Originally posted by PETRAN
I can't understand whats all the fuss about.
The notion that black people have all got "the tribal beat" playing in their heads and the notion that black culture is actually an inherent, potentially unconscious expression of pre-written culture.
If you read post-colonial theory, there is a very strong and persuasive argument that almost all racism towards black people stems ultimately from a Victorian colonial neurosis towards the black "savage". The Victorians were quite a repressed, religious society and they made a fetish out of civility and educating the savage. It was basically the pretext for all colonial crimes in the 19th Century.
The basic neurosis was that the "black savage" represented everything that Victorian society repressed - sexuality, violence and instinctive animal desires. Hence why even today, black people are hyper-sexualised (the myth that black men have the largest penises), associated with physical activity rather than intellectual thought and ludicrously assumed to be more "in touch" with the tribal groove of mankind, which the repressed white man has lost contact with.
These connections are mostly subtle and implicit in modern society. Most people don't even recognise them. This is a different kind of racism to overt bigotry, but it's arguably a more insidious strain of discrimination.
It's one of the main reasons I fucking hate this black-white metanarrative that predominantly white, middle class musical scholars like to perpetuate: the notion that black music is funky, soulful, loose and that white music is rigid, intellectual and melodic. You'd think techno would be the great destruction of the whole issue, but apparently people can re-convince themselves even in the face of a music as rigid and self-consciously intellectual as it gets. Reducing music to an allegory of the colonial narrative is something that needs to fucking stop. I've no problem with calling techno "black music", although apart from black pride I don't see why the issue would ever be raised, but to associate "black music" with all things African, tribal and pre-alphabet is plain fucked up.
Posted by PETRAN on Nov-20-2009 16:52:
quote:
Originally posted by SYSTEM-J
The notion that black people have all got "the tribal beat" playing in their heads and the notion that black culture is actually an inherent, potentially unconscious expression of pre-written culture.
If you read post-colonial theory, there is a very strong and persuasive argument that almost all racism towards black people stems ultimately from a Victorian colonial neurosis towards the black "savage". The Victorians were quite a repressed, religious society and they made a fetish out of civility and educating the savage. It was basically the pretext for all colonial crimes in the 19th Century.
The basic neurosis was that the "black savage" represented everything that Victorian society repressed - sexuality, violence and instinctive animal desires. Hence why even today, black people are hyper-sexualised (the myth that black men have the largest penises), associated with physical activity rather than intellectual thought and ludicrously assumed to be more "in touch" with the tribal groove of mankind, which the repressed white man has lost contact with.
These connections are mostly subtle and implicit in modern society. Most people don't even recognise them. This is a different kind of racism to overt bigotry, but it's arguably a more insidious strain of discrimination.
It's one of the main reasons I fucking hate this black-white metanarrative that predominantly white, middle class musical scholars like to perpetuate: the notion that black music is funky, soulful, loose and that white music is rigid, intellectual and melodic. You'd think techno would be the great destruction of the whole issue, but apparently people can re-convince themselves even in the face of a music as rigid and self-consciously intellectual as it gets. Reducing music to an allegory of the colonial narrative is something that needs to fucking stop. I've no problem with calling techno "black music", although apart from black pride I don't see why the issue would ever be raised, but to associate "black music" with all things African, tribal and pre-alphabet is plain fucked up.
Hmm i see what you are talking about-nice post.
Don't get me wrong, but i thing that those stereotypes ("black-music"-yeah even those words look ugly- revolves around rhythm and tempo, whilst "white-music" revolves around melody/pitch etc.) are partly correct. They are still stereotypes though which are not true in the literal sense. In a matter of fact there are many "inter-influences" between the two "musical states of mind" leading to the creation of many musical styles and genres which don't obey to either one or the other.
Other than that, that "lets-return-to-the-roots-go-back-to-nature-find-the-source-new-age-kindof-crackpot-mentality" is completely nonsense and i thing that it bears little resemblance to those musical genres. Musical style, like every piece that conveys information about the world, is a collection of memes-cultural bits of information. "Good memes" pass-on whereas unsuccesful ones die. There is a continuous dynamic and blending on the process. The "rhythmical" elements of "black-music" has influenced "white-music" leading to something successful (e.g. the creation of rock n roll)and similarly white-music has influenced black music (the creation of jazz and even those strings in disco and funk).
