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-- Must be my age - finding myself falling for the 'clean' sound.
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I suppose practicality is the problem with comparing different drugs. People can have one or 2 drinks as it does taste good but nobody will do 1/8 of a pill or 1/16 of a gram of cocaine. If you made a standardized dosage for any given pure substance, I am convinced alcohol would have the highest impact on your body. Again due to practicality, most studies involving drugs use participants that already use them and they already tend to be addicts so the results are not much use for an objective look on how different chemicals affect the body. This is why I specified that what I said does not take into account the addiction factor.

The thing I don't like about alcohol is this:

If you take an opiate, the actual doses required to get an effect are extremely low, this obviously changes with tolerance but compare it to alcohol.
In order to get an effect from alcohol, you have to drink an exponentially larger volume. Both alcohol and opiates will effect different regions of the brain, but opiates are more selective. Alcohol fucks with EVERYTHING.

Comparing a "moderate" dose of each, say it takes 100mg of oxycodone to get a moderate effect (which is really a lot for most people). And lets say it takes the avg person 4-6 beers to get a similar moderate effect.
That alcohol is flooding your bloodstream, exposing its corrosive properties at a much higher level than 100mg of a hydrochloride salt. Your organs are literally sitting in that alcohol, liver, kidneys, brain, the CNS. There is a much more intense corrosive effect on your body in general. I see people who have been drinking for only 3-4 years and their bodies look fucked up. Blood vessels are breaking in their skin, their skin turns bright red, it also has a notable corroded look to it. If I see a moderate oxy/opiate user they look a lot healthier after only a couple of years. They can STILL go to the gym and work out, they can still do a great deal of normal things that alcohol wears away in alcoholics. If that same opiate user turns into a full out junkie, then yeh they start seriously fucking on their nervous system in general, but I still think alcohol is much more traumatic for the body.
After I drink my whole body aches, my joints hurt, my body floods with water and bloats, I get a headaches, I can FEEL how traumatic the alcohol is to my body after only 1 use. If I take a moderate dose of opiates I do NOT feel like my body has been traumatized. Although I may feel a bit tired the following day its still not even close to how I feel after drinking.

All I know is when I use to binge drink early in college I always felt like shit. I never felt that way with opiates untill your body actually adapts to them, and then yeh you feel unhealthy, but it takes a lot longer to feel that way imo.
Look at the users alcohol has in industry, it dissolves paints, corrodes polymers, and is used a solvent for solutes that are generally stubborn. Drinking a couple drinks I don't mind, but when you get enough alcohol in your blood I question what its actually doing to your organs. It changes the chemistry of your blood soooo much more than a hydrochloride salt will, and I just believe alcohol is much more of a poison to the body in general, like M4B said.

100 mg of oxycodone ? you realize most percocets used for pain have about 5 mg of oxycodone. That is an insane dosage. Perhaps you are thinking of a ratio pill like percocets including the tylenol that it is cut with usually 325mg to every 5mg of opiates.I can take 2 percocets and feel loopy and that is only 10 mgs. I did google it tho and they do make such a pill. That must floor you although the ones I read about were time released.

quote:

Originally posted by Mad for Brad I don't see why it is that hard to understand, I'm not advocating taking anything, I just think most people like yourselves have absolutely no idea how drugs work and how they interact with your body.

Umm, I have a Biomedical Science degree and I work in the pharmaceutical industry. I have countless friends and colleagues in the pharma sector, medical devices sector, health care professionals (GPs, specialists), in research and so on.
Me entire job revolves around me knowing exactly how drugs work on the smallest level. I've spent countless hours explaining to doctors exactly what everything means, getting into amazing detail, discussing metabolic pathways, side effects, indications etc

JBJ provided you with a meta-analysis which is the highest form of evidence available, and yet you ask him for a single study? You clearly don't understand what a meta-analysis is then.

