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let me just clarify this one thing...again... popularity doesn't make something bad any more than it makes it good. i never said anything that is popular is bad. in fact i have still yet to make a characterization using the word bad. i'm saying popularity doesn't make something good--or better than something that isn't. that is the argument i hear from a lot of dense people who try to talk about the merits of commercial music. it's good because dj mag, it's good because he sells out arenas, it's good because it makes money. nothing that is good and popular is good because it is popular. get it? film is different from music because there are very high barriers to entry in the film industry. in most cases you have to have a commercial interest backing your work in order to realize your grand vision, especially if you're trying to tell a story on a large scale. the same barriers to entry do not exist for making or playing quality music.

We get that, and I disagree with you. The fact that guetta makes music that lots of people like means that he makes good music, at least for the masses who are all approaching EDM from a particular context. Just because you've been around EDM longer doesn't inherently make your music superior to theirs, it's just better for people who have heard enough of that cheesy nonsense and actually want to hear something else, which will most likely be considered cheesy and boring in a few years anyway.

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Originally posted by Sadface Does that mean the appreciation I have for my car can just be discounted because I'm not able to properly "contextualize" my driving experience?

Yes.

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Originally posted by bas Yes.

ass

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Originally posted by Kismet7 Rich have you watched any movies lately? Those movies in which 100 commercials are drilled through everyones head at every corner they turn. For example, Avatar, there are very few people who dont know about it or might see it, or if not Avatar some other recent hollywood film many have seen. Do you have the same views about commercial movies as you do about commercial music. Would you avoid watching a popular movie the same way you would avoid listening to a popular piece of music? If you dig deep for music, do you apply this anti commercial view to other parts of culture? If not, why dont you? Dont take this as an assumption, but I find it ironic how people are so staunchly "underground" when it comes to music, yet they watch the most commercial films with the biggest multi faceted marketing out there. No one really talks about the irony of watching a commercial movie in which 100 commercials are blasted at you, but when it comes to music, its some sort of sin to listen to something commercial, but its no sin to watch the latest "must see" movie. The ideals some follow is quite a paradox. My theory is that people are conditioned by their surroundings and culture they follow. We end up supressing our own senses and those within distance to feel safer about our own ideals. Maybe we are helping eachother find a better way, but at the same time, maybe we are just helping eachother find the same mirage we found. I'm still learning/realising these things but I guess the point is to keep it real with yourself if you want to enjoy more of this life. Like what you want, dont worry if someone is not into what you are into, unless its doing harm to them, let people freely enjoy what they enjoy.

There are people that look deeper for underground [insert artform here], just like there are people that look for underground music. Be it movies, food, wine, beers, tv, books etc. This is a music forum, hence the music discussion

You don't think there are movie geeks out there that laugh at people standing in line at midnight the day before a movie is released to watch it? C'mon buddy.

i was just going thru channels and on mtv there was some commercial and the track was deadmau5, ghosts n stuff. wonder how much he made?

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Originally posted by bas There are people that look deeper for underground [insert artform here], just like there are people that look for underground music. Be it movies, food, wine, beers, tv, books etc. This is a music forum, hence the music discussion You don't think there are movie geeks out there that laugh at people standing in line at midnight the day before a movie is released to watch it? C'mon buddy.

Well thats a good argument, and no doubt there are forums for underground films. One my cousins has all these obscure movies, he gets movies that win Cannes awards and shit, but I dont think he is actively part of any movie forums. I'm just wondering why more people dont follow this way about their passionate art consumption of film, like they do about music...

Both music and film are so deeply fused into american culture that you dont have to be part of a forum to be into great underground films. For example I made a thread about great wine/beer a while back, i'm not part of any wine forum or antyhing to have an interest in good wine. Film should be an even easier jump for people to get into some sort of underground ethic that they follow with other aspects of culture/life.


Many people here came from a trance or a cheesey music start, and they eventually evolved into underground music listeners. So part of my point is, people here are conditioned to be into underground music listeners, and if they werent, they might still be listening to Trance or other more commercialized forms of EDM which are more attractive to the non conditioned listener that packs clubs when the David Guettas and Armins come around. So its pointless to point out "x music is cheese or terrible" when you only see that way because of your long patronage of this forum, and perhaps being more apt to changing to new norms to fit a system.