There are continuous interactions between succesfull ideas leading to more and more musical outcomes, genres and hence tastes. Now i can't see any deeper meaning/truth in that other than the aesthetic result in the mind's eye. Some people like that, others not. I don't think that those youngsters from detroit have connected their minds and bodies to some "archetypical deeper african truth" and expressed it through their music. I just think that Derrick May happened to like (as he said in an interview once i've red in DJMag)both funkadelic (a funk band from the 60s) and kraftwerk. So, if you "strip-down" the elements of a funk track and play it faster you'll (anyway) going to get something very stereotypically "african-sounding". Add the futuristic lines and robotic sounds of Kraftwerk and you get techno. IMO thats all there is.
Now ofcourse that basic and raw rhythmical sound as it is expressed through machinery is going to evoke some very basic responses in the human brain, something that is likely going to be associated
(partly because it is hard-wired in the brain, but also because the western culture teaches these things e.g. drum beat=primitive music) with the idea of the primitive.
Posted by nefardec on Nov-20-2009 23:14:
quote:
Originally posted by SYSTEM-J
The notion that black people have all got "the tribal beat" playing in their heads and the notion that black culture is actually an inherent, potentially unconscious expression of pre-written culture.
...
It's one of the main reasons I fucking hate this black-white metanarrative that predominantly white, middle class musical scholars like to perpetuate: the notion that black music is funky, soulful, loose and that white music is rigid, intellectual and melodic. You'd think techno would be the great destruction of the whole issue, but apparently people can re-convince themselves even in the face of a music as rigid and self-consciously intellectual as it gets. Reducing music to an allegory of the colonial narrative is something that needs to fucking stop. I've no problem with calling techno "black music", although apart from black pride I don't see why the issue would ever be raised, but to associate "black music" with all things African, tribal and pre-alphabet is plain fucked up.
That is a gross oversimplification of what I said, and highly misrepresentative.
I did not say that black music is associated with all things african, I said that a lot of black musicians, even black techno musicians have preoccupations with and interests in their african heritage, either directly, or indirectly through other music that they were inspired by, and it comes across in their own music.
I did not say anything about 'tribal', wtf?
I did not say anything about pre-alphabet, I said that it is a culture in which the alphabet or written word is not as dominant as image-based modes of thought.
LEARN 2 READ
Also, you seem to have little idea about current scholarship in race and music.
quote:
It's one of the main reasons I fucking hate this black-white metanarrative that predominantly white, middle class musical scholars like to perpetuate: the notion that black music is funky, soulful, loose and that white music is rigid, intellectual and melodic.
wtf?
here are some books for you to read that I have found enlightening. Written by black scholars.
Why is it that you are so against the idea that African culture influences a lot of black music, including techno?
Posted by PETRAN on Nov-20-2009 23:38:
quote:
Originally posted by nefardec
That is a gross oversimplification of what I said, and highly misrepresentative.
I did not say that black music is associated with all things african, I said that a lot of black musicians, even black techno musicians have preoccupations with and interests in their african heritage, either directly, or indirectly through other music that they were inspired by, and it comes across in their own music.
I did not say anything about 'tribal', wtf?
I did not say anything about pre-alphabet, I said that it is a culture in which the alphabet or written word is not as dominant as image-based modes of thought.
LEARN 2 READ
Also, you seem to have little idea about current scholarship in race and music.
wtf?
here are some books for you to read that I have found enlightening. Written by black scholars.
Why is it that you are so against the idea that African culture influences a lot of black music, including techno?
Nef, i agree on influence. Yes ofcourse there is such an influence on techno music. But an "influence" is different than "reproduction" of something about transmitting a cultural originality or "trueness"-or anything like that. An african influence doesn't make it african or culturally-related (if that was what you were saying, i admit that i haven't red your original posts). Here is an interesting quote from wiki i find interesting but i guess that you may know it.
From its early development until the present, jazz has incorporated music from 19th and 20th century American popular music.[1] Its West African pedigree is evident in its use of blue notes, improvisation, polyrhythms, syncopation, and the swung note[2] but one of jazz's iconic figures Art Blakey has been quoted as saying, "No America, no jazz. I�ve seen people try to connect it to other countries, for instance to Africa, but it doesn�t have a damn thing to do with Africa".[3]
I would personally say a similar thing about techno (and more specifically Detroit)
Posted by Schadenfreude on Nov-21-2009 00:10:
the first record that derrick may ever bought was a Who album.
*raises fist*
Posted by Lews on Nov-21-2009 00:16:
As someone from Africa I just want to say that I don't have any preoccupations with my heritage. I don't think many black people who have lived in America all their lives are thinking about that. They may be thinking about racism, bigotry, and the difficulties of being black or poor or whatever, but I don't think it has shit to do with Africa. There is a large difference between things African and black.