Have you never spoken to a cardiologist before? You would be hard pressed to find one that would speak against a glass of red wine per day, because they are aware of the beneficial chemicals that come from the grape skin (mainly red wine) and are also aware that a glass or two to a normal persons liver is negligible in terms of work and damage.

Robby - What you're talking about is a dose related to a symptomatic effect. Just because you intake a certain amount of something, doesn't mean it's not doing anything if you don't feel it.
You're also linking 'heavy alcohol consumption' to everything. A drink or two is not corrosive to your insides, any potential damage is easily cleaned up by your cells which are dying and replicating anyway, constantly, all throughout your life.
Wine is also a natural product, most opioids are semi-synthetic. Some like methadone are even fully synthetic. They are also addictive by their very nature.
Need I go on?

After you drink your whole body aches? You need to go see a doctor because that's not a normal response and it's absurd for you to take your single experience with it and attribute it to all people.

Both of you, just stop. It's abundantly clear that you're basing your opinions on some sort of personal experience and most likely a completely skewed view of the subject we're discussing. All you're doing is spreading misinformation around.
Go back to what you're good at, music.

quote:

Originally posted by Fledz Umm, I have a Biomedical Science degree and I work in the pharmaceutical industry. I have countless friends and colleagues in the pharma sector, medical devices sector, health care professionals (GPs, specialists), in research and so on. Me entire job revolves around me knowing exactly how drugs work on the smallest level. I've spent countless hours explaining to doctors exactly what everything means, getting into amazing detail, discussing metabolic pathways, side effects, indications etc .

You have an undergrad and you work for a pharmaceutical company. Impressive. The undergrad is the new high school diploma but good for you. You are 23, probably just graduated with an intro position. You actually think you learned much in those 4 years ? I've probably taken as many electives in science as you did for your entire degree. If you are so knowledgeable, perhaps you could explain how morphine is metabolized and how it differs from alcohol. You are assuming that people are only drinking 2 drinks. Consider a dosage of heroin to the effect of getting high to someone that gets drunk. Now use that as an index to administer what 2 beers would be in terms of similar indexed dosage of morphine. If you think the alcohol is better for your body, you are just dumb.

Again your mention of a GP recommending wine is association, not causation. The reduction of stress is what the doctor is advocating, not drinking. Unfortunately alcohol is the only legal downer without a prescription.

And if you think meta analysis is the end all and be all of research, here is one on homeopathy available on pubmed

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19371571

meta analysis is open to bias by the very person who compiles the studies and chooses what to include and what not to included. The one posted by JBJ showed absolutely no causation. Of course your low level of education has probably not allowed your critical thinking skills to mature past what your pharm company tells you what is and isn't the truth. As far as sticking to what i'm good at, well that is a long fucking list. But for now, I seem to be excelling in pissing you off so I will stick with that.

Here are some studies that say otherwise than doctors that really don't know what they are talking about. It is more the anti oxidants of the grape rather than the alcohol that present a health benefit. Eat some fucking grapes you lemon.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20661834
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20693964
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20378684
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20045009

quote:

Originally posted by Mad for Brad 100 mg of oxycodone ? you realize most percocets used for pain have about 5 mg of oxycodone. That is an insane dosage. Perhaps you are thinking of a ratio pill like percocets including the tylenol that it is cut with usually 325mg to every 5mg of opiates.I can take 2 percocets and feel loopy and that is only 10 mgs. I did google it tho and they do make such a pill. That must floor you although the ones I read about were time released.

Yeh I've seen the 5mg before but they never really did anything to me unless I took a bunch of them. Even the first time I ever took oxy I think I did 20mg and it just made me a bit relaxed/chill, but none of the class opiate effects I was expecting (I had played around with fentanyl a bit before that which is prob why).

We would normally get the 30mg and the most I would take at anytime was 2-3, so I'm not sure why I mentioned 100mg that is actually insanely high when I think about it lol.

