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-- Can soft synths ever sound as good as hardware? Post your opinion.
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you're hilarious kismet

echo, i'd vote for you if you wanna take over rudd when his term's up.

quote:

Originally posted by Kismet7 Well the only moron is you, I was talking about the Emulation of Analogue Sound by the VSTs

I wasn't - so why did you rebut a non-existent argument?

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Originally posted by Kismet7 Who cares if new VST's run better algorithm's than older Virtual Analogue synths?

You argued that the quality of music has degraded because VSTs sound worse than hardware. Modern VSTs are better than the hardware that was used for the overwhelming majority of edm classics. Hence, your argument got shut down.

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Originally posted by Kismet7 there has been a definate decrease in the quality of music and the amount of poorly made music out there due to the computer/internet and the rise of ITB production.

...and now you're trying to argue that music quality has degraded because of distribution and too many noobs (which is exactly what I said to rebut your original argument)? Shit man, choose a position and stick with it lol. You're making yourself look a bit silly mate...

quote:

Originally posted by Kismet7 The best sounds are made with a bit of distortion that comes naturally from analogue gear.

No.

Analog hardware is praised for things like oscillator drift, flutter in the filters, the character of the equipment at extreme settings or imposing the character of some certain device (eg. Tape). This is not the same as blatant loss in quality from being converted from digital, to analog, then back to digital again - this distortion is not one of the merits of hardware VAs lol...

You're really grasping at straws now, just let it go

quote:

Modern VSTs are better than the hardware that was used for the overwhelming majority of edm classics

That is debatable. i mean in theory, better algorithms probably exist in newer products but older synths & effects have a character to them for the most part. Many modern vsts sound very similar to one another, only they have different effects, modulation options and interface etc.

Compare for example an eventide h3000 (1980s) to any modern software vst effects. It has true character and sounds alot better to my ears than the "sonically perfect" vst effects.

Same goes for synths.

quote:

Originally posted by dannib That is debatable. i mean in theory, better algorithms probably exist in newer products but older synths & effects have a character to them for the most part.

Of course, but that isn't really what we are talking about. We're talking about the advancement of the technology - software is on par with modern VA hardware because they are effectively the same... That is my point. Some people will always like the "crap" quality of old VAs, but some people will also always like the "crap" quality of old VSTs too. Anything that can be done on a DSP chip can be done on a desktop CPU, and it is. One sounds no better than the other.

quote:

Originally posted by dannib Many modern vsts sound very similar to one another

Uh... it's the other way around man. Almost all hardware synths sound identical, because they are mostly just reiterating the same concepts: analog, virtual analog, sample-based, FM, wavetable.

VSTs are far more innovative, with things like Gladiators HCM, granular synthesis, hybrid synthesis like Omnisphere, etc.

What older VAs would you consider to have a crap quality then?

What synths do you own and what are you comparing?

Obviously things can be more innovative in newer vsts. It is far easier to edit and tweak parameters on screen when it comes to heavy FM, additive, granular etc synthesis. Hardware synths wouldn't be very intuitive and easy to program as you would probably have to dive through hundreds of menus etc.

I MYSELF think that MANY vsts sound too perfect, clean and tinny. I find myself having to use eq and effects often. On my older synths, especially analogue ones, they seem to fit right in the mix and i NEVER have to "phatten" them up as somebody else said.

That applies to both synths and effects. They have no character in my opinion. That is a personal opionion that may differ from yours. There is no point in arguing this.

Would you say the same goes for effects like in my example of the H3000?

I didn't mean literally they are crap lol... that's why I put quotations around it. I meant "crap" figuratively - in the sense that they are older and classified as somehow technically inferior. They have the sound of something old and outdated and some will love it, some will hate it. The point was, it does not matter if its on a DSP or CPU.

I'm basically agreeing with you on the topic of oldness + character, except that old non-analog hardware is no different from old vsts with a certain character.

quote:

Originally posted by Kismet7 Well the only moron is you, I was talking about the Emulation of Analogue Sound by the VSTs, they might be doing the same thing in theory "maths" but they arent running through the same veins, analogue board/circuits/chips/etc.

Emulations of analog synths sucks!
But dont forget that there are tons of romplers who offers exact same sound as analog by sampling.
I find myself using Trilogy more than my Moog for basslines.

And a Virus, can sound alot like analog synths, even better, and its physically possible for Access to make that a VST Instrument of it if they wanted to.