Posted by RebeL9 on Nov-21-2009 00:54:
quote:
Originally posted by Lews
As someone from Africa I just want to say that I don't have any preoccupations with my heritage. I don't think many black people who have lived in America all their lives are thinking about that. They may be thinking about racism, bigotry, and the difficulties of being black or poor or whatever, but I don't think it has shit to do with Africa. There is a large difference between things African and black.
I agree. I have never thought of the black people in USA as "africans" in any kind of sense. That's why I also think that the name "afro american" is misleading. The only thing they have in common with the African continent is the skin color. Apart from that they are totally diferent.
Even the white and the indian who live in Africa are more "african" than the black in USA.
Posted by Schadenfreude on Nov-21-2009 00:59:
quote:
Originally posted by Lews
As someone from Africa I just want to say that I don't have any preoccupations with my heritage. I don't think many black people who have lived in America all their lives are thinking about that. They may be thinking about racism, bigotry, and the difficulties of being black or poor or whatever, but I don't think it has shit to do with Africa. There is a large difference between things African and black.
prog lovin nigga Posted by Schadenfreude on Nov-21-2009 02:17:
that wasn't racist i'm half black to
Posted by Seppuku on Nov-21-2009 02:57:
Its about time people took techno more seriously.
Posted by PETRAN on Nov-21-2009 09:43:
quote:
Originally posted by Seppuku
Its about time people took techno more seriously.
Posted by Frenkieee on Nov-21-2009 13:42:
lol @ youtube caption
Posted by SYSTEM-J on Nov-21-2009 15:06:
quote:
Originally posted by nefardec
Why is it that you are so against the idea that African culture influences a lot of black music, including techno?
Gross simplification and misrepresentation of who now?
I'm not against that idea. Never claimed otherwise. I'm against what you very specifically said - that techno as a genre is the channelling of a completely different culture to the one it's actually made and consumed in. As I've repeatedly pointed out, you either have clear evidence of the artists consciously doing this right from the start or you must logically be claiming it's an issue of genetics.
Now I don't know if it's subconscious racism or just a complete failure of logic on your part, because you've only got a few indirect inferences and isolated examples to prove the former and yet you deny the latter.
As I've repeatedly pointed out and you've selectively ignored, proving techno is "black music" doesn't mean anything because lots of black music is horizontally composed and word based (and spoken word is no less sequential than written word, a fact you seem to be oblivious to), and even proving an artist (like Bambaataa) is concerned with African culture still doesn't prove his music is vertically composed in a non-sequential sound-image.
So basically, I'm completely against your individual argument, because it's so riddled with holes, leaps of faith and convenient assumptions it looks like racism.
Posted by nefardec on Nov-21-2009 16:31:
quote:
Originally posted by PETRAN
I just think that Derrick May happened to like (as he said in an interview once i've red in DJMag)both funkadelic (a funk band from the 60s) and kraftwerk. So, if you "strip-down" the elements of a funk track and play it faster you'll (anyway) going to get something very stereotypically "african-sounding". Add the futuristic lines and robotic sounds of Kraftwerk and you get techno. IMO thats all there is.
I think you're correct about Techno producers' influences. They aren't generally explicit about Africa or heritage, the way other artists (like dub producers) were.
But as I've said, this is about a pedigree of influence. You are what you eat, basically. Techno is music descended from africans and aliens.
It's entirely possible to be a white person and make black music. Black music is a cultural distinction, not genetic, as I've said many times in this thread.
quote:
Originally posted by SYSTEM-J
So basically, I'm completely against your individual argument, because it's so riddled with holes, leaps of faith and convenient assumptions it looks like racism.
The thing is, the 'individual argument' you are arguing against never existed.
this is what you think my argument is:
quote:
Originally posted by YOU
that techno as a genre is the channelling of a completely different culture to the one it's actually made and consumed in.
and this is what it was:
quote:
Originally posted by ME
I think this dialogue between image and word manifests itself in electronic music as the difference between pure techno and this generic tech house. techno is image based, sculptural, rhythmic, black music, imbued with deep cultural traditions of an image-based culture, whereas the prog is sequential, of european descent, a word-based culture, from same essential tradition as the choral hymn.
as you can see, I made no argument that it was consciously "channeling" african culture (even though some artists do this, i realize this does not support an argument). The argument is that it is imbued, latent, permeated, by the stepwise spread of tradition.