60mg is usually more than enough and I only go above that if I'm feeling crazy. I know a lot of people who get effects at low doses like you mentioned I just couldn't really distinguish from placebo being that low. The reason I said 100mg is because I have a friend who's hooked on that shit and he takes anywhere between 200mg-250mg a day, which I consider "high". I consider your dose at 10mg low, and 100mg just seemed like a good in between #. I've never gotten anything bigger than the 30mg though it would make sense that the 100mg ones wouldn't be instant release (too many newbies would prob kill themself).

well their's one thing we can agree on booze gives you the shits!!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Mad for Brad You have an undergrad and you work for a pharmaceutical company. Impressive. The undergrad is the new high school diploma but good for you. If you are so knowledgeable, perhaps you could explain how morphine is metabolized and how it differs from alcohol. You are assuming that people are only drinking 2 drinks. Consider a dosage of heroin to the effect of getting high to someone that gets drunk. Now use that as an index to administer what 2 beers would be in terms of similar indexed dosage of morphine. If you think the alcohol is better for your body, you are just dumb.

You realise you're grouping all alcohol together right? Wine, beer and spirits have plenty of different ingredients and effects on the body because of it.
Once again, you stated that alcohol is the biggest poison. It's not. That is an absurd thing to say especially when you consider how beneficial resveratrol appears to be when ingested in moderation, mainly sourced from red wine.

Also, we're talking about standard amounts here, one or two drinks per day. You can't say that someone might drink a keg of beer and that it's not good for them. Well no shit there Sherlock.

I don't work with opioids though I almost did, so I'm not going to pretend I know them inside and out, but I do know that it's extremely addictive which we've covered already and while it does show some benefits in long term use (which drug doesn't?), it's also shown to negatively affect the immune system over a long period of time even in low doses, something that doesn't compare to alcohol at low doses and most likely not even at higher doses for an extended period of time.

quote:

Originally posted by Mad for Brad Again your mention of a GP recommending wine is association, not causation. The reduction of stress is what the doctor is advocating, not drinking. Unfortunately alcohol is the only legal downer without a prescription.

Once again not true. The advocation of a glass or two of red wine, perhaps even a glass of a spirit such a cognac/whisky comes from the specialists who have observed great benefits for the hearth and cardiovascular system in general, when taken in moderation at regular intervals over a prolonged period.
A lot of it is anecdotal evidence but it's by far the vast majority and you would have no trouble finding a heap of discussions and papers on the benefits of moderate alcohol consumption.

quote:

Originally posted by Mad for Brad And if you think meta analysis is the end all and be all of research, here is one on homeopathy available on pubmed http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19371571 meta analysis is open to bias by the very person who compiles the studies and chooses what to include and what not to included. The one posted by JBJ showed absolutely no causation. Of course your low level of education has probably not allowed your critical thinking skills to mature past what your pharm company tells you what is and isn't the truth. As far as sticking to what i'm good at, well that is a long fucking list. But for now, I seem to be excelling in pissing you off so I will stick with that.

What does that pumbed journal entry have to do with anything we're discussing? Is that some sort of attempt at discrediting all meta-analysis?

Of course they are open to bias, but that's what peer review is for. Do you even understand how science works? Do I need to bring PKC here in for you to explain to you basic science concepts like he had to for the 911 conspiracy theorists, or will you continue to pretend you understand it?

It's funny that you assume I'm pissed off, when you were the one that originally had a hissy fit and quit this forum, then returned with an alt. You're still the exact same egotistical jackass you were before and I look forward to the day you throw your toys out of the pram again

Why are people even arguing that alcohol isn't bad for you in low doses? What the fuck does that prove about the safety of drinking to the point of inebriation? What a stupid argument.

Also, fuck off Fledz. I've seen M4B contribute to dozens of threads in a contributive, helpful manner. He's holding a contest with his own money to encourage progressive thinking in what's becoming a stale genre and he's taking time to work personally with whoever needs help with the materials.