And then we have Omnisphere, which is without doubt the most feature packed synthesizer/rompler ever! The capabilities of this thing is nothing but amazing.

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Originally posted by echosystm The same applies to Raphie's arguments below: If you understand how a DSP processor works, you understand that they do nothing special, they just do it faster than a desktop CPU. That is not to say that this is better than a desktop CPU, because outboard gear HAS TO do it faster because of the enormous midi delay. The said operations are easily implemented at a higher level on a desktop CPU. People argue that VSTi algos are weak because the developers have less resources... LOL. Native Instruments vs. Nord? What a joke. Outboard does have different DA stages, that is true. VSTi's have no DA stages at all... Guess what? ALL DA DOES IS INTRODUCE DISTORTION. VST: all digital, no distortion. VA: digital, analog, then back to digital - two points of added distortion. Seriously this is the dumbest argument I've heard yet lol. However, VSTis vs. VAs, I can. If you don't have an understanding of microprocessors, assembly language and at least one higher level language, get out of this discussion because you have no idea what you are talking about. So... Any empirical facts to back up all of this puffery and ignorance? It's hilarious that this is all coming from someone who's only synth is a Xiosynth. LOL. My advice: never join a debating team. No jokes, I'm serious.

Ok, you're taking shortcuts here...... and you're trying to ridicule people which is another hobby of me, so be nice... please...

DA = Character, compare Lavry to Apogee, to Yamaha etc... different DA different results.... which means you can mix & match to deliver a "signature sound" a Pro53 sounds shitty on a SBLive, but gritty on a Steinberg MR816 if you know what i mean.

Remember the "quality mode" in Massive?!? see outboard DSP's with native coding as super super super quality mode... hence they sound denser with more detail less alliasing etc......

And if you can't hear the difference between a Nordlead 1 or 2 or a wannabee Nordlead VSTi like that crappy discovery... then i have no fucking clue why you are into producing in the first place....

Geezzzz apart from some exceptions most ITB crap sounds thin harsch, clipped summed and dither wrongly...... If that sound is in fashion then heehoo that's the way to go, but it still sounds like crap.

So please don't mistake taste or fashion with quality.

there are lot's of things that PC's can do, simulate planes, cars, synths...... you get the point: it comes close, but it's still no cigar.....

quote:

Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles It's not about what the producers are using. It's just as easy to make a shitty, boring, talentless track with hardware synths. The drop in quality has happened because the quality filters for a release are so much lower because labels don't have to press a track to vinyl to put it out anymore. Vinyl is an investment. A digital release really isn't. Labels know that and treat digital releases accordingly by lowering their standards. Or in many cases producers who get rejected by a bunch of labels simply start their own digital labels and release stuff that never would have seen the light of day ten years ago, which is why we have mountains and mountains of crap on the market today. This is never going to change now, so people need to quit complaining about it...

nail on head

quote:

Geezzzz apart from some exceptions most ITB crap sounds thin harsch, clipped summed and dither wrongly...... If that sound is in fashion then heehoo that's the way to go, but it still sounds like crap.

what an incredible generalisation, you must be trolling

that's why EXCEPTIONS was in bold.

Nothing wrong with VSTi's in their own right. but there are 2 big misconceptions:

1. VSTi's who emulate hardware come close.......
2. mixing ITB is easy.......

i have to laugh when people say I've used that MOOG in my bassline... What MOOG? that preset121 in Pro53....

Though I've can get some very nice unique sounds out of Vstation and NEXUS is perfect for bread and butter instant Trance. However the filter and ADSR from a Minimoog is TOTALLY different than the filter section on NEXUS, Artuaria or Pro53

It's not trolling, it's experience. and I really don't understand how people who've never played beyond a few VSTi's can give an educated opinion while never have touched a piece of hardware, don't believe the marketing hype, use your own ears and listen....

That would be the same as 14 year olds without a driverslicense debating that a Porsche drives better than a Ferrari or the other way around.... Experience first than conclude...

At the end of the day, whether you are using Magix Music Maker, Band in a Box, FLStudio, Cubase, Logic Ableton, and you are happy with your results then it's ok. THAT's what it's all about.

If your not happy than you may ask yourself do I suck? or can't my software bring me what I want.

If it's the first, don't even bother buying anything else
if it's the latter, go listen en buy what suits you.

Not because you HAVE to, but because you want to.

But as said before clever programming and proper mixing can bring you a long way with software alone.

