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-- My "people better start buying music" rant (RANT INSIDE)
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Originally posted by Kismet7 I have proof or logic for what I say...where is yours? And DJs/Producers make up only maybe .000000001% of the potential music buying population. If you think music is just bought by DJs, it shows stupid you've always been. ps: you're mental issues are getting the best of you. And you're probably not fit to converse on a forum, or perhaps any part of society. Get help first and then come back. Piracy does not hurt sales more than it helps. Its a loss leader for future gains...at its worste. Hence .0005c fish on hook (cost of piracy) for $20 trout catch.

We are speaking of edm not pop and mainstream music. You're delusional if you think consumers buy even 10% of the edm music bought. IT ISN'T EVEN MARKETED TO CONSUMERS.

The problem with your theory is that edm media is not $20 it is $2.50 at most. With such small PPI's there is only one way to make money and that is through volume. Volume of sales cannot be accomplished because most of them are pirated. When 10-20 sales gets you in the top 100 there are serious problems.

Sorry don't try and derail the topic at hand; not getting into petty personal vendettas, i'm only in this thread because you're an idiot and people need to hear the truth (not some bumbling fool who thinks if he is aggressive enough in his words people will believe him)

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Originally posted by Kismet7 I see what you did thurrr. Have you been comprehending anything in this thread? Piracy is NOT the problem. Piracy = Huge Benefit for the Music Industry

Well, whether we like it or not, the concept of buying a piece of music for personal enjoyment is going to disappear.

Piracy is unstoppable.

You can't stop someone from copying and transmitting data.

Piracy is becoming easier.

Google.

Piracy is becoming more common.

My mother knows how to download music. So do all my friends, and peers, in fact, ive yet to meet a person who pays for music, the only people I know of who buy music, are people who join debates about piracy.

Piracy is becoming acceptable.

No one cares, no one objects.

That's not going to change. But it doesn't hurt EDM at all, it only hurts those who stand to gain money from EDM.

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Originally posted by cronodevir I would be fined, but oh wait, I don't pay taxes any ways.

Come back when you learn to follow rules whether you see them as justified or not. Maybe then you can finally move out of ma's basement.

And just so the rest of TA knows; that wasn't a joke.

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Originally posted by Kismet7 I see what you did thurrr. Have you been comprehending anything in this thread? Piracy is NOT the problem. Piracy = Huge Benefit for the Music Industry

Please explain your rationale for piracy being beneficial in an already devastated market that is overcrowded with crap? And please this time go open an econ book instead of spewing out of your asshole.

And just to share one viable method of stopping piracy (this is not one of my planned methodologies just one I came up with right now for topic of conversation) what about locking a file medium similar to what iTunes did with .m4a's but making it fully locked.

I'm not talking about "dub" recordings, those will always be out there; i'm referring to a copy of the actual legitimate file.

And to Cron; are you really that selfish of a person that you feel nothing is wrong with stealing somebody's work that took from a week to a month to make? What is the point?

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Originally posted by mfitterer1 what about locking a file medium similar to what iTunes did with .m4a's but making it impossible to copy.

Loading a .m4a into any audio editing software and saving it under a WAV/MP3 extension got rid of any limitations iTunes put into the file. All it does is make things inconvenient, and quite frankly it's why I never buy music from iTunes. But it'd be far from effective.

You cannot make it "impossible to copy" without complete top down control, like having someone remotely monitor what happens on your computer every time a music file is opened. And even then people could probably find a way to spoof the system.

In any case as long as you allow direct audio recording -- either internal recording on the computer, or the "audio out / audio in" trick with cables -- there is no way to make all files stay in the "protected" format. There is just no way: as long as a protection-free file format exists, there will be a way to convert audio into that format, either through hacking the "protected" file itself or simply re-recording the audio.

