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Originally posted by SYSTEM-J A club is just a business, it can cease to exist, it can change its name, its location, everything. A team like Arsenal can switch from being a renowned defensive side to an attacking side at the switch of a manager. The players can come from anywhere. Some clubs represent the distinctive culture of their region, which is why Barcelona are "More Than A Club" and why any Barca fan who is not a Catalan is not "getting" the full experience. It's a matter of identity. England are part of my identity. They're a team you cheer for entertainment.

All fair points, however you should specify that its �cultural identity�. Because teams you cheer for are certainly part of your identity, just like the music you like or the chicks that you dig. Im not sure I�d ever �get it�, regardless of where I was born. Sport to me is just another form of entertainment.

btw guys....world cup forum is open on TA /blatant whoring

http://www.tranceaddict.com/forums/...?s=&forumid=123

I'm looking forward to England smashing up the U.S.A in our group.

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Originally posted by Simon_N I'm looking forward to England smashing up the U.S.A in our group.

England will turn usa into cake ingredients.

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Originally posted by SYSTEM-J There is a British tradition of the glorious failure, which has been represented in our culture for centuries, from The Charge Of The Light Brigade to A Bridge Too Far. It's similar with the Spanish - there's a good reason their national team is nicknamed "The Armada". The glorious failure of the England team is part of our national identity, our stiff-upper-lip, our ability to persist in the face of disaster. It's the reason our TV commentators are always restrained when American ones scream wildly. It's about way, way more than just "taking pride" in whatever success we can accrue.

Cool, that's how you feel it, and it's nice to see you can trace your support for your team to something bigger and that has an impact on your identity (as you pointed out a few posts above, England is part of your identity). But that, ultimately, your choice.

But to claim your choice is inherently superior than that of someone else's simply because it means something to you... that's an entirely different matter altogether.

I consider my nationality to be as important to my sense of self as the colour of the socks I'm wearing right now.

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Originally posted by SYSTEM-J You've made a lot of posts recently stressing how our mindsets, attitudes and assumptions depend a great deal on our native cultures, whether it's wearing trainers to a wedding or putting your shitty toilet paper in a bin rather than flushing it. As such, you should be more aware than most that our identities are inextricable from the cultural surroundings that shaped us. The England team is a cultural product - only my country could have produced that team - and as a football fan it is part of me.

Actually, I don't think for a single minute that it is as deterministic as this quote makes it. The reason why I wear trainers to a wedding is because I've chosen to do it and no friend has ever been bothered by that - I wouldn't call it at all cultural. What may be "cultural" is the fact that no one was (visibly) bothered by my wearing of trainers to weddings, and I saw a groom or two wearing them with a tuxedo in the party that followed the ceremony. It was my choice (and the choice of that particular groom) to wear trainers, not something culturally imposed.

The fact is that no one goes around defying the rules all the time: I've never been bothered by the used toilet paper in a bit, I've always taken this for granted. The moment I learned I could throw it in the toilet, I made a choice - from that moment on, I chose not flush it because it's not a habit I'd rather pick up. Not because it has anything to do with my identity, but because I can't know for certain whether all plumbing here where I live supports this.

By the way, lest you forget, England itself is a cultural product.

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Originally posted by digitalbreach btw I request...Ireland too early..?

epic.

I want to cheer for IRE now.

Oh do one for France, im cheering for them as soon as we get kicke out

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Originally posted by Moongoose Oh do one for France, im cheering for them as soon as we get kicke out

Brilliant

Haha. Love it.

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Originally posted by Lira But to claim your choice is inherently superior than that of someone else's simply because it means something to you... that's an entirely different matter altogether.

I'm not claiming it's "superior" as such. There are no points being scored or anything. But you're not going to get what the World Cup is about in the same way, because it's way more than just "you watch the match and support the team. If the team you support wins, good" as you said earlier. If you don't want to do anymore than that, fair enough, but don't claim "There isn't much more to it".

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Actually, I don't think for a single minute that it is as deterministic as this quote makes it.

Deterministic or not, if you're denying that our cultural surroundings shape our thinking, especially about other cultural products, then I don't know what to say to you.

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Originally posted by EddieZilker Are your sentiments widely held in England, System_J, or is your axiom/fan ethos more your own individual preference?

I don't know if they'd express it in so many words, but most people here would definitely associate their identity with the national team. It's possibly difficult to explain just how deeply football is ingrained in this country's culture.

