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I don't think so, but it was longer that 6 years ago that I heard the story.

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Originally posted by EddieZilker I've actually heard a number of stories on NPR about how people are programming computers to be able to author music and actually emulate certain styles. One of the stories talked about a computer which functioned as the club DJ while clubbers were given buttons to press to indicate if they liked or disliked whatever the computer was playing. By process of elimination the computer would adjust whatever it was adding or taking out to satisfy the crowd. I'm not certain how well it worked, but the important thing to remember is that both the producer and the DJ were replaced by a bunch of button pushers and a computer.

http://www.monolake.de/installations/cyclone.html

not the same, but if you would probably interested by something like this.

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Originally posted by Zyklon_Jay http://www.monolake.de/installations/cyclone.html not the same, but if you would probably interested by something like this.

That's actually pretty cool. It looks like he's done a number of such installations. Beatflux actually started a thread about a new plug-in he developed for Ableton, that sounds consistent with the palette in Cyclone. To be honest, it has me considering adding Ableton, even though I don't really need another DAW.

[[ LINK REMOVED ]]


I also remember you talking about him, in this thread:

http://www.tranceaddict.com/forum/s...94&referrerid=2

I just listened to the MP3. While I wish I could get a little more definition and texture in my sound-design, it sort of reminds me of this:

Deep Eddie Zilker - Synesthesia - 320 by EddieZilker

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Originally posted by clay ok it was a joke, but as spotify isnt in US yet you didnt get it maybe. spotify is an awesome streaming program, kinda like youtube but with much better interface and quality, monthly payment and the solution to piracy basically. the only downside is that it ends up like many have discovered a while back using youtube on a party: everyone is gonna have a word and it ends up being the worst night ever. i have yet to complete a spotify evening without anyone requesting (and get their wish come true) some 90s dance like aqua or 2brotheronthe4floor, spicegirls, powerbalads of the 80s and generally all the pile of shit music this planet has produced. my point is that computer you talk about would have been shit, even if the interface and program was perfect because nothing can be better than the weakest part in the chain, and as you know humans in general are pretty fucking weak.

That sounds awful, but also explains the human nature behind why Sanjaya Malakar was consistently kept on American Idle. I told a friend of mine about it, who predicted that the crowd would select nothing but builds and breaks the entire time.

Yeah, Robert Henke is always at the forefront in terms of trying to bring this type of music to the audience in deifferent ways.

I was lucky enough to catch this at Mutek a few years back:

http://monolake.de/concerts/atom.html

Would i like to go to events like this every week? nope.

I am certainly glad that i got to experience it, because it was something different. Outside of technology/music festivals along the lines of Mutek this won't work for the average run of the mill clubber because thay want to dance. Sound design fans are not enough to keep clubs full week in and week out.

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Originally posted by Beatflux The only essential DJ skill is playing tracks people want to hear. Everything else is non-essential.

At a Top 40 meat market club, perhaps. But going by the demands of that crowd, everything is "non-essential" apart from cheap drinks and contraceptives.

The job of any DJ is to improve the music. They exist and have become the cornerstone of this scene for a reason, because they are the best way to get people dancing for six hours non-stop. If you don't understand the importance of the DJ, you will go nowhere in dance music, ever. And you haven't gone anywhere, of course. Not even to a club, by the sounds of it.

quote:

Originally posted by SYSTEM-J At a Top 40 meat market club, perhaps. But going by the demands of that crowd, everything is "non-essential" apart from cheap drinks and contraceptives. The job of any DJ is to improve the music. They exist and have become the cornerstone of this scene for a reason, because they are the best way to get people dancing for six hours non-stop. If you don't understand the importance of the DJ, you will go nowhere in dance music, ever. And you haven't gone anywhere, of course. Not even to a club, by the sounds of it.

I do not believe so. It's already extremely difficult to create a great track with no time limit, its going to be next to impossible for a DJ on the fly to make a good track great. If you think you can do it, then you should probably be producing and making a name for yourself with your own tracks. I have heard Bad Boy Bill do a really nice scratch remix of Satisfaction for a radio station mix on Youtube, but most of his "scratch remixes" do not really enhance a track. The scratching could have been solely on the fly, but I'm guessing that he practiced the whole set before hand.