You already agreed that techno was black music, and I am sure you would agree that it is more like a sound-sculpture or image than song-based music, and I'm sure you agree it is rhythmic.
Now, the question is whether or not you agree that it is 'imbued with deep cultural traditions of an image based culture'.
This is the 'pedigree of influence' that I discussed. It is about tradition, not genetic predisposition, nor is it about motive.
LEARN 2 READ
here is an interesting quote from the introduction of the last book I posted, "Flash of the Spirit".
quote:
Since the Atlantic slave trade, ancient African organizing principles of song and dance have crossed the seas from the Old World to the New. There they took on new momentum, intermingling with each other and with the New World or European styles of singing and dance. Among those principles are the dominance of a percussive performance style (attack and vital aliveness in sound and motion); a propensity for multiple meter (competing meters sounding all at once); overlapping call and response in singing (solo/chorus, voice/instrument - "interlock systeems" of performance);inner pulse control (a "metronome sense", keeping a beat indelibly in mind as a rhythmic common denominator in a welter of different meters); suspended accentuation patterning (offbeat phrasing of melodic and choreographic accents); and at a slightly different but equally recurring level of exposition, songs and dances of social allusion (music which, however danceable and 'swinging', remorselessly contrasts social imperfections against implied criteria for perfect living).
Flash of the Spirit is about visual and philosophic streams of creativity and imagination, running parallel to the massive musicial and choreographic modalities that connect black persons of the western hemisphere, as well as the millions of European and Asian people attracted to and performing their styles, to Mother Africa.
as you can imagine, since this is literally beginning in the third sentence of the book, there are many other choice quotes in the book supporting my argument, but I will spare all of you with tediously posting them. If you want to read more, get the book, like I have.
Posted by SYSTEM-J on Nov-21-2009 17:24:
quote:
Originally posted by nefardec
as you can see, I made no argument that it was consciously "channeling" african culture (even though some artists do this, i realize this does not support an argument). The argument is that it is imbued, latent, permeated, by the stepwise spread of tradition.
You've made that argument several times, just not in that quote. Otherwise you wouldn't have even tried to post all those quotes, concept records or Sun Ra albums to try and show conscious invokement. You took on an argument that you couldn't prove, showing only leaps of faith (the Belleville trio's parents probably listened to Sun Ra, which probably influenced them, for example).
quote:
You already agreed that techno was black music, and I am sure you would agree that it is more like a sound-sculpture or image than song-based music, and I'm sure you agree it is rhythmic.
Now, the question is whether or not you agree that it is 'imbued with deep cultural traditions of an image based culture'.
A question that in itself raises many other questions about your logical lapses. Stop trying to cut out the troublesome parts of your argument. One of the many questions raised concerns your assumption that "black music" is about vertical composition and sound-images, an assumption myself and JBJ have provided many, many examples to counter, all of which you've ignored. Appealing to the authority of books does not counter these examples, especially if the books make the same mistakes you keep making.
I think one of the biggest ironies here is you assume progressive is white, sequential music full of the traditions of Western culture, when it was born because Leftfield very deliberately and openly tried to bring black musical influences into their music. And then on the flip-side, techno would not exist without the massive influence of white Germans. This is the music of the postmodern age. Black musical tradition was disseminated into the cultural mixing bowl for almost a century before either of these genres came along. "Black music" and "white music" are just labels. We know that music is music.
Posted by PETRAN on Nov-21-2009 18:02:
quote:
Originally posted by nefardec
I think you're correct about Techno producers' influences. They aren't generally explicit about Africa or heritage, the way other artists (like dub producers) were.
But as I've said, this is about a pedigree of influence. You are what you eat, basically. Techno is music descended from africans and aliens.
It's entirely possible to be a white person and make black music. Black music is a cultural distinction, not genetic, as I've said many times in this thread.
The thing is, the 'individual argument' you are arguing against never existed.
this is what you think my argument is:
and this is what it was:
I think this dialogue between image and word manifests itself in electronic music as the difference between pure techno and this generic tech house. techno is image based, sculptural, rhythmic, black music, imbued with deep cultural traditions of an image-based culture, whereas the prog is sequential, of european descent, a word-based culture, from same essential tradition as the choral hymn.
as you can see, I made no argument that it was consciously "channeling" african culture (even though some artists do this, i realize this does not support an argument). The argument is that it is imbued, latent, permeated, by the stepwise spread of tradition.
You already agreed that techno was black music, and I am sure you would agree that it is more like a sound-sculpture or image than song-based music, and I'm sure you agree it is rhythmic.