If these people werent here or somewhat conditioned into their evolving taste, they might be jumping around to the next David Guetta or Steve Aoki show. So I guess what im saying to Rich is you gotta understand you are a product of your surroundings, and people who think Guetta is great is simply a product of theirs. Kinda how people who are so down with the music underground, still watch cheesey commercial films, while others at a different space, level, place laugh at how clueless we are...which brings us to many things we discuss being subjective.

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Originally posted by Sadface The fact that guetta makes music that lots of people like means that he makes good music

i guess we're just going to have to disagree here because where you consider music to be good because it's popular, i don't. money, charts, awards and other such ex post facto externalities do not bear any weight upon my own valuation of the music.

quite frankly i think a lot of that success has to do with the commercialization of the music, how accessible it is and how recognizable the brand. when every goddamn trance dj in the world is playing the new tiesto track at every gig and on every podcast for six months, it's going to chart no matter what it sounds like because it sounds like everything else, and after a while i just becomes so familiar that all the kids sing along and call it a classic. this is why a mcdonalds burger sells better than an in-n-out burger. it's more accessible and the brand is more recognized. you know what you're getting and it's easy to get. everyone on the west coast of america knows in-n-out makes a better burger though. yet by your standard, what is popular is good.

my standard is my experience. when you were at guy gerber and dyed soundorom, you saw a crowd that connected with the music physically. they were twisting and shaking with the music. when you go to guetta, i imagine you see a lot of standing around, pic and video taking, hooting, light shows and sporadic jumping. that's a bunch of people kidding themselves. i mean what the fuck is this...

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Originally posted by Kismet7 If these people werent here or somewhat conditioned into their evolving taste, they might be jumping around to the next David Guetta or Steve Aoki show. So I guess what im saying to Rich is you gotta understand you are a product of your surroundings, and people who think Guetta is great is simply a product of theirs. Kinda how people who are so down with the music underground, still watch cheesey commercial films, while others at a different space, level, place laugh at how clueless we are...which brings us to many things we discuss being subjective.

i understand that, but AGAIN, i am entitled to my criticism of guetta's music am i not? and AGAIN, i'm not criticizing people who listen to guetta, i'm criticizing their rationale that guetta is a great dj because he makes a lot of money and because dj mag said so. the beginners who love tiesto, guetta and aoki because they don't know better will continue to have their fun regardless of this thread, but being that we are on a music discussion forum, i don't see why i can't have these two perfectly reasonable opinions without a bunch of apologists jumping on my back. quite frankly i don't know how i can possibly restate this another time in another way without someone else confusing my point again.

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Originally posted by Sadface The fact that guetta makes music that lots of people like means that he makes good music

Nice conclusion.

Budweiser produces beer that A LOT of people consume... probably the most consumed beer in this country... does that mean it's GOOD quality beer? Go preach Budweiser on a beer enthusiast forum and you'll get a whole lot more fuss than this

Your own valuation is different from the the intrinsic valuation, of which none can possibly exist save for the enjoyment it brings to its listeners, which is completely dependent on the listeners own context. That's all i'm trying to get at.

I'm rofling at the tracks, but those kids at TAO seem like they're having a great fucking time. Sure, they're young and listening to music they'll probably be bored of in a couple of years, but that doesn't make their experience fake or worthless.

Shit man, even you seemed to think pretty fondly about partying at amnesia a few years back.

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Originally posted by diskodave Nice conclusion. Budweiser produces beer that A LOT of people consume... probably the most consumed beer in this country... does that mean it's GOOD quality beer? Go preach Budweiser on a beer enthusiast forum and you'll get a whole lot more fuss than this

Fucking A man read the rest of my post. If the guy buying a case of budweiser a week thinks its good beer then it's good fucking beer. Who the fuck are we to tell a guy that his taste is wrong. I don't have to enjoy budweiser to appreciate that they are getting lots of people drunk on something better than coors.