DJs trying to make mash ups and creating on the fly remixes are usually completely destroying the original effort of the producer.

How can a DJ improve the sound of a track? I don't see how they can effectively do it.

DJs who take on a multifaceted role such as special FX guy or promoter, marketable personality are much more valuable.

The DJ became this type of worshipping idiot partly because people attribute DJs to actually making the tracks they play. I have seen DJs create mixtapes with their DJ name as the artist name for tracks they obviously did not produce. The big names usually produce and I think the fandom, although possibily misattributed to DJing, is more appropriate because they created the tracks that people care for.

A good DJ is important, but he's only one leg of the bar stool. Some events its all about DJ worship, others its about interacting with people, and others its about the dancers. When you have good music, cool people, and good dancing it can be a kick ass event.

* slams head on computer desk until frontal lobe partly disconnects from surrounding tissue *

That helps.

the dj doesn't make the party, the people do...that being said the dj is there to provide the ultimate backdrop and push them into the right direction using experience and skill.

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Originally posted by Beatflux How can a DJ improve the sound of a track? I don't see how they can effectively do it.

A track on its own is just seven minutes of self-contained music. It rises, it falls, it does its own little thing in its own time-span and that's it. To create a party, you need to play multiple tracks, one after the other so a sustained mood or effect is created.Even at a Top 40 club where a DJ does no mixing and has no technical skills, he does not play tracks at random. He selects party songs that will get a good reaction, and he speeds it up and slows it down. There is a truism amongst DJs that playing one wedding disco gig of pop music will teach you more about DJing than a hundred hours spent practising alone in your bedroom. That's why, even at a Top 40 meat market where none of the crowd could spot a beatmix or care about smooth mixing, the clubs still have human DJs instead of putting on a chart compilation. Programming is essential to every good party in every nightclub, ever.

The basic principle of good DJing is playing a track at the right moment in the set and in the night to optimise its effect, relative to what's already been played, what the crowd have responded to and what will come next. It's all about context. Beatmatching, phrase-matching, harmonic mixing and the rest are the tools that elide self-contained musical moments into the larger picture that is the party.

i love spamming, the only reason i post this set is because it is as close to trance as i get (aka not even close) and most of it is 3 decks. It isn't perfect, but such is life when you live on the fly.

Le Freak - Meet The Wangs by Le Freak

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Originally posted by SYSTEM-J The Producers section of TA is a very frustrating place to me. It's full of people I disagree constantly with, rife with musical conservatism and lethargic posters who don't go clubbing, don't keep up with contemporary music and don't finish their work. If half these guys posted the same stuff in MD they'd be chewed up and spat out in no time.

Something to bare in mind is that some of us never or rarely post a finished work because that proportion of tracks good enough to finish end up getting signed and many a label will not want it therefore pimped about.

I know from my experience a work can be kinda lame, but come the time of actualy finishing it, that last dint of effort takes it from an ok track to a proper finished article of a different quality and vibe.

I like to bounce newish ideas in TA to see what sort of reaction they get. I hear this cry of 'just be true and make what you like' but that is only half the story for me - I don't want to put out pointless naval gazing 'art' that only me and my Mom like. Afterall we keep saying there is too much shite out here, so I prefer on some works to get a sounding, as us producers tend to like the smell of our own shitE so it's useful to get a reality check.

For my part I'm always thinking there is much better to come and everything thus far made by me is only so so.

One theme I notice all the time cropping up is producers who have a good deal of what we might call traditional musical skill - they can play lovely melodies and so on, but I have to say nin a world stuffed full of centuries of melody and crafted musicianship I am never going to be top of the hill in that dept', and nor would I want to be as there are a million orchestra players who could do better on that front.
To be crystal clear this is not a comment to demean those more melodically inclined, but just to say I hear too much dissing of lets say beat / tech based output, when in fact all forms of output can be valid and reach out and touch people wwhether or not they contain a complex and skilful melodic component. Too often I hear people equating 'traditional' musical skill with quality.

So when we say there's too much shit out there, we should be mindful that one mans dreary shit is anothers pounding chest puncher.