Now, the question is whether or not you agree that it is 'imbued with deep cultural traditions of an image based culture'.
This is the 'pedigree of influence' that I discussed. It is about tradition, not genetic predisposition, nor is it about motive.
LEARN 2 READ
here is an interesting quote from the introduction of the last book I posted, "Flash of the Spirit".
Nef, i haven't red the book, but i think what you are saying about he distinction between "word-based" and "image-based" and between "vertical" and "horizontal" is an oversimplification and probably just wrong. So, is this tune by Derrick May-a typical tune of the era- "vertical" and "image-based" or whatever?
What i hear is someone looped a kind-of-funk-rhythm with some electronic acid sounds and somewhere in the middle also added some "terminator-style-sci-fi-strings" lol. I can't see whats so African or traditional about it. Yes there is a black influence-since the funk/disco/soul/jazz influences of those musicians were also African influenced, but they are no more African than they are American. They are probably more American since those "black genres" (like funk, soul, jazz, disco etc.) were already the result of a mixture between the more polyrhythmic African spirit and the more "melody/choir based" White. Soul and Funk were developments of Gospel music, which in turn is largerly choir-based and influenced by "White church" music. Even the "deep blues" which-as far as i know- were also some of the first developments of Black music in America are not majorly related to African musical traditions, no more than they are to white folk music.
So, i don't think that what you are saying about those distinctions is realistic and true, since "black music"-as soon as it was created in America-was a mixture of those two "schools of thought", not the natural linear development of African traditional music. Maybe you hear some later (and not earlier) more loopy, dubby and tribal techno developments (like the Robert Hood track you posted) and because they sound very primitive and basic, you perceive it as something more primitive and savage and hence you associate it with the supposedly more "primitive" and "basic" music of Africa. Which i also think is a stereotype, since, whilst i know little about African traditions, music and culture, im not sure that African music is not song-based but purely revolves around some "imaginary" "vertical" concept.
I think that the association of African musical traditons with ritualistic tribal savage music is a stereotype, possibly created from the white communities which saw the "savage" in those people rather than the elements which were related to them (since they didn't want to be related in any way to them). So, yes, i think that a mixture of biased white (pseudo-)anthropology and the Hollywood led to those stereotypes lol. I guess that there are stuff sounding like what we perceive as "tribal" (and what you say "vertical") but to sum all African culture within those over-simplistic notions is wrong and i believe that there are also more "song-based", "linear", "choir-based" musical aspects in African traditions as well (e.g. listen to some Kenyan music in youtube-although it is east- and not west-african, from the little stuff i know i think that it shares a lot with other African traditions). So in the end, i'm not sure if African tradtional music is more rhythm-based or vertical or whatever than Middle-east, or Japanese, or Greek, or even North-European folk-dance music (which has led to the developments of polka, "river-dance" etc. ). It is surely more "rhythm-based" than later European music (e.g. romantic classical but maybe not so vastly different from some Baroque) which became more-melody based, but i believe that this school of thought also influenced (possibly indirectly) American black music right from the very beginning.
Posted by nefardec on Nov-21-2009 22:19:
quote:
Originally posted by PETRAN
So in the end, i'm not sure if African tradtional music is more rhythm-based or vertical or whatever than Middle-east, or Japanese, or Greek, or even North-European folk-dance music (which has led to the developments of polka, "river-dance" etc. ). It is surely more "rhythm-based" than later European music (e.g. romantic classical but maybe not so vastly different from some Baroque) which became more-melody based, but i believe that this school of thought also influenced (possibly indirectly) American black music right from the very beginning.
classical indian ragas also tend towards vertical compositions.
You are right that the vertical/horizontal thing is a generalization. But it's not a generalization like a stereotype that acts an exclusive 'pigeonhole', it is a tendency or dominance or relative position on a continuum.
quote:
Originally posted by SYSTEM-J A question that in itself raises many other questions about your logical lapses. Stop trying to cut out the troublesome parts of your argument.
what the fuck? Of course I will cut out the weak part of my argument, in order to strengthen my message. You'd think a writer would understand the concept of editing.
Furthermore, I could care less about your fetish with logic, I care about ideas, and you're just going to have to live with it. If you can't, then don't waste your time responding to me. Or maybe it's that you are so self-important that you see yourself as some sort of force of logical righteousness who must intervene in the forum.
quote:
"Black music" and "white music" are just labels. We know that music is music.