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Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles You cannot make it "impossible to copy" without complete top down control, like having someone remotely monitor what happens on your computer every time a music file is opened. And even then people could probably find a way to spoof the system. In any case as long as you allow direct audio recording -- either internal recording on the computer, or the "audio out / audio in" trick with cables -- there is no way to make all files stay in the "protected" format. There is just no way: as long as a protection-free file format exists, there will be a way to convert audio into that format, either through hacking the "protected" file itself or simply re-recording the audio.

That is not a legitimate clone of the actual file though. That is a "dub" as I referenced above.

The main goal of stopping piracy needs to be stopping industry from using it for personal gain. This will eliminate most of the loss of money because to continue their jobs as dj's they still need the content whether they purchase it or pirate it.

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Originally posted by mfitterer1 And to Cron; are you really that selfish of a person that you feel nothing is wrong with stealing somebody's work that took from a week to a month to make? What is the point?

All I can say is do most people care? I don't think so. Most people work off the idea that "I can do what ever I want with what I paid for." and by that token, "If someone offered me something for free, its free." The very nature of virtual information makes the idea of quantity obsolete. And many peoples objections to theft is the fact that the one being robbed actually lost something. If I draw a picture, save it as .jpg, then copied it, and deleted the original. I haven't lost anything.

You will not change human nature.

Your sense of entitlement to not have your work copied and distributed, is based off an arbitrary law implemented in this system. Not human nature. Thus most humans will reject your entitlement out right.

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Originally posted by mfitterer1 That is not a legitimate clone of the actual file though. That is a "dub" as I referenced above.

Do you think people who listen to pirate 128kbps MP3 files will really care about a very slight addition of noise that happens with re-recording? If they listen to crappy MP3s, they will listen to a "dub" WAV file, which sounds much better than YouTube or low bitrate MP3.

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Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles Do you think people who listen to pirate 128kbps MP3 files will really care about a very slight addition of noise that happens with re-recording? If they listen to crappy MP3s, they will listen to a "dub" WAV file, which sounds much better than YouTube or low bitrate MP3.

So I guess pirating noise music will actually give better results quality wise, than buying? same for chiptunes.

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Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles Do you think people who listen to pirate 128kbps MP3 files will really care about a very slight addition of noise that happens with re-recording? If they listen to crappy MP3s, they will listen to a "dub" WAV file, which sounds much better than YouTube or low bitrate MP3.

I clearly stated that any pirate reduction efforts need to be targeted towards dj's where a 128 kbps quality WOULD make a very big difference.

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Originally posted by mfitterer1 I clearly stated that any pirate reduction efforts need to be targeted towards dj's where a 128 kbps quality WOULD make a very big difference.

Most people who pirate music are not DJs. Why would the music industry target them specifically?

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Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles Most people who pirate music are not DJs. Why would the music industry target them specifically?

I'm speaking of edm not the music industry as a whole. When I say dj's I mean people who dj, as there is a big difference.

I wish people pirated my music.

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Originally posted by Kysora I wish people pirated my music.

On an individual basis for an unknown up and coming producer piracy is a good thing as it is free marketing. But when you reached the level of say a Mike Foyle would you still feel the same way?

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Originally posted by mfitterer1 On an individual basis for an unknown up and coming producer piracy is a good thing as it is free marketing. But when you reached the level of say a Mike Foyle would you still feel the same way?

Gabe Newell (Valve) seems to feel that way, and Valve spends $10 million on a typical game - even $10,000 would be a ridiculous amount for a label to spend on an entire album. They certainly don't need the extra publicity.

I'm not condoning what the rippers and torrent sites are doing, but look, I work in the software industry where up-front costs and time-to-market are a bajillion times higher than any studio's, and I sleep a lot easier knowing that every instance of piracy constitutes exactly $0 in lost sales.

Wanna know what's really destroying the music industry? Not piracy, but their single-minded obsession with stopping it, to the point of starving their core business (putting out great music) and alienating their existing and potential customers.

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Originally posted by mfitterer1 On an individual basis for an unknown up and coming producer piracy is a good thing as it is free marketing. But when you reached the level of say a Mike Foyle would you still feel the same way?

I knew someone was going to say this.