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Originally posted by R!CH i mean what the fuck is this...

it's quality music

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Originally posted by Sadface Fucking A man read the rest of my post. If the guy buying a case of budweiser a week thinks its good beer then it's good fucking beer. Who the fuck are we to tell a guy that his taste is wrong. I don't have to enjoy budweiser to appreciate that they are getting lots of people drunk on something better than coors.

because its produced with the formula = quantity > quality.

i could careless how many people like it - its up to them. but i will argue that Budweiser isn't TOP QUALITY beer.

end of story.

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Originally posted by diskodave because its produced with the formula = quantity > quality. end of story.

God forbid someone try to sell cheap beer.

Should we all be drinking 10$/six pack microbrews?

Edit: eh you edited after I quoted you. I agree with you that its not top quality beer just as I agree that guetta is not top quality EDM, but they both have a niche and I'm not going to hate on them for trying to fill it. The simple fact that they're able to satisfy so many people means that they're helping to make them all happier in some small way, and that's a good thing.

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Originally posted by Sadface God forbid someone try to sell cheap beer. Should we all be drinking 10$/six pack microbrews?

I do... and that's because I appreciate beer and it's quality of taste. There is nothing WRONG with buying cheap beer, but that doesn't mean it's top quality .

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Originally posted by Sadface I agree with you that its not top quality beer just as I agree that guetta is not top quality EDM, but they both have a niche and I'm not going to hate on them for trying to fill it. The simple fact that they're able to satisfy so many people means that they're helping to make them all happier in some small way, and that's a good thing.

Perfect. We've come to agreement :P Guetta can play his heart out for whoever likes his music. But I will argue for -- if Guetta sells more records the Guy Gerber (example), then that doesn't make Guetta a better musician.

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Originally posted by Scoops Guetta gets 60-70k jsut for a 3hour gig

all for selling his soul to the devil and remixing a Brittany Spears track... ahh, the beauty of corny, cheesy, and talentless mainstream music.

I can't imagine my self sacrificing quality for a fatter checkbook... or can I?

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Originally posted by Sadface Your own valuation is different from the the intrinsic valuation, of which none can possibly exist save for the enjoyment it brings to its listeners, which is completely dependent on the listeners own context. That's all i'm trying to get at. I'm rofling at the tracks, but those kids at TAO seem like they're having a great fucking time. Sure, they're young and listening to music they'll probably be bored of in a couple of years, but that doesn't make their experience fake or worthless. Shit man, even you seemed to think pretty fondly about partying at amnesia a few years back.

what you're trying to get at is not even what i'm talking about. what i'm talking about is...

1) commercial music is cheesy, cheap, formulaic, mediocre, etc, etc, etc - agree or disagree, this has nothing to do with the fans or their enjoyment
2) the argument that some dj's merit as an artist can be explained through his money or dj mag is fallacious - there is no correlation here

in fact were i poll every long time fan of armin van buuren in regards to when he was a the top of his artistic game, i'd bet a strong majority would vote for some time long before he topped dj mag's chart. same with tiesto and pvd.

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Originally posted by diskodave Perfect. We've come to agreement :P Guetta can play his heart out for whoever likes his music. But I will argue for -- if Guetta sells more records the Guy Gerber (example), then that doesn't make Guetta a better musician.

Agreed. The term "better" is annoying when it comes to music but I think there is something to be said for having the ability to make lots of people happy.

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Originally posted by Kismet7 Well thats a good argument, and no doubt there are forums for underground films. One my cousins has all these obscure movies, he gets movies that win Cannes awards and shit, but I dont think he is actively part of any movie forums. I'm just wondering why more people dont follow this way about their passionate art consumption of film, like they do about music...

What makes you think they don't?

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Originally posted by bas What makes you think they don't?

Bam! see, bas is being subtle... he's a secret movie buff with in-laws who own lionsgate, universal, and fox... he is going to pretend he knows nothing then... BAM! kick you off TA.

jk, bas is nice. <3

lol

I'm just saying, the internetz is a vast place. You don't think there's someone on movieaddicts.com or beeraddicts.com having this same conversation about their repsective fields? That's just being naive

In fact, movie buffs are bigger assholes than music buffs! You think the dance music elite are bad, you have no idea

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Originally posted by bas In fact, movie buffs are bigger assholes than music buffs! You think the dance music elite are bad, you have no idea

lol. i can imagine.

somewhere out there there's an independent movie clovis talking shit on other independent movie clovis'. lol.

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