As I've said, black music and white music refer to cultural traditions. You don't have to have black skin color to understand or make or aprpeciate 'black music' or 'white music', as long as you are sufficiently indoctrinated with the culture.
quote:
So, is this tune by Derrick May-a typical tune of the era- "vertical" and "image-based" or whatever?
PETRAN, no need to be so snarky. We all know that the musical family tree of the world is full of incest. You are also misunderstanding what I say when I make a distinction between the vertical and the horizontal. They are not mutually exclusive, and I think it would be nearly impossible to find music that is only vertical or only horizontal. Most music has to be somewhat horizontal because it is always subject to a time dimension, unless you have just a simple loop or something.
It's like being left or right brain dominant.
To humor you, I would say there is a mix of both horizontal and vertical compositional techniques in the Derrick May tune you posted. I think it remains largely vertical though, because there are no clear narrative/verse structures - swelling or change is created through the gradual layering of vertical structures. But I would never classify any song as either vertical or horizontal. That is just wrong, I agree. Nor would I ever classify a culture as either image based or alphabet based.
I think, though that you can more or less plot the relative dominance of these modalities in music or culture in a moment of time.
quote:
Maybe you hear some later (and not earlier) more loopy, dubby and tribal techno developments (like the Robert Hood track you posted) and because they sound very primitive and basic, you perceive it as something more primitive and savage and hence you associate it with the supposedly more "primitive" and "basic" music of Africa. Which i also think is a stereotype, since, whilst i know little about African traditions, music and culture, im not sure that African music is not song-based but purely revolves around some "imaginary" "vertical" concept.
for the last time - i don't think that music or culture is exclusively image based or linear/narrative based. I think that one modality dominates within a given frame of reference. Of course African music has songs!
Please, if you are going to argue with me, please argue with me and my words, and not what you imagine my words or positions to be.
also, did you listen to rob hood's wife's words in this production of his?
Posted by chesco on Nov-21-2009 23:17:
quote:
Originally posted by Seppuku
Its about time people took techno more seriously.
Totally.
Posted by SYSTEM-J on Nov-22-2009 00:21:
quote:
Originally posted by nefardec
what the fuck? Of course I will cut out the weak part of my argument, in order to strengthen my message. You'd think a writer would understand the concept of editing.
Although that's a false analogy because this is a continuous debate, which works very differently to an essay, editing is about clarity, efficiency and aesthetics, not glossing over problems. When I'm stating a case, whether it's a review or an essay or whatever, I don't simply ignore the problematic points of an argument and edit them out. I raise them, acknowledge them, counter them and dismiss them as an integrated part of my position. If you're having to edit out the problems to make your case stand, your case is obviously flawed.
quote:
Furthermore, I could care less about your fetish with logic, I care about ideas, and you're just going to have to live with it. If you can't, then don't waste your time responding to me. Or maybe it's that you are so self-important that you see yourself as some sort of force of logical righteousness who must intervene in the forum.
You can read all the weighty ideas in the world, but it is basic logical principles that govern your understanding and handling of that information. I value someone who has rock solid logic and can process any given information accurately over someone who is incredibly well read but lacks the faculties to utilise their gained knowledge.
And I haven't intervened in this thread. I was already a participant in this thread, and I have personally raised the idea of vertical/horizontal composition in the past on TA (although I didn't read about it in a book, it was something that occurred to me) so I was interested to see where you were going with your point. It was the rapid nosedive into a point that was at best ill-thought-out and at worst implicitely racist that prompted me to "intervene" in your pontification.
quote:
Originally posted by nefardec
As I've said, black music and white music refer to cultural traditions. You don't have to have black skin color to understand or make or aprpeciate 'black music' or 'white music', as long as you are sufficiently indoctrinated with the culture.
And as I've said, those traditions have been so thoroughly cross-bred, interwoven and mixed up that there is no white music that isn't heavily influenced by black music and no black music that isn't heavily influenced by white music.
Culture is culture. It is the product of societies, not skin colours. Word-based, sequential culture is not "white" culture, because white people were not the only ones to have an emphasis on written language or sequential thinking. The Belleville trio did not make black culture, only American culture or Western culture. Whilever you associate skin colour or race with distinct, seperable ways of thinking you are discriminating.
Posted by nefardec on Nov-22-2009 02:36:
quote:
Originally posted by SYSTEM-J
Although that's a false analogy because this is a continuous debate, which works very differently to an essay, editing is about clarity, efficiency and aesthetics, not glossing over problems. When I'm stating a case, whether it's a review or an essay or whatever, I don't simply ignore the problematic points of an argument and edit them out. I raise them, acknowledge them, counter them and dismiss them as an integrated part of my position. If you're having to edit out the problems to make your case stand, your case is obviously flawed.