I heard a chap recently with equisite melodic and playing skill, but I found myself thinking, mm you could hear this in any pub in any town, or even in a motel lounge or underground subway corridor - sure it's skilful, but it's also omnipresent and essentialy completely common place so apart from being pleasant, does not really bring anything to the party.

Also what's wrong with making EDM for a different audience than "clubbing / party people" I wolud not underestimate the people who just like good grooves, on their ipod, on their home cinema system, in the car. also people way older than 30.

For my music i don't care if it gets played in clubs or not, i try to bring over a feeling and as long as others feel it too, i am happy. I would even say that the more serious listeners are the ones listening at home.

quote:

Originally posted by Raphie Also what's wrong with making EDM for a different audience than "clubbing / party people" I wolud not underestimate the people who just like good grooves, on their ipod, on their home cinema system, in the car. also people way older than 30.

Hey that's a very important observation. You reminded me that my Dad (in late 50's) surprised me recently when I found he had a load of dance complilations for his car.

Yeah and my mum listens to lady gaga. Does that mean I should produce like lady gaga?

These threads are explaining why this forum is full of derivative, soulless rubbish I'm afraid. Dance music is about dance floors - the first sign of the death of a genre is when people sit down to listen to it IMO. I think rock music died when people started sitting down to listen to the stones/beatles/Clapton. I went to a concert and that was when it died for me.

Music is there to fulfil a basic human ritual; the dancing/mating/socialising/intoxication ritual that you see in every culture since the dawn of time. If dance music falls away from its context within that ritual, it loses what makes it special and dies IMO.

A lot of you are talking about beatless, more chilled tracks, and I agree that they're a central part of dance music. But you're all missing that, even though they aren't conventional dance music fodder, they ARE still aimed at, and informed by the dancefloor. Chilled tracks like this, are perfect dancefloor material, and I play them often.



I'm out for the moment, I'm finding the whole experience of these threads depressing. I'll close by just saying that dance music may not be the best music, but the best music makes you dance, and therefore is always linked to the dancefloor.

PS
Despite my negative tone, these threads are a lot more worthwhile and informative, and even *gasp*, interesting, than most that have been on here for a while. Stimulating mature debate is always good IMO, even if it does wind up a bit depressing occasionally.

Kit, IMHO I think your wrong, a good groove is a good groove, all good grooves did arrise in a studio, a prerequisite to be played on the dancefloor. If a song is good, people will dance to it and it will be played, even if this song reached the dancefloor via mass media. Not everything needs to be underground in order to be a good song. Maybe your just in your adolesence phase, which shows by rejecting anything mainstream by default, but that will go and perspective will change and you as well will appreciate Gaga

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Originally posted by Raphie Kit, IMHO I think your wrong, a good groove is a good groove, all good grooves did arrise in a studio, a prerequisite to be played on the dancefloor. If a song is good, people will dance to it and it will be played, even if this song reached the dancefloor via mass media. Not everything needs to be underground in order to be a good song. Maybe your just in your adolesence phase, which shows by rejecting anything mainstream by default, but that will go and perspective will change and you as well will appreciate Gaga

All good grooves arise in a studio? false.

A prerequisite to be played in clubs? false.

you DAW cowboys seem to forget that live music made people dance way before studio made tracks did. Live music still makes people dance, you know, the ones made by actual musicians that can play something or sing?

Please don't go there, we're talking EDM here, not blues, folk or rock.

quote:

Originally posted by Raphie Kit, IMHO I think your wrong, a good groove is a good groove, all good grooves did arrise in a studio, a prerequisite to be played on the dancefloor. If a song is good, people will dance to it and it will be played, even if this song reached the dancefloor via mass media. Not everything needs to be underground in order to be a good song. Maybe your just in your adolesence phase, which shows by rejecting anything mainstream by default, but that will go and perspective will change and you as well will appreciate Gaga

quote:

Originally posted by Zyklon_Jay All good grooves arise in a studio? false. A prerequisite to be played in clubs? false. you DAW cowboys seem to forget that live music made people dance way before studio made tracks did. Live music still makes people dance, you know, the ones made by actual musicians that can play something or sing?

quote:

Originally posted by Raphie Please don't go there, we're talking EDM here, not blues, folk or rock.

I'm not picking on you two but I can see how this can degenerate into a fruitless pissing contest faster than you can say, "Ableton rules, DJ's drool."

