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-- Mormon mother "abuses" child, gets ridiculed by entire world
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quote:

Originally posted by EgosXII what if parents are lazy in their punishment on that side?? THATs what causes spoiled ****s imo... kids learn their actions have no consequences, and can get away with anything: If they cry they get cuddled, if they're bad they get put in their room for a bit, oh how horribleh...

That's the fucking point of what I'm saying. Parenting and discipline require time, energy, and patience. I'm not sure why you think I'm advocating lazy parenting or no discipline at all.

I want to take a potato peeler to every inch of her body. Slowly.

quote:

Originally posted by igottaknow When I was younger I got spanked, the belt, and soap in the mouth (not in the particular order though). The soap was for saying a word I learned in school, belt/spank was for being belligerent and disrespecting my parents. I'm not usually a fan of physical punishment but at a younger age when your reasoning and maturity isn't high sometimes a good whack gets through to you. But I can see as a parent you have to watch out because you could over use it and become reliant on it because it gets results. Used sparingly its useful as a threat, like if you cross a line, you have something waiting in reserve.

I agree with this.

I've seen way too many kids disrespecting parents and teachers! (that was a first when I move to the states.. ). A good spank is needed every once in a while

On a sidenote



Not sure if it's a fake or real.. but I would not mind a couple of times lol.. what would you do to punish this kid adequately?

quote:

Originally posted by Miss Pie That's the fucking point of what I'm saying. Parenting and discipline require time, energy, and patience. I'm not sure why you think I'm advocating lazy parenting or no discipline at all.

because my point was, if a parent isn't on perfect form, and accurate in their parenting 100% of the time (which is pretty much EVERY parent), your kind of punishment will lead to far worse children than if you give them a little slap on the ass when they're bad...

the point was, not many parents are going to be able to achieve the level of attention required to make respectful kids out of the method you're talking about, whereas hitting transcends all the bullshit. Its something everybody can understand, even kids who (again, not sure what your stance is) ARE psychologically the same as adults, or AREN'T!


simplified: No punishment is perfect, the light-hearted reprimand has far greater scope to go wrong than a gentle, physical punishment.

if you get sloppy with the light-hearted shit then you're going to end up with absolute scum, if you get sloppy with corporal punishment you'll have an over-polite, whipped person who is, at least, a good member of society.

If you can't put the time and effort into parenting with patience, love, and kindness then you shouldn't have kids. Period.

quote:

Originally posted by Miss Pie If you can't put the time and effort into parenting with patience, love, and kindness then you shouldn't have kids. Period.

oh sorry, i forgot we were talking about fantasy worlddddd


there's no perfect parenting, every home, every parent, and every kid is different: No parent is going to slavishly look after their kid, its literally impossible, and also, according to some studies should not be done. Kids have to be independant too. Surely you're not that much of an idealist to claim there's 'good' and 'bad' parenting?

quote:

Originally posted by EgosXII oh sorry, i forgot we were talking about fantasy worlddddd

I have kids. My oldest is 4, and all i have to do is look at her the wrong way and she'll be upset. Is it because she's a girl? Doubt it.. i've seen lots of bratty girls. Is it because i gave birth to a perfect child? Probably not.. Is it because i'm a super hero? No. I raised her pretty much the way jenny is talking about. I have always been consistant, firm and reasonable. I have done the incredibly stupid wussy thing, and looked her in the eye and TOLD her what she did wrong, why we don't do it, and what will happen if she does it again. She is a very polite, well rounded, well behaved kid. Often i have to explain to her why other kids at the mall are screaming and kicking on the floor, or punching their mum in the face. I don't expect her to be like this forever, but so far so good.. so really.. i must be doing something right?! Seeing as i am the only one (i know of) that is speaking from direct experience of raising a kid, i agree with what jenny is saying.

Parenting doesn't have to be perfect, but there's no excuse for hitting your fucking children. What a pathetic copout.

And allowing your children to be independent is a completely different aspect of parenting from disciplining them.

Of course there's good and bad parenting, lol.

quote:

Originally posted by wienerschnitzel Seeing as i am the only one (i know of) that is speaking from direct experience of raising a kid, i agree with what jenny is saying.

definitely

congratulations

why do you think some kids are messed up then? is it because they're hit, or is it because of more than that?