It would be interesting to get ten tracks made with hardware alone, ten made with software alone, and put them in a random order and see if the "software sucks" folks could pick out the ones made with soft synths.

On avg. tracks I would pick them out instantly, not because they are better or worse, but because they sound different (if you would also track and compress outboard and ONLY do AD AFTER the stereosum.

In a mixture it would get a lot more hard and the difference would even get smaller when it's a high quality production.

This thread is just bullshit.

Its all in the skill of the producer!

Does hardware sound better than software in the very most cases? YES it does.

But that is totally irrelevant, the idea of the track, and how the sounds go together is what counts, in all cases.

quote:

Originally posted by Subtle This thread is just bullshit. Its all in the skill of the producer! Does hardware sound better than software in the very most cases? YES it does. But that is totally irrelevant, the idea of the track, and how the sounds go together is what counts, in all cases.

+1

This thread is now about Jesus.

quote:

Originally posted by Raphie But as said before clever programming and proper mixing can bring you a long way with software alone.

+1

quote:

Originally posted by Subtle This thread is just bullshit. Its all in the skill of the producer! Does hardware sound better than software in the very most cases? YES it does. But that is totally irrelevant, the idea of the track, and how the sounds go together is what counts, in all cases.

Correct, but quality of sources and quality of production are 2 different topics. you cannot polish a turd.... we're talking source quality here, not production quality......

quote:

Originally posted by Subtle This thread is just bullshit. Its all in the skill of the producer!

+1

quote:

Originally posted by Stef idk why i initially took this thread seriously.

quote:

Originally posted by Raphie Correct, but quality of sources and quality of production are 2 different topics. you cannot polish a turd.... we're talking source quality here, not production quality......

Yeah, but this is all software people vs. hardware people.
Everyone who uses software says that is equally good or better, and all who uses hardware says that is the best.
A biased discussion like this leads nowhere.

I use both hardware and software and i can get equally good results on both.

But still, my Phatty is pretty much useless for a Trance type of bassline, but when i use it for a track that has a single note bassline preferably with longer notes, it sounds just awesome.

I dont think anyone here claims that any emulation is just as good, the emulations (Moog, Pro, Discovery etc.) are a joke compared to the real product. But for the price difference its a great deal, and thats what music magazines and reviewers see.

And we shouldnt ignore the romplers that sample all these hardware synths in software.

The bottom line is that Software can sound equally good, it just requires more tweaking.

I love hardware synths, and i hope to get many many of them in the future, they sound good, they are inspirational, good looking and generally awesome fun to play with.

The big downside is that they dont have total recall so its more hassle to actually change the sound you are using.
And that makes romplers the big winners, although they are little fun to play with.

No, dude! The only way to go is full-blown analogue modular, for the reals. That's it!

I totally, totally can blow away any digital rig with 'virtual' whatever, dude.

I mean, totally, like, you know with a controlled voltage sequencer. Screw that computer skank, man.

Analogue tape saturation simulation? How about real analogue tape, dude? Try that on, for size. See if it fits.

I didn't think so, compu-dork!

/douchebag

quote:

Originally posted by Subtle This thread is just bullshit. Its all in the skill of the producer! Does hardware sound better than software in the very most cases? YES it does. But that is totally irrelevant, the idea of the track, and how the sounds go together is what counts, in all cases.

Your right, but were discussing what sounds better. The skill of a producer is a different topic, and its something the Software guys like to fall back on to avoid the Analogue is superior sounding fact. The end product between software and hardware use is really up to the skill of the producer, and both software and hardware have their nearly equal strengths and weaknesses there. Ill say it again, the best setup for the best possible music to be made is a hybrid of software and hardware.

Hybrid setup > Hardware only setup > Software only setup

quote:

Originally posted by Kismet7 the best setup for the best possible music to be made is a hybrid of software and hardware. Hybrid setup > Hardware only setup > Software only setup

Yeah, that is quite obvious.

If/when I can, I'm definitely going hybrid. I get a lot of mileage out of soft-synths. I can't see myself doing with out a Moog and an Alesis Andromeda, however. There is also something quite appealing about the concept of analogue channel strips on the front-end and a back-end analogue mastering stack feeding into a Korg MR-1000 that makes the required 20 or so thousand dollar expense, worthwhile.

Are you guys still trying to quantify opinions?

Hardware synths sound better because that is your opinion, the specific sound they make is "better" than those of software synths.

The concept of which sounds better cannot be quantified. Also the amount of people who vote for one or the other doesn't change how it sounds for each individual person.

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