Is that intelligent? Seems pretty stupid to me.

quote:

Originally posted by love_child I am totally comfortable with my beliefs. I never tell others that they I am right and they are wrong. If religion makes some people happy then that is something positive...so they should stick with that. Also, not all ads are meant to be thought-provoking. Every single carton of cigarettes have a surgeons general warning and yet...millions of people still choose to smoke. Is that intelligent? Seems pretty stupid to me.

+1

quote:

Originally posted by love_child I am totally comfortable with my beliefs. I never tell others that they I am right and they are wrong. If religion makes some people happy then that is something positive...so they should stick with that. Also, not all ads are meant to be thought-provoking. Every single carton of cigarettes have a surgeons general warning and yet...millions of people still choose to smoke. Is that intelligent? Seems pretty stupid to me.

did you just use something that can kill you to something that is intangible?

wow

quote:

Originally posted by Inrush hate to tell you but there are lots of toxins in the body. Also in the food we eat, the drinks we drink...

i suppose its up to how you interpret, but if you eat or drink, the 'toxins' doesnt fuck you up right away

you do weed or do shrooms, you're going to get fucked up pretty fast

i take the basis of drunkard as basis of what is ok or not. seems moderate consumption of alcohol is ok. excessive amount that you're a drunkard not cool

quote:

Originally posted by love_child Also, not all ads are meant to be thought-provoking.

Not... even ads from the Freethought Association? Lol?

My brain hurts alot right now.

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Originally posted by Inrush You didnt get my point so i will go straight to it... The Bible does not directly address any form of drug use. There are NO express prohibitions against cocaine, heroin, ecstasy , or methamphetamine. If you can show me the passage in the bible that says you can't do drugs please tell I want to know.

I think it took me all of 10 second on google to find a webpage that provides the answers your looking for. But people like you making me laugh, because where the fuck in the bible would it comment to ecstasy or cocaine, since none of those drugs were even discovered or introduced during those times. So its gonna be pretty hard to find the direct quote from Jesus saying "Thou cannot snort til after 10".

If you think that being christian/catholic and doing heavy drugs is acceptable behavior within the church, youre definitely off your rocker. If you can get a few priest to agree that snorting cocaine is fine in the Lord's eyes, then be my guest, you can recite that silly stupid shit excuse you just wrote to me over and over again. Until then, give me a fuckin break, everyone wants to bend the rules within the religion, but sorry, doesnt really work that way, bible is God's word, and you should atleast be man enough to follow it if you believe in it.

WEBSITE ABOUT BIBLE AND DRUGS

Heres the summary of it all.

quote:

The Bible teaches us that �denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in this present world� (Titus 2:12).

Who's to say Jesus didn't smoke weed? Marijuana only became the devils drug in 1930 or something like that. Before that hemp was used and consumed by a lot of different cultures.

quote:

Originally posted by Yohan i suppose its up to how you interpret, but if you eat or drink, the 'toxins' doesnt fuck you up right away you do weed or do shrooms, you're going to get fucked up pretty fast i take the basis of drunkard as basis of what is ok or not. seems moderate consumption of alcohol is ok. excessive amount that you're a drunkard not cool

its the same thing with smoking. Just because someone smokes they cant very religious? Smoking has great effects on the body and your health. Its not like people dont know this. Im saying just because someone is a coke head or a crack head or a pot head doesnt mean they cant be super religious.

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Originally posted by Rodrico I think it took me all of 10 second on google to find a webpage that provides the answers your looking for. But people like you making me laugh, because where the fuck in the bible would it comment to ecstasy or cocaine, since none of those drugs were even discovered or introduced during those times. So its gonna be pretty hard to find the direct quote from Jesus saying "Thou cannot snort til after 10". If you think that being christian/catholic and doing heavy drugs is acceptable behavior within the church, youre definitely off your rocker. If you can get a few priest to agree that snorting cocaine is fine in the Lord's eyes, then be my guest, you can recite that silly stupid shit excuse you just wrote to me over and over again. Until then, give me a fuckin break, everyone wants to bend the rules within the religion, but sorry, doesnt really work that way, bible is God's word, and you should atleast be man enough to follow it if you believe in it. WEBSITE ABOUT BIBLE AND DRUGS Heres the summary of it all.

quote:

GotQuestions.org is a volunteer ministry of dedicated and trained servants who have a desire to assist others in their understanding of God, Scripture, salvation, and other spiritual topics. We are Christian, Protestant, conservative, evangelical, fundamental, and non-denominational. We view ourselves as a para-church ministry, coming alongside the church to help people find answers to their spiritually related questions.