Kids turn out the way they do mostly because of genetics. Bad apples beget more bad apples, and good ones beget the opposite.

[/big wet blanket]

quote:

Originally posted by EgosXII why do you think some kids are messed up then? is it because they're hit, or is it because of more than that?

There are SOOOOoooo many things that can mess up kids that answering the first question is nearly impossible.

quote:

Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles Kids turn out the way they do mostly because of genetics. Bad apples beget more bad apples, and good ones beget the opposite. [/big wet blanket]

NO! You've got it all wrong. It's the sins of the father. Genetics is a hoax.











READ THE BIBLE!!! It's in there.

quote:

Originally posted by Miss Pie Of course there's good and bad parenting, lol.

are you just trolling me now? where is the line jenny? what is parenting measured by? Good and bad implies a guideline, so who created that? please, please answer these questions.

quote:

Originally posted by EddieZilker There are SOOOOoooo many things that can mess up kids that answering the first question is nearly impossible.

that's pretty much the point

quote:

Originally posted by EgosXII definitely congratulations why do you think some kids are messed up then? is it because they're hit, or is it because of more than that?

i do believe that some kids are just full of piss and vinegar, and even the perfect parenting wouldn't change that, on that note, i don't think corporal punishment would either.

from what i've seen with neibours, friends etc. is INCONSISTENCY. I often hear shit like "DON'T DO THAT OR YOU'LL HAVE A TIME OUT" *kid does it again, proceeds to look at parent for reaction* parent repeats *I'M SERIOUS DON'T DO THAT AGAIN OR YOU'LL HAVE A TIME OUT" etc. Basically alot of empty threats, so the kid will always call your bluff. Also i think kids do things to get attention whether it's positive or negative attention, so if they have siblings that are close in age, and the parent is frustrated multi-tasking and trying to manage them, the parent will get lazy and over look alot of things or continue with empty threats and hope they'll work. This is why i decided to wait a few years before having another kid. I spent alot of time with my first, and now i spend alot of time with my second. Since my 4 year old is old enough to understand babies need alot of work, she doesn't take it so personal, and she helps out.

To be honest, i didn't even watch the video, i can only imagine what it was by reading what people said. I am interested to see what challenges my son will provide as a kid, since boys seem more abrasive. (totally speculating here..) but i am confident i will never hit or beat or fuck with my kids heads, that i will find an alternative that is just as or more effective.

Parenting is measured by the outcomes of the child. A well-behaved, well-adjusted child with a high sense of self-esteem who respects his or herself and others is usually a strong indicator of good parenting.

An ill-behaved, poorly adjusted child with low self-esteem who respects neither his or herself or others is usually a strong indicator of bad parenting.

You're telling me that you can't tell the difference between a good and bad parent?

quote:

Originally posted by wienerschnitzel i do believe that some kids are just full of piss and vinegar, and even the perfect parenting wouldn't change that, on that note, i don't think corporal punishment would either. from what i've seen with neibours, friends etc. is INCONSISTENCY. I often hear shit like "DON'T DO THAT OR YOU'LL HAVE A TIME OUT" *kid does it again, proceeds to look at parent for reaction* parent repeats *I'M SERIOUS DON'T DO THAT AGAIN OR YOU'LL HAVE A TIME OUT" etc. Basically alot of empty threats, so the kid will always call your bluff. Also i think kids do things to get attention whether it's positive or negative attention, so if they have siblings that are close in age, and the parent is frustrated multi-tasking and trying to manage them, the parent will get lazy and over look alot of things or continue with empty threats and hope they'll work. This is why i decided to wait a few years before having another kid. I spent alot of time with my first, and now i spend alot of time with my second. Since my 4 year old is old enough to understand babies need alot of work, she doesn't take it so personal, and she helps out. To be honest, i didn't even watch the video, i can only imagine what it was by reading what people said. I am interested to see what challenges my son will provide as a kid, since boys seem more abrasive. (totally speculating here..) but i am confident i will never hit or beat or fuck with my kids heads, that i will find an alternative that is just as or more effective.

your examples of friends is pretty much exactly what i was trying to say, in my exagerrated, incomprehensible manner:

it is completely understandable that parents can't (and as i said shouldn't really) control every move their kid makes. I was trying to say, if a parent is incapable of COMPLETELY institutionalising the type of punishment jenny said is good, then the kids are going to have no sense of respect, and no respect for authority in particular... If you give them a light hit (again, i'm not saying belt them etc), but give them a clear punishment they cannot fail to understand, is it altogether bad?

