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-- Daniel Mackler - Essays For The Enlightenment Seeker
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Originally posted by Spam The entire combined worth of Mackler's teachings?

It's all wrapped up inside the nucleus.

Theresa, assuming you're going to go into the field of administering therapy to others, might I suggest that you clean out the majority of the skeletons in your own closet (your proclamation that you've already done so aside) so that you're better able to extend genuine compassion toward those you're attempting to assist.

Because right now, you come across as a na�ve know-it-all who has little in the way of life experience with which to back up her words. Guaranteed, if you attempt to apply the "c'mon now, just pull yourself up by your bootstraps!" method across the board, no matter how encouraging and convincing you believe your own words to be, you are going to fail miserably.

So, what lies within neurons again?

quote:

Originally posted by jennypie I never said that once, and I don't know where you're getting it from.

Well you're saying that I am wrong, which implies that you believe the opposite to what I am arguing. Therefore, it would suggest that

"you are arguing that you think people who are homeless/mentally ill (and anyone else for that matter), should blame the situation they are in on someone else?"

Like I said, I think you are misunderstanding what my point is and are arguing something against me that isn't relevant to my point.

To put it as simply as possible, my point = blaming everyone else for things in your life is not a positive thing.

Do you disagree with this?

Yeah. No person with any proper wisdom and experience with the homeless and/or addicted would ever say that shit. Because it's just plain ignorant.

quote:

Originally posted by jennypie I never said that once, and I don't know where you're getting it from. I'm not going to sit here and attempt to sum up 3 years of my education for you to help you understand why the homeless are homeless, and why the addicted are addicted. As I already said numerous times, if you really want to know more read Gabor Mate's book, and do some research on Cathy Crowe. She wrote a book too.

This proves you are arguing something entirely different to the point I am making. I am not making any commentary on the homeless or the addicted. Since we aren't even talking about the same thing, we can move on and forget it because there seems to be some communication issue.

quote:

Originally posted by PivotTechno Theresa, assuming you're going to go into the field of administering therapy to others, might I suggest that you clean out the majority of the skeletons in your own closet (your proclamation that you've already done so aside) so that you're better able to extend genuine compassion toward those you're attempting to assist. Because right now, you come across as a na�ve know-it-all who has little in the way of life experience with which to back up her words. Guaranteed, if you attempt to apply the "c'mon now, just pull yourself up by your bootstraps!" method across the board, no matter how encouraging and convincing you believe your own words to be, you are going to fail miserably. So, what lies within neurons again?

Good lord, still don't get my point.

I am not saying "c'mon now, just pull yourself up by your bootstraps!" I am saying that sitting there and allowing yourself to say "if my parents hadn't done this or that, I wouldn't be like this" or "the actions of others made me do this" etc. etc. In other words, accepting that you have no control of your own life and the way you perceive things is not a positive thing. It removes the sense that you can have control over your own fate. If you remove that sense, then people have no motivation to do anything for themselves because someone else controls it anyway.

I don't know how I can make myself anymore clear.

quote:

Originally posted by Theresa Well you're saying that I am wrong, which implies that you believe the opposite to what I am arguing. Therefore, it would suggest that "you are arguing that you think people who are homeless/mentally ill (and anyone else for that matter), should blame the situation they are in on someone else?" Like I said, I think you are misunderstanding what my point is and are arguing something against me that isn't relevant to my point. To put it as simply as possible, my point = blaming everyone else for things in your life is not a positive thing. Do you disagree with this?

I'm not even arguing that point. I'm saying that there are many factors that contribute to a person's well-being. And for those who have been dealt a shit hand, it's not as easy as "GET IT TOGETHER AND CHANGE YOUR ATTITUDE". It's not about playing the victim or looking to shunt responsibility. What you fail to understand is that the very notion of responsibility and free will is different for everyone - which is especially obvious in populations of low socio-economic status, the homeless, etc.

I don't even know why I'm talking to you. It doesn't seem like you really want to understand the issues here.

quote:

Originally posted by Theresa To put it as simply as possible, my point = blaming everyone else for things in your life is not a positive thing.

How did blaming the individual(s) who abused a person suddenly balloon to "blaming everyone"?

quote:

Originally posted by Theresa I am not saying "c'mon now, just pull yourself up by your bootstraps!" I am saying that sitting there and allowing yourself to say "if my parents hadn't done this or that, I wouldn't be like this" or "the actions of others made me do this" etc. etc. In other words, accepting that you have no control of your own life and the way you perceive things is not a positive thing. It removes the sense that you can have control over your own fate. If you remove that sense, then people have no motivation to do anything for themselves because someone else controls it anyway.

You really need to read the books I mentioned. You will look back on your current attitude and think about what a retard you were.

quote:

Originally posted by jennypie I'm not even arguing that point. I'm saying that there are many factors that contribute to a person's well-being. And for those who have been dealt a shit hand, it's not as easy as "GET IT TOGETHER AND CHANGE YOUR ATTITUDE". It's not about playing the victim or looking to shunt responsibility. What you fail to understand is that the very notion of responsibility and free will is different for everyone - which is especially obvious in populations of low socio-economic status, the homeless, etc. I don't even know why I'm talking to you. It doesn't seem like you really want to understand the issues here.