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Originally posted by infinity HiGH Who's to say Jesus didn't smoke weed? Marijuana only became the devils drug in 1930 or something like that. Before that hemp was used and consumed by a lot of different cultures.

Well now youre going into totally different territory, whos to say he didnt bang hookers, and play dice in the back alleys of Jerusalem as well?

quote:

Originally posted by Inrush its the same thing with smoking. Just because someone smokes they cant very religious? Smoking has great effects on the body and your health. Its not like people dont know this. Im saying just because someone is a coke head or a crack head or a pot head doesnt mean they cant be super religious.

But would you not agree that disobeying the laws and practices of a religion make them less religious. Im not saying you have to be Mother Theresa to be catholic, but lets be honest, smoking crack isnt something the Pope does every Wednesday. I would hope his more devout followers would understand why.

quote:

Originally posted by Rodrico to ecstasy or cocaine, since none of those drugs were even discovered or introduced during those times. Heres the summary of it all.

... no way!

Im putting it in our terms. of cource the didnt have cocaine or ecstasy. But the did have ways to get high. Im just saying it in terms that we know.

quote:

Originally posted by Inrush its the same thing with smoking. Just because someone smokes they cant very religious? Smoking has great effects on the body and your health. Its not like people dont know this. Im saying just because someone is a coke head or a crack head or a pot head doesnt mean they cant be super religious.

but they'd be guilty of sin, based upon generally accepted consensus of relationship between drugs and christians by religious scholars

kinda like saying, a chick can still be religious and save her virginity for marriage if she only does anal

quote:

Originally posted by Rodrico But would you not agree that disobeying the laws and practices of a religion make them less religious. Im not saying you have to be Mother Theresa to be catholic, but lets be honest, smoking crack isnt something the Pope does every Wednesday. I would hope his more devout followers would understand why.

i agree with that but still you cant say someone is not religious just because the have a vice like that.

quote:

Originally posted by Inrush i agree with that but still you cant say someone is not religious just because the have a vice like that.

Of course you can be religious and do drugs, just depends on the religion you're following. Cant be catholic or christian and snort lines, just doesn't work in that God's gran scheme of things. Sorry, hate to burst your bubble.

quote:

Originally posted by daves Not... even ads from the Freethought Association? Lol? My brain hurts alot right now.

free-thought and thought-provoking...two totally different things there

quote:

Originally posted by El K Dee did you just use something that can kill you to something that is intangible? wow

I was just trying to prove that people dont give a shit about ads...

Problem is people are focusing so much on ads that they shouldnt...like the one people are discussing in this thread.

quote:

Originally posted by jon jon

GWARTQZ!!!

If they allow other people to post similar ads such as "if you dont believe you are a sinner" etc then im fine with it. If it becomes a double standard then i have a big problem with it.

Freedom of expression should be applied equally

quote:

Originally posted by English Rachel They are collectively NOT believing. They are making it ok to NOT believe. They are not telling anyone what they should and shouldn't think so how can they be a religion or a cult????????

Do you ever see adds such as THERE PROBABLY IS GOD, SO YOU BETTER BEHAVE, well if there were I didn't pay attention to it, I think this is nonsense the city as a whole has bigger issues to deal with, I'm not religious, but religious people don't bother me either ... so whats the problem and need for it?

I was a little hesitant to post here after my initial little approval, but I feel compelled to point out a few things.

First, you can certainly exercise your freedom of religion; however, we also have the right to freedom from religion.

Second, religious belief or lack there of, is private--so keep your delusions to yourself. I completely respect your privacy to practice whatever the hell is you want to practice--as far as faith is concerned--but that�s not enough is it? Religious people feel obliged to somehow try to justify their beliefs and/or impose them on to others. It is as if it�s not enough that they themselves believe it, nope, I have to belief it as well. Please spare us your quotes from your holy books--keep them to yourself.

I have no problem with individuals and their private beliefs. The overwhelming and growing problem with religion is that it is the exact opposite--you're wrong, I'm right, my God is true, your God is false, I will be in heaven, and you will burn in hell. I can literally give you hundreds of books to read on this, but to save time, all I ask is that we examine the past and the present affairs of religion in causing global scale conflicts. I'll give you an example close to home.