I've never been into making music for money, and quite honestly I don't think any producers should. It's a bad mentality and trying to put out tracks to make a profit inevitably leads to manufactured, boring music.

I know this isn't what this argument is focused on but either way, I really don't think producers should be in the modern EDM scene looking to make a living. And if they think they can, they can't look at piracy as just an obstacle getting in their way from rags to riches. People who pirate music do it just because it's become so widespread nobody really puts any thought into it. They don't think "hey I'm going to go steal some music because I don't feel like paying for anything I can get for free", they think "hey this album looks neat, I'm going to check it out" and they do so through their most convenient method: piracy.

Instead of sending the message that those illegal downloaders are immoral scumbags robbing people of their hard-earned work, artists/labels should make an attempt to let those downloaders know they appreciate the effort they took to discover what they have to offer, and if they enjoyed what they heard, they should throw a donation at the artist or purchase the album. That's the only way you can "beat" piracy: by acknowledging it's not a bad thing and the people that are doing it are more than likely willing to throw some money at the artists they like out of support. Benn Jordan demonstrated that nicely enough.

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Originally posted by Kysora stuff

You want them to ask for money instead of demand it?

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Originally posted by DigiNut Gabe Newell (Valve) seems to feel that way, and Valve spends $10 million on a typical game - even $10,000 would be a ridiculous amount for a label to spend on an entire album. They certainly don't need the extra publicity. I'm not condoning what the rippers and torrent sites are doing, but look, I work in the software industry where up-front costs and time-to-market are a bajillion times higher than any studio's, and I sleep a lot easier knowing that every instance of piracy constitutes exactly $0 in lost sales. Wanna know what's really destroying the music industry? Not piracy, but their single-minded obsession with stopping it, to the point of starving their core business (putting out great music) and alienating their existing and potential customers.

First of all; software is much different than edm tracks. How can you even think about comparing them? Are you and others in the software industry pirating your mates work? I didn't think so.

Second of all your boy stated my point clear as can be. "People are buying 2k pc's and 50/month for net access (so they have money) yet they aren't willing to put out 75-80 dollars for a fucking game (or whatever it costs)???????

You realize people will allocate their money to other sources that they can't pirate and get the things they can pirate for free right?

And second of all the labels haven't done shit about piracy and have demonstrated they do not care. They figure "well we can use our name to push average/bad music out and figure people will equate it as good because it is attached to our name"

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Originally posted by Kysora I knew someone was going to say this. I've never been into making music for money, and quite honestly I don't think any producers should. It's a bad mentality and trying to put out tracks to make a profit inevitably leads to manufactured, boring music. I know this isn't what this argument is focused on but either way, I really don't think producers should be in the modern EDM scene looking to make a living. And if they think they can, they can't look at piracy as just an obstacle getting in their way from rags to riches. People who pirate music do it just because it's become so widespread nobody really puts any thought into it. They don't think "hey I'm going to go steal some music because I don't feel like paying for anything I can get for free", they think "hey this album looks neat, I'm going to check it out" and they do so through their most convenient method: piracy. Instead of sending the message that those illegal downloaders are immoral scumbags robbing people of their hard-earned work, artists/labels should make an attempt to let those downloaders know they appreciate the effort they took to discover what they have to offer, and if they enjoyed what they heard, they should throw a donation at the artist or purchase the album. That's the only way you can "beat" piracy: by acknowledging it's not a bad thing and the people that are doing it are more than likely willing to throw some money at the artists they like out of support. Benn Jordan demonstrated that nicely enough.

So if you spent 6 months working on a track and made an amazing quality production you'd be perfectly happy with people STEALING your work and using it as if they bought it?

That's my whole point is that people don't put the effort needed to make epic tracks because it is simply not worth it. The only people who will make money in that type of an economic climate is the people that do it because they love to make tracks. Unfortunately the people that have put in the 30000 hours instead of 10000 and have superior knowledge and ability are forced out and put out very few releases or move on entirely.

Want an example?

Alex Stealthy.