its better than the parent who creates a monster because they're physically or mentally unable to carry out the intense liberal punishment method--

sounds like you have really cool kids, and have a really good idea, and ability to get through to them, and its great you don't have to hit them, or use physical punishments, but i don't think its necessarily a bad thing, for kids who fail to adhere to the lighter side of the law

quote:

Originally posted by EgosXII that's pretty much the point

If I'm understanding you correctly, you're trying to make the case for spanking by saying that it doesn't necessarily constitute other forms of neglect or maltreatment and should therefor be excluded as a cause for harm.












Which is kind of like saying that garlic kept in olive oil isn't the only condition in which anaerobic botulism reproduces and it should therefore be excluded as a cause of anaerobic botulism.

So you think it's ok to abuse a person's basic human rights? Why do you think it's ok to hit children?

Because it makes us laugh when sig'd.

quote:

Originally posted by wienerschnitzel i will find an alternative that is just as or more effective.

Tell that, if they don't behave, William Ashley is going to lecture them about the importance of <insert random topic here>.

Bonus points if you convince them Bill is Jesus.

quote:

Originally posted by Miss Pie Parenting is measured by the outcomes of the child. A well-behaved, well-adjusted child with a high sense of self-esteem who respects his or herself and others is usually a strong indicator of good parenting. An ill-behaved, poorly adjusted child with low self-esteem who respects neither his or herself or others is usually a strong indicator of bad parenting. You're telling me that you can't tell the difference between a good and bad parent?

so its measured by the OUTCOME?

in that case its a hindsight judgement which would have no bearing on the act of parenting.

what does well-behaved and well-adjusted mean? is that like, have a job, a good wage?

I'm telling you its not as simple as labelling individual people, or couples, in individual situations as good or bad. all parents and all kids are different, all homes and schools are different: Don't you think its drastically minimising to claim there are good and bad parents, and parenting methods when there are no situations which are the same? don't you think its a bit more complicated than saying 'never hit your child', when all kids are going to handle different punishments, and different situations differently? Don't you think different crimes deserve different punishments?

and finally, for the 5th time: do kids have the same conscious capabilities as adults? should they receive the same, or different treatment as adults?

quote:

Originally posted by Miss Pie So you think it's ok to abuse a person's basic human rights? Why do you think it's ok to hit children?

there is no consensus on human rights, what charter are you referring to?

if you're talking legally, the state has the ability to override individuals rights when they break the law.

extending this to a home, parents have the right to override a childs rights when they break the law.

if you're talking morally, there is no consensus at all, moral rights are created and passed on from parent to child: When moral rights are broken people must deal with the ramifications.

i've said a number of times: I think its something that is easily understood. If children do not have the same level of understanding as adults, whose to say they have the mental capability of understanding overly intricate punishment methods?? Especially if you include (as i have), the possibility of a parent who is not capable of maintaining the 100% succes rate of punishment for crimes commited by the child.

if they're bad, and you give them a light spank, they know they did wrong.
if they're bad and you don't go thru ur punishment method every single time (like wiener pointed out), the kid will never respect you, and think they can get away with anything.

I don't think it's ok to hit anyone, for any reason, ever. Are you some kind of troglodyte?

quote:

Originally posted by EgosXII there is no consensus on human rights, what charter are you referring to?

The Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child.

i'm not terribly opposed to a light smack on the ass etc.. but i think it would be confusing for a young child. They learn to trust you, and then you hit them (even lightly) it kind of takes that trust away.. and that hurts them more mentally then physically. My parents tried to hit me too, and it didn't do anything but break a few kitchen utensils and turn my ass a rosy shade. The thing that got to me the most was my dad talking to me about things and explaining the consequences of poor choices.

i agree giving them a light smack here and there is definitely less harmless then empty threats, spoiling and no discipline. But that's pretty much the same conclusion i came to reading jenny's posts.

i do put all my needs second to my kids, it's a grueling task.. and really tiring but i know it will pay off. You can't turn the clock and fix the mistakes you made with your kids when they were young. I know i've done well.. my kids are proof.

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