I am not saying it is a matter of "get it together" blah blah blah, either. You're making an assumption about my position that is wrong.

Mackler says "Laying blame at the feet of perpetrators is a huge step in breaking the intergenerational cycle of trauma�and sets the stage for healing."

I disagree. I think that this make a person feel out of control of their own lives and thus will accept their fate. Very defeatist attitude like, someone else dictates what will happen to me, so why should I care/bother etc.

quote:

Originally posted by PivotTechno How did blaming the individual(s) who abused a person suddenly balloon to "blaming everyone"?

Earlier, I acknowledged the situation of abuse and agreed that the individual should know that they are the victim and not the perpetrator, aka they didn't deserve to be treated that way. With that being said, I don't think it is healthy to go through life thinking that "I am screwed up because so and so did this to me".

Welp, I was never talking about Mackler in this thread. I was just sharing insights based on what I've learned the past 3 years and through researching and working with those populations.

quote:

Originally posted by jennypie Welp, I was never talking about Mackler in this thread. I was just sharing insights based on what I've learned the past 3 years and through researching and working with those populations.

Is this your veiled way of showing that you realize we aren't even talking about the same thing?



To clarify, I know that people who are mentally ill/addicted are in no mental capacity to sit themselves down and be like "ok, let's get our shit together". I am by no means trying to make a statement to suggest otherwise.

But we are essentially talking about the same thing. It all goes back to the same point regardless of how you want to paint it and to what degree.

But w/e, it's not worth arguing...at the end of the day I think that you and I agree for the most part, just there are gaps that I can see in your thinking. I'm not kidding, T, pick up 'In the Realm of Hungry Ghosts' by Gabor Mate.

quote:

Originally posted by Theresa I am saying that sitting there and allowing yourself to say "if my parents hadn't done this or that, I wouldn't be like this" or "the actions of others made me do this" etc. etc.

So for an adult who recognises even a relatively moderate amount of childhood abuse (i.e.- parents screamed at them regularly to vent their own life's frustration and not out of any wrongdoing of the child) within themselves, what would you recommend they do with all of the ill will that rises up within them when they think back to those times? Your patient gets agitated to the point of visible anger when they think of the crap that they had to put up with when they had little or no means to defend themselves and no one to talk with about how all of this felt for them - where is that anger supposed to go, exactly?

If they bottle it up/swallow it, it will make them physically/mentally ill to the point where:

- they're living in constant pain, headaches, muscular tension, etc.
- it eventually comes boiling to the surface and they unconsciously unleash it on others
- it transmutes into other neuroses, compulsions, addictions, etc.

So since bottling it up doesn't work, and you don't think it's a positive measure for them to blame those who inflicted the abuse, what's your wise suggestion?

Do tell...

quote:

Originally posted by jennypie But w/e, it's not worth arguing...at the end of the day I think that you and I agree for the most part

Aww - now you two hug

Ok, but don't look.

Well what's the point then?

To piss you off, duh.

quote:

Originally posted by PivotTechno If they bottle it up/swallow it, it will make them physically/mentally ill to the point where: - they're living in constant pain, headaches, muscular tension, etc. - it eventually comes boiling to the surface and they unconsciously unleash it on others - it transmutes into other neuroses, compulsions, addictions, etc.

Hah, just realised I'm covering about 99% of Western society here.

Time to change the current definition of "mental illness".

I guess what I took issue with was this example that Mackler used:

My observation is that all parents, even the worst parents, �did the best they could.� Yet this doesn�t let any parent off the hook. A child has the right to blame his parents for their inadequacies�because their inadequacies damaged him.

So in essence, he is saying that people can go through their lives and say "I fuck up because my parents gave me a shitty life". This is bullshit IMO. It's removing personal responsibility for your own actions/behaviours.

In terms of addiction, this attitude gives the addicted the right to say "I am a drug addict because my dad beat me" or whatever. Perhaps that is what initiated the behaviour, and acknowledging that may be a good thing (I think resolving past issues can absolutely be positive).

However, with this being said, I do not think it is a healthy behaviour to believe that others dictate your life. To say "I am a drug addict because my dad beat me" and then accept that it cannot be changed, that you have no control over it, thus giving you the excuse to continue on or to remove any personal responsibility, is not a positive thing. Like I said 230948204385 times, I think it fosters the idea that there is no point in doing anything for yourself because someone else controls what happens to you anyway.

EDIT:

quote:

Originally posted by PivotTechno So for an adult who recognises even a relatively moderate amount of childhood abuse (i.e.- parents screamed at them regularly to vent their own life's frustration and not out of any wrongdoing of the child) within themselves, what would you recommend they do with all of the ill will that rises up within them when they think back to those times? Your patient gets agitated to the point of visible anger when they think of the crap that they had to put up with when they had little or no means to defend themselves and no one to talk with about how all of this felt for them - where is that anger supposed to go, exactly? If they bottle it up/swallow it, it will make them physically/mentally ill to the point where: - they're living in constant pain, headaches, muscular tension, etc. - it eventually comes boiling to the surface and they unconsciously unleash it on others - it transmutes into other neuroses, compulsions, addictions, etc. So since bottling it up doesn't work, and you don't think it's a positive measure for them to blame those who inflicted the abuse, what's your wise suggestion? Do tell...