Except that this is a message board and not an academic journal.. If I were writing an essay on this issue for such a publication, there's no fucking way I would just spew out whatever is on my mind. That's the function of a public message board. You're way out of place here if you think otherwise.
quote:
Originally posted by SYSTEM-J
You can read all the weighty ideas in the world, but it is basic logical principles that govern your understanding and handling of that information. I value someone who has rock solid logic and can process any given information accurately over someone who is incredibly well read but lacks the faculties to utilise their gained knowledge.
Well fortunately for you, I already have a girlfriend, as it turns out, anyways.
quote:
Originally posted by SYSTEM-J
And I haven't intervened in this thread. I was already a participant in this thread, and I have personally raised the idea of vertical/horizontal composition in the past on TA (although I didn't read about it in a book, it was something that occurred to me) so I was interested to see where you were going with your point. It was the rapid nosedive into a point that was at best ill-thought-out and at worst implicitely racist that prompted me to "intervene" in your pontification.
Oh ok, it's good to know we have such a stalwart force of anti-racism looking over us in the forum. I guess the 'J' stands for "JUSTICE"?
And I did not read about 'vertical' and 'horizontal' in a book, this was my idea as well. What I took from a book was the 'image' versus 'alphabet' idea.
quote:
Originally posted by SYSTEM-J
And as I've said, those traditions have been so thoroughly cross-bred, interwoven and mixed up that there is no white music that isn't heavily influenced by black music and no black music that isn't heavily influenced by white music.
You're not saying anything here I haven't said.
quote:
Originally posted by SYSTEM-J
Culture is culture. It is the product of societies, not skin colours. Word-based, sequential culture is not "white" culture, because white people were not the only ones to have an emphasis on written language or sequential thinking.
WTF does "culture is culture" mean?
Cultures are not all the same, and no one said it is the product of skin colors. I have repeatedly stated the opposite of that.
You again are resorting to gross misinterpretations of what I have written.
First of all, there is no "white culture". "Black culture" exists because of the tragic shared cultural memory of slavery and the african diaspora. "Black" is just a label attached to the tradition surrounding this, and it certainly wasn't invented by me.
Second of all, of course written language or sequential thinking appears in pretty much every culture since about 10,000 years ago. I have not stated anything to the contrary. LEARN 2 READ
quote:
Originally posted by SYSTEM-J
The Belleville trio did not make black culture, only American culture or Western culture.
Great point, SYSTEM-OBVIOUS!
quote:
Originally posted by SYSTEM-J
Whilever you associate skin colour or race with distinct, seperable ways of thinking you are discriminating.
...except that i did not do that. 1.) i did not say that those ways were mutually exclusive. 2.) i said it is a cultural tendency, not a genetic or racial tendency.
LEARN 2 READ
Leave it to the writer to make up words like 'whilever'. That doesn't even exist in Britain.
Also, it's "separable". LEARN 2 SPELL
Posted by PETRAN on Nov-22-2009 11:38:
Nef, i completely understand about the "vertical" and the "horizontal" as being on the extreme ends of a continuum, i just don't agree on the thing that Techno originated as a re-statement of original black African traditional music which in turn strictly tends towards the "vertical" end of the continuum. You keep posting Robert Hood, but i don't think that Robert Hood represents your typical early-original Detroit Techno, since he appeared later-on and made a more minimalistic loopy tribal-techno sound which is not what the early Deatroit musicians did. Ofcourse now a few words on top of a loopy tribal techno tune about blacks doesn't prove anything, no more than a few sexual words on top of a tribal house tune (there are many and i consider them stupid lol)proving some deeper relation to some traditional sexual ritual.
If im going to use that rhythm-melody continuum, i would say that original early Detroit Techno is placed exactly in the middle of that vertical-horizontal spectrum. You ger a lot of repetition throough the loops but you also get a lot of sounds coming and leaving, pianos and sci-fi synth lines playing spacey melodies (telling futuristic stories?) and even vocodered vocals (e.g. Model 500/Cybortron) singing/talking about dystopian subjects and alien concepts. You even get those 80s build-up drums which are typical of the era. I just can't see that closer relation to African traditional music, at least no more closer than 60s Funk music or 30s/40s Be-Bop Jazz. Because it is a music whose development strictly reflects its' influeces, as well as, the place and time it was produced (Funk influences, hip-hop, disco and house influences and electro, industrial and EBM influences possibly influential on that black kids from Detroit).