The only people that have superior ability have it because of confidence and the fact they love to learn and don't see the time put into the art as work but love. They know this dedication turns into monetary gain in most industries economic climates. The problem is when you see yourself not being rewarded properly for your superior works, you have to move on to another living. The people that are the best at anything all share this mindset and that is why they so easily move on to something in which they can actually make a comfortable living doing. Unfortunately in the world we live today MOST people are unable to do what they love as they have to sacrifice for what will pay the bills.

Most of you will not understand this concept because it doesn't apply to you.

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Originally posted by mfitterer1 First of all; software is much different than edm tracks. How can you even think about comparing them? Are you and others in the software industry pirating your mates work? I didn't think so.

No shit. Like I said, software costs many, many times the amount of money to produce and distribute that music does, margins are much tighter, and somehow, the industry manages to survive despite "piracy."

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Second of all your boy stated my point clear as can be. "People are buying 2k pc's and 50/month for net access (so they have money) yet they aren't willing to put out 75-80 dollars for a fucking game (or whatever it costs)??????? You realize people will allocate their money to other sources that they can't pirate and get the things they can pirate for free right?

Did you even listen to anything he said? It's not about "allocation." It's about providing a product and service that make people willing to pay the price you ask. People "pirate" because either (a) they don't believe in paying for anything at all, in which case you just lost $0, or (b) because they don't believe that you're providing them sufficient value for the price, in which case you are the problem.

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Originally posted by mfitterer1 The problem is when you see yourself not being rewarded properly for your superior works

The only problem I see here is hubris. The marketplace is the ultimate arbiter of superiority. And I agree; if the marketplace isn't showing an interest, then move on to some place where your talents are more appreciated, but don't blame piracy, it's a red herring.

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Originally posted by cronodevir You want them to ask for money instead of demand it?

From the people who are blatantly ignoring the demands, sure. If demanding worked we wouldn't be having this little debate, I'm not sure why you're reducing my post because I'm offering an alternative that's not "make more useless technological barriers to piracy that will fail the same way all the other ones already have"

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Originally posted by mfitterer1 So if you spent 6 months working on a track and made an amazing quality production you'd be perfectly happy with people STEALING your work and using it as if they bought it?

Uhh, yeah, because I'm quite sure if I spent 6 months working on that track, I'd spend it thinking "God I hope this gets circulated". It's what I think now, even though I know I really don't have the means yet. But it's still an aspiration.

Maybe on a professional level it doesn't apply, maybe it's because I don't have real industry experience, but I can't imagine making music and prioritizing the profits from each song over the number of people I can expose my craft to. Music is a hobby to me, and it's most fulfilling when other people can take part in it and enjoy what I do. If that can be accomplished through pirating, at the end of the day (or the six months) it'd be completely worth it. Even if it means having to get a day job to get by, it might eat up some of my time but that's no reason to give it up.

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Originally posted by DigiNut No shit. Like I said, software costs many, many times the amount of money to produce and distribute that music does, margins are much tighter, and somehow, the industry manages to survive despite "piracy."

Exactly my point. The software if we're speaking of computer games provides many times over. You pay once for it and it provides entertainment many times over. The depth and interaction of a computer game makes them much more valuable to a consumer. Music on the other hand is disposable. It is objective and it means more to some than it does to others. Because music doesn't provide the entertainment value that computer games do; why would someone pay for it if they could get it for free? On top of that the marketing big name dj's do creates an atmosphere where the fans think that the music is made by the dj's who spin it.

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Originally posted by DigiNut Did you even listen to anything he said? It's not about "allocation." It's about providing a product and service that make people willing to pay the price you ask. People "pirate" because either (a) they don't believe in paying for anything at all, in which case you just lost $0, or (b) because they don't believe that you're providing them sufficient value for the price, in which case you are the problem.

The difference is video games are much more than music. A standard consumer will think that because a track is $2 that a) it can't be that hard to make and b) the artist won't miss their sale that much. And I fully believe people pirate because they don't have the money or aren't stand up enough to be legit and pay for something they can get for free.

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