In June of 2003 President George Bush said to the Palestinian leaders in an interview that God told him to attack Iraq.

It�s amazing really--if you are so confident of your convictions, why not just be happy that you�re going to prosper in the afterlife, and just let everybody else live their own lives. Why are you people so upset about these posters? Does your God cease to suddenly exist because a poster was printed? Is your God so insecure or are you that insecure about your faith?

Hell, even if the poster said �There is no God,� you are still being absolutely stupid to get upset over it. As the same principle applies: are your convictions so fragile that they�re disturbed by an alternative point of view? And that�s all this is, is an alternative way of looking at life.

quote:

Originally posted by Yohan oh please religion is like any other moral values. it's similar to another philosophical idea do you begrudge your parents to forcing you to be polite to strangers, or have good table manners, or teaching you what they think is good and right? it is a parents prerogative to raise their kids however they feel is right. likewise when kids become old enough to reason and make decisions for themselves, it should be up to the kids to figure out whether how their parents brought them up is good and correct i guess i should be upset next time some canadian parents force their kids to play hockey, because it's a good canadian thing to do eh i'm also having a good laugh at your portrayal like atheism is some sort of innocent idea that all of humans should embrace

Yohan, you are completely wrong on this.

I think it's important to note the difference between providing information and giving information. I am all for providing a child with the Bible, the Koran, the Torah, a physics text book, a philosophy book etc... and allowing the child to come to a conclusion for him or herself. But when you label a child a Muslim child or a Christian child simply due to faith of their parents--that is forcing your ideas on a child--as the child is far too young to understand the concepts he is being labeled with, never mind being allowed to make the choice him or herself.

And by comparing it to teaching your child to play hockey you�re trivializing the topic. That is, some religious teachings are directly contradictory to what we scientifically know--this is a fact. Even Francis Collins said in his book that we can only find God though faith and not evidence. Christianity, for instance teaches certain stuff about the creation of the universe, life and how we came to be that is simply not aligned with logic--these are facts Yohan.

So when you raise a child from birth--FROM BIRTH--to have unquestioning faith to doctrines that the child CANNOT understand or evaluate at his age, that is indoctrination. However, as I�ve mentioned, if you give the child time to reach an age where he or she can evaluate and think for him or herself, I have no problem with providing that child with various different scientific or otherwise religious information on how, and why life is, the way it is.

In respects to atheism supposedly portrayed as this innocent doctrine, I disagree and I think we have different understandings of faith and atheism or anti-theist like myself, someone who is scientifically inclined. Science does not need to be portrayed as an amoral, apathetic, or sometime cynical point of view; on the contrary, science takes great delight in attempting to answer intricate questions of life, and takes even more delight in hypothesizing what we have yet to unravel. It is a roller coaster ride--sometimes you're right, and sometimes you're wrong; science is always in a state of flux, scientists exult when they are proven wrong by other scientists, because that's all more motivation for them to work harder. In short, science is the study of the world, of life, of the unknown--and I much rather take pleasure in not knowing certain things, but rather having the confidence, that as we advance, we'll get a little closer to the answers; as opposed to having all supposed answers provided in holy scripture--doesn't leave much room for the imagination does it...

Also, the aforementioned scientists and believer, American Geneticist Francis Collins makes his entire argument in defense of God based on two things: the counterintuitiveness of altruism in evolution via natural selection and the ambiguity and the origins of Moral Law. He argues that due to discrepancies in behavior in species, the current limitations of science, coupled with the assumption that altruism is counter-productive to evolution, God must be the figure who is responsible for our moral sense; or else he argues, we could not explain why species tend to be good--altruistic.

What Collins fails to recognize, and indeed the majority of religious people, is that, first it is fallacious to invoke God simply because we have not yet found out how a particular principle or species operates. Secondly, there are brilliant alternatives that have an immense amount of evidence and consensus in the academic community. One alternative is kin selection. In short, kin selection displays how altruism and the evolutionary premise of propagating the species are complimentary principles. An example of this would be if one brother was to sacrifice himself in order to save his other brother--in this case, not only is one being altruistic but more importantly the genes which the brothers share are going to be passed on, therefore it is absolutely beneficial.