One of the issues I'm surprised nobody has brought up is that of post-colonialism. It often surprises me how many people on this forum seem to hold a kind of dual national identity: American/Egyptian, American/Spanish, American/Russian, Australian/Croatian etc. That doesn't seem to happen so much in England, despite the fact we're just as much of a post-colonial nation as anywhere, and immigration is not exactly uncommon here. I found this extract, taken from from a recent article with Cameroonian footballer Benoit Assou-Ekotto, very interesting:

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Assou-Ekotto is beginning to look ahead to the World Cup finals with Cameroon. Although he was born in France and has a French mother, there has never been any issue over his allegiance. Like many young people in France born to an immigrant parent or parents, he feels that "the country does not want us to be part of this new France. So we identify ourselves more with our roots. "Me playing for Cameroon was a natural and normal thing. I have no feeling for the France national team; it just doesn't exist. When people ask of my generation in France, 'Where are you from?', they will reply Morocco, Algeria, Cameroon or wherever. But what has amazed me in England is that when I ask the same question of people like Lennon and Defoe, they'll say: 'I'm English.' That's one of the things that I love about life here."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/...ttenham-hotspur

what about a russian one plz

quote:

Originally posted by SYSTEM-J I don't know if they'd express it in so many words, but most people here would definitely associate their identity with the national team. It's possibly difficult to explain just how deeply football is ingrained in this country's culture. One of the issues I'm surprised nobody has brought up is that of post-colonialism. It often surprises me how many people on this forum seem to hold a kind of dual national identity: American/Egyptian, American/Spanish, American/Russian, Australian/Croatian etc. That doesn't seem to happen so much in England, despite the fact we're just as much of a post-colonial nation as anywhere, and immigration is not exactly uncommon here. I found this extract, taken from from a recent article with Cameroonian footballer Benoit Assou-Ekotto, very interesting: http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/...ttenham-hotspur

Depends on the person. While all four of my family (parents, brother and myself) are Aussies and Kiwis by citizenship and do associate with the people and in a way call it home, there is never any doubt that we're Croatian and that is the real home . Mind you, we were all born there and grew up there at least for a time. It's very different for someone born in the country their parents emigrated to. Had I for example been born here, I most likely would refer to myself as an Australian. Alas, that is not the case and despite where I've lived and what citizenships I hold, home will always be home.

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Originally posted by Lira

Fantastic!

Vot tvoy russkiy sig

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Originally posted by SYSTEM-J I'm not claiming it's "superior" as such. There are no points being scored or anything. But you're not going to get what the World Cup is about in the same way, because it's way more than just "you watch the match and support the team. If the team you support wins, good" as you said earlier. If you don't want to do anymore than that, fair enough, but don't claim "There isn't much more to it".

But, the things you mentioned aren't inherent to what it means to support a team. They're a reflection of why you chose to support your own team, and it says more about you than it says about rooting for some players that can't hear you.

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Originally posted by SYSTEM-J Deterministic or not, if you're denying that our cultural surroundings shape our thinking, especially about other cultural products, then I don't know what to say to you.

It does, I can't deny our social nature, but we can escape it once we reflect upon it.

thank you!

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Originally posted by Lira But, the things you mentioned aren't inherent to what it means to support a team.

Obviously not, or you wouldn't semantically be able to support any other team. However, it's a pretty inherent relationship between the team and you, the complete World Cup experience. Anything less and it's "just a game".

They're a reflection of why you chose to support your own team, and it says more about you than it says about rooting for some players that can't hear you.

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It does, I can't deny our social nature, but we can escape it once we reflect upon it.

I don't think you can escape it, you can only subvert it for a space of time.

Where is Portugal?

Maybe i should close the thread before lira puts up Portugal.....

Maybe System-J should stop crying about nationalities or whatever it is he's been pissing on about so Lira can make a fucking Portugal sig.

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Originally posted by Banora Maybe System-J should stop crying about nationalities or whatever it is he's been pissing on about so Lira can make a fucking Portugal sig.

Haha, I just got home

By the way, did I get the Danish bit in your sig right?

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Originally posted by SYSTEM-J I don't think you can escape it, you can only subvert it for a space of time.

I think our disagreement can be boiled down to this. But, I think we can only agree to disagree by now

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Originally posted by Lira I think our disagreement can be boiled down to this. But, I think we can only agree to disagree by now

lol.... so "ronaldo" fitting.

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