Even if he is an egotistical jackass he's fucking earned it.

quote:

Originally posted by Kysora Also, fuck off Fledz. I've seen M4B contribute to dozens of threads in a contributive, helpful manner. He's holding a contest with his own money to encourage progressive thinking in what's becoming a stale genre and he's taking time to work personally with whoever needs help with the materials. Even if he is an egotistical jackass he's fucking earned it.

I've got absolutely nothing against his production abilities and he is a good producer with plenty to share. I'm not denying that at all.

His attitude sucks though, especially about things he has absolutely no idea about yet seems to think he's Gods gift to humanity.
I can't sit here while people spread misinformation around.

Sorry if it's hijacking the forum, and I certainly didn't meant to take anything away from people actually producing music and discussing music related topics

what exactly am I saying ? you said you have no idea how morphine is metabolized, which was pretty critical in my argument. How can you possibly say i'm full of shit when you yourself claim you don't know anything regarding the chemical in question. You are the one being egotistical just being out of school thinking he knows everything. You actually think you learn anything in those 4 years ? You got an intro position at a pharm company which they are most likely teaching you how to sell their drugs. People that work for pharm companies are not really known for being unbiased.

my opinions are formed by research, having a veteran anesthetist in the family, an uncle who is a heart surgeon that also backs up what she says. Show me a study regarding alcohol as a singular compound that alone causes health benefits that cannot be achieved in a more healthy fashion. Again, not association but causation. Then I will gladly shut the fuck up. I've just posted 4 studies showing links to even mild drink to serious health issues.

quote:

Originally posted by Mad for Brad you said you have no idea how morphine is metabolized, which was pretty critical in my argument. How can you possibly say i'm full of shit when you yourself claim you don't know anything regarding the chemical in question.

quote:

Originally posted by Fledz I don't work with opioids though I almost did, so I'm not going to pretend I know them inside and out, but I do know...etc etc

I'm sorry what? Care to actually read and quote properly next time?


There you go again, you're condescending and rude about subjects which you don't have enough knowledge in.
I have plenty of relatives who are medical practitioners as well, what's your point? Doesn't that essentially put us on the same footing before you consider my education and experience?
Also I'm not in an intro position and I'm not just out of school. Thank you for jumping to conclusions again.

You are 23. How much experience could you possibly have ? I've also asked a simple question. Please explain how morphine is metabolized tell me how that is in any way less health than drinking a glass of red wine. Simple question for someone that claims to know so much about the topic. And not to throw an ad hominem at you but you went to school in Australia. I mean Sydney barely made it to the top 100.

Well for one apparently more so than you.
It's metabolised primarily by the liver but as I've already mentioned, long term use can lead to dependency and affect the immune system negatively.

Alcohol is produced daily in the body anyway, so the liver and kidney to a degree are designed to metabolise it without any effort what so ever at an appropriate dosage.
Morphine is also partially created too.
A glass or red wine per day will not lead to dependency though and seems to be more beneficial for the body, not less over a prolonged period of time, especially for the heart and cardiovascular system.

The trouble with alcohol in the world is more to do with how it temporarily affects the brain and impairs judgement, leading to uncharacteristic behaviour (such a aggressiveness) and/or drink driving.

Now, explain once again why alcohol as you so clearly stated, is a poison and such a bane on humanity?

funny i never see fledz contribute here production-wise.

This thread is a prime example of why I don't like coming here anymore.

so dont and shut up?

Yeah, I'll leave you social rejects to bicker about nonsense in a thread that was originally something completely different.

Rock the fuck on.

Remind me again.... What has all of this got to do with Trance production?

good i hate whiny ****s.

good?

How's the weather in Oslo? Any churches burning nearby?

I think someone should lock this thread, but that seems to happen quite little in the production studio

its sunny as always.

quote:

Originally posted by Raphie Remind me again.... What has all of this got to do with Trance production?

This whole thread is pretty much how it goes anytime I get drunk and discuss compression.

All we do is talk production! This is giving us insight into everyone's addictive and destructive personalities

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