Selecting one piece of text that I wrote, and removing it from its context AND ignoring everything else I have said, is going to get you to this assumption.

Please re-read what I have written and maybe you will understand.

I did, and...

quote:

Originally posted by Theresa "I am a drug addict because my dad beat me" or whatever. Perhaps that is what initiated the behaviour, and acknowledging that may be a good thing (I think resolving past issues can absolutely be positive).

quote:

Originally posted by Theresa Mackler says "Laying blame at the feet of perpetrators is a huge step in breaking the intergenerational cycle of trauma�and sets the stage for healing." I disagree.

Does

not

compute.

quote:

Originally posted by PivotTechno

Read what he says in its entirety:

My observation is that all parents, even the worst parents, �did the best they could.� Yet this doesn�t let any parent off the hook. A child has the right to blame his parents for their inadequacies�because their inadequacies damaged him. Laying blame at the feet of perpetrators is a huge step in breaking the intergenerational cycle of trauma�and sets the stage for healing.

As such, I interpret his meaning of "laying blame" as placing the responsibility for your inadequacies on someone else.

This is not the same as "laying blame" on someone for doing whatever they did and therefore, hurting you, which thus made you choose to do what you did as a result.

The one implies that you skip the personal choice (whether it be reactionary based on something shitty or whatever), and the other acknowledges that you controlled what you did, but understand that it was because of a reaction. In other words, the one implies that you have no personal responsibility for your own actions, and the other does.

If you are wounded, you have but one responsibility - to heal yourself.

Theresa, my guess is that you're probably way too hard on yourself with a lot that goes on in your life and that you would do well to learn to extend some major compassion toward yourself. Just sayin'...

And as much as it seems like I'm hammering you on this, I'm really on your side. As a therapist, you're only able to take a patient as far as you've gone yourself, and that's an important thing to undestand early on in the game. This requires extended periods of brutally honest introspection, a concept most people are barely capable of grasping.

One thing Mackler's right about is that therapists who haven't got their own shit together will, without a doubt, end up doing a great disservice to their patients. I once knew a older, male therapist who counselled female victims of sexual abuse, then asked his teenage granddaughters to give him massages while they were alone on a road trip they'd all taken. An ex and I used to go to couples counselling, and the female therapist at one point admitted to my gf (after we'd split up) that she had a decided bias against me. When I found out I was so furious that I called the bitch up and told her she should seriously reconsider whether she should be charging people for, or even administering therapy. At least she had the humility to admit she was very much in the wrong.

Here's a fun one:

A mother once came to Ghandi and asked if he'd tell her son to stop eating sweets. Ghandi told the mother to come back with the son in three days and he'd take care of it. When the mother and son returned, she became curious and asked Ghandi why he'd made her wait three days. Ghandi replied, "Because three days ago I had not stopped eating sweets."

quote:

Originally posted by PivotTechno If you are wounded, you have but one responsibility - to heal yourself. Theresa, my guess is that you're probably way too hard on yourself with a lot that goes on in your life and that you would do well to learn to extend some major compassion toward yourself. Just sayin'... And as much as it seems like I'm hammering you on this, I'm really on your side. As a therapist, you're only able to take a patient as far as you've gone yourself, and that's an important thing to undestand early on in the game. One thing Mackler's right about is that therapists who haven't got their own shit together will, without a doubt, end up doing a great disservice to their patients. I once knew a older, male therapist who counselled female victims of sexual abuse, then asked his teenage granddaughters to give him massages while they were alone on a road trip they'd all taken. An ex and I used to go to couples counselling, and the female therapist at one point admitted to my gf (after we'd split up) that she had a decided bias against me. When I found out I was so furious that I called the bitch up and told her she should seriously reconsider whether she should be charging people for, or even administering therapy. Here's a fun one: A mother once came to Ghandi and asked if he'd tell her son to stop eating sweets. Ghandi told the mother to come back with the son in three days and he'd take care of it. When the mother and son returned, she became curious and asked Ghandi why he'd made her wait three days. Ghandi replied, "Because three days ago I had not stopped eating sweets."

Dude, you're just speaking gibberish. You aren't even reading what I am writing, or at the very least, not comprehending it. Your little slycho-analysis on my own life is quite riveting though, no matter how off base you are.

Also, I don't intend to be a therapist. I am too empathetic and would end up carrying the weight of other people's problems on my own shoulders. That would be far too stressful for me. Instead, I intend to focus on child psychology and education.

Way to ignore my point altogether and tell me wonderful little stories instead

quote:

Originally posted by Theresa I am too empathetic and would end up carrying the weight of other people's problems on my own shoulders.

Any problem that someone else has that resonates so strongly with you that you end up carrying it around yourself is simply a reflection of your own unresolved garbage.

Trust me on this one.

And kids (if you work directly with them) will see through your thin veneer much faster than any adult will.

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