Plus i wouldn't identify the "vertical" end of the spectrum with black music right? White music with its' heterogeneous populations and cultures can also demonstrate pure examples found on the extreme "vertical" end (e.g. tha vearious "Dances" of european countries).
And i also think that right-left brain distinction is also false, ironically enough i read an exciting book about music perception from music psychologist/cognitive scientist Daniel Levitin called "This is your brain on music" and his main thesis is that all kinds of music affect the whole brain and that the right/left brain distinction is a myth. What he found is that rhythm and tempo all affect sub-cortical structures such as the cerebellum and basal ganglia (those primitive structures are generally used in timing and motor processing so it makes sense to process rhythm, tempo and meter)and that pitch and timbre affect almost all of the cortical lobes. Now what you say about "image-based" and "word-based" is also an over-simplification, since according to Levitin, music with emphasis on timbre, chromatics and abstract chords like impressionistic classical (e.g. Debussy) largely affects the right brain, more so than most other genres (although all music ofcourse affects the right brain), because this music (together with ambient etc.) evokes strongs images and spatial representations (e.g. the sea, the wind, the mountains etc.) which are largely processed in the right-cortex, especially the "visual" areas on the back. And there is no rhythm in site! But all music affects the whole brain. Hey and i'm not snarky ok, i just state my opinion, i have all the good mood for nice conversation you are probably pissed-of by System-J but you know, thats his style heh.
Posted by SYSTEM-J on Nov-22-2009 13:31:
quote:
Originally posted by nefardec
Except that this is a message board and not an academic journal.. If I were writing an essay on this issue for such a publication, there's no fucking way I would just spew out whatever is on my mind. That's the function of a public message board. You're way out of place here if you think otherwise.
It's still a debate, and whether it's face to face or on a message board, you don't simply ignore the parts of the argument you don't have an answer to and expect the other party to acquiesce. Although it's funny you would make analogies to professional writers editing their work if this is just a message board.
quote:
First of all, there is no "white culture". "Black culture" exists because of the tragic shared cultural memory of slavery and the african diaspora. "Black" is just a label attached to the tradition surrounding this, and it certainly wasn't invented by me.
Sounds like "black history" to me. I agree with Morgan Freeman on the notion of that.
quote:
Second of all, of course written language or sequential thinking appears in pretty much every culture since about 10,000 years ago. I have not stated anything to the contrary. LEARN 2 READ
I didn't say "appears". I said emphasis on. You know how you're saying European culture has an emphasis on sequential words and "black culture" has an emphasis on holistic image?
Learn 2 Read? You first.
quote:
...except that i did not do that. 1.) i did not say that those ways were mutually exclusive. 2.) i said it is a cultural tendency, not a genetic or racial tendency.
You created a fucking dichotomy between white, European culture and black African culture, assigning very different values to each. And ever since then, you've steadily back-tracked and back-tracked away from that nice clear division until we're reaching the stage where your original point was so generalised "because this is a message board" it's lost almost all meaning.
quote:
Leave it to the writer to make up words like 'whilever'. That doesn't even exist in Britain.
Also, it's "separable". LEARN 2 SPELL
Given the drugs I'd taken and the pitiful amount of sleep I'd had yesterday, I'd say I did alright to limit it to two typos. Although you know you're supposed to capitalise the first letter of every sentence? And it's "couldn't care less". And since when was it spelled "aprpeciate"?
Posted by PETRAN on Nov-22-2009 16:19:
quote:
Originally posted by SYSTEM-J
Given the drugs I'd taken and the pitiful amount of sleep I'd had yesterday, I'd say I did alright to limit it to two typos. Although you know you're supposed to capitalise the first letter of every sentence? And it's "couldn't care less". And since when was it spelled "aprpeciate"?
Were there any hot and easy drunk british girls involved? Or just drugs and drinking? If it was just drugs and drinking your typos have no excuse and the whole thing is considered a fail. Just reminding.
Posted by SYSTEM-J on Nov-22-2009 16:25:
quote:
Originally posted by PETRAN
Were there any hot and easy drunk british girls involved? Or just drugs and drinking? If it was just drugs and drinking your typos have no excuse and the whole thing is considered a fail. Just reminding.
There were hot and drunk girls of various nationalities involved.
Posted by PETRAN on Nov-22-2009 16:33:
quote:
Originally posted by SYSTEM-J
There were hot and drunk girls of various nationalities involved.