In respects to moral law and ethics, likewise there are dozens of alternatives which are in practice and theory far more sound than the answers advocated by any faith based system. In particular Memetics theory--put forth by evolutionary biologist and renowned public intellectual Prof Richard Dawkins. Meme theory illustrates how culture and faith principles are biologically passed down from one generation to the next--a sort of advanced mechanism of heredity. Additionally, if you're not merely convinced by the evidence, then I'd say, (to borrow from Christopher Hitches,) that how insulting is it for people to tell you that the only reason you are doing good is because your actions are divinely governed? This is an absolute insult and complete disregard of our own, very much developed faculty of reason.

In short: keep your private beliefs--private.

quote:

Originally posted by Jayx1 If they allow other people to post similar ads such as "if you dont believe you are a sinner" etc then im fine with it. If it becomes a double standard then i have a big problem with it. Freedom of expression should be applied equally

No. I would have a problem with that. Its such a scolding tone. It feels like the ad is forcing ideas onto readers.

This new ad is different. It creates thought and conversation without forcing an idea.


If other ads said "if you dont believe you may be a sinner" or "are you a sinner" then I would be fine with it.

quote:

Originally posted by Rodrico But would you not agree that disobeying the laws and practices of a religion make them less religious. Im not saying you have to be Mother Theresa to be catholic, but lets be honest, smoking crack isnt something the Pope does every Wednesday. I would hope his more devout followers would understand why.

Smoking crack isn't something the Pope does every Wednesday, but the pope probably lies, probably has impure thoughts, probably commits many other sins (pardoning gay pedophiles anyone?). And yet, he's held in great esteem within the Catholic religion.

If we're talking Christian faith then you can't just look at a coke-snortin religious zealot and say "What a hypocrite". Coke-snortin is just ONE sin among MANY that we can commit. "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." Jesus (who committed no sin) died in our place, that we might be forgiven through him, no matter what our sin (remember, just before he died on the cross, he forgave a robber who expressed his faith and asked for his forgiveness). Now, farbeit from me to declare it's ok to snort coke every night, ask to be forgiven on your death bed, and take the elevator straight up to Heaven, but since we ALL commit sin, it's quite unreasonable to require that someone be perfect, in order to make the claim that they are religious.

We all have a sinful vice. Some of us lie, some of us cheat, some of us steal, some of us murder, some of us do drugs, bang the neighbours wife, ignore those in need, hit our kids, rape, pillage and cause despair in our presence. Yet ALL of us can also make the decision to stop these actions, and persue a higher purpose. And some of us won't decide to stop those actions, and yet persue that higher purpose DESPITE our sin. Maybe your friend can't find the power within himself to stop snortin coke, but maybe, just MAYBE he'll be the catalyst that causes someone ELSE to repent and follow Christ's example. If such a case happens, I believe that he's done the Lord's work DESPITE his sin, and perhaps may be forgiven.

No one EARNS their way into heaven. Anyone who gets in is there by God's grace, and by his grace alone. Your good deeds mean nothing if they aren't devoted to God. If your motivation is the good feeling you get from helping others, then the act is a selfish act, if your motivation is to help others because God commands it, and you share that faith with those you help, then they know that it's not YOU who are helping them alone, but you, helping them, through your God, which can mean they begin to follow him, which is what we are to strive for. Spreading the word of God, that those who are not, might be saved.

Bottom line, coke heads CAN be religious. Same as liars, cheats, and adulterers. The question REALLY is, can someone who TRULY believes, be capable of ignoring the commands of God and living a life for themselves, when God commands that we live our life to serve Him, and serve others. Is the coke-head snortin lines every weekend really SERVING anybody? If I smoke a joint and go help out in a soup kitchen because God tells me to help those in need, am I not doing his work, despite my sin of smoking a joint? When it boils down to it, I'm just as confused as you are. I think the best we can do is choose our motivation, and have faith that the God we believe in and serve will remember the work we do for Him on this earth, despite the many, MANY times we will forget him and do selfish acts only to help ourselves.

In the end, if he doesn't exist, then oh well, whatever happens at death happens, and the adds are right, I shouldn't have worried about it. If he DOES exist, then I'd like to believe that I spent my time on this earth committed to His cause, because the Bible tells me that I'll be rewarded in heaven if I have. And heck, if the atheists are wrong, AND the Bible is wrong, if ANOTHER God is the one that exists, welps... damn, at least I took my best guess.

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