Jay's point practically dove-tails with what Kit was saying about dance music and it's true. Aboriginal people weren't collected in a circle, hitting the play button on an Akai MPC-60, and Capoeira wasn't contrived to a DJ switching between tribal house records.

I'm sure, Raphie, you know perfectly well that dance rhythms have been around, long before people began relegating them to a 4/4 time-signature and you probably don't need to be reminded of that. Your statement, taken out of context however, could be construed to imply that dance music begins and ends, in the DAW. The fact is that such a claim, whether you meant it or not, seems to be rendered through a lens of infallibility; that would dictate, since rhythm can be established in a DAW, all material sequenced for dance has a functional groove.

It's also clear that you were pointing to the fact that mainstream music, produced in a studio, can be just as groovy as whatever underground music exists in circulation and that your point about the studio stands, pertinent to that. The history of groove still prevails, that any groove produced in the studio has its origins in cadences performed live, long before it.

have you ever heard of something called disco?

you said all grooves, not edm, and guess what there are live musicians that play alongside djs all of the time.

call ghosthunters bud, you've been debunked.

Eddie, your right! ZJ, make this as wide as you want and let's go back to the tribes. ofcourse we ofspring from ancient rythms from tribal to indian percussion and whatever before that, but guess what, people currently don't make a campfire in the middle of a dancefloor, ritual slaughter a goat and share drinking blood from it's skull. while making syncopated movements, currently people dance to music that has been recorded/produced in a studio and drink GHB. period!

If you want to suddenly broaden the scope of the discussion? fine. This topic is not about winning, or owning, it's about perspective.
so yes, we had disco, we had blues before that, renesaince crap, mideval crap, for what it's worth Adam and Eve were probably hitting sticks against a tree as well..... geat real, read the OP, rethink the scope and your answers.

True... everything has been said

quote:

Originally posted by clay Give me an "F" Give me an "A" Give me an "I" Give me an "L" What does that spell?

fixed.






Wait! No, I mean fail.

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Originally posted by EddieZilker I think the complaint, where money is concerned in conjunction with the current system, is that you have a lot of artist generating a product, for a few labels, which is sold, earning a great deal of money that is disbursed disproportionately. Turning it into a popularity contest where producers fight for their reputation, while removing a cash incentive, and you have the premise for a pointless reality TV show.

Why pointless? Doing something good for the world is not pointless, by making art you entertain people, and by entertaining people you do something good for the world.

Personally I think that is rewarding enough, I believe the cash incentive got so over-rated that people can't imagine music without money now.

Cash is ruining the EDM scene, besides you said it..the system is mind-raping the artists so much that its kinda inevitable anyways.

I see you guys are discussing something else though, so I'm just going to take a few steps back

quote:

Originally posted by hootsh Why pointless? Doing something good for the world is not pointless, by making art you entertain people, and by entertaining people you do something good for the world. Personally I think that is rewarding enough, I believe the cash incentive got so over-rated that people can't imagine music without money now. Cash is ruining the EDM scene, besides you said it..the system is mind-raping the artists so much that its kinda inevitable anyways. I see you guys are discussing something else though, so I'm just going to take a few steps back

I think it was your phrasing, to the effect of producers competing against one another, in a popularity contest, for relatively little reward. I got a little cheeky with my reply, but my understanding of what you posted indicated you wanted to keep everything in place, except for the money.

"The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side."

~Hunter S. Thompson

There's not much point to it if you take the money out, leaving the rest of the system, in place.

quote:

Originally posted by kitphillips Dance music is about dance floors - the first sign of the death of a genre is when people sit down to listen to it IMO. Music is there to fulfil a basic human ritual; the dancing/mating/socialising/intoxication ritual that you see in every culture since the dawn of time.

Kit, of course dance music is not just for dance floors.

People dance / move wherever they feel the urge, be that the campfire or the driving seat. I've had some of my most intense dance music experiences in a car, or indeed sitting in my office.

Your argument is akin to those that say I should not enjoy egg fried rice for breakfast, but I damned well do.

Forgive the punn but people in any sphere of Human endeavour get oh so tribal and protective and ALWAYS think the new scene is worse than the old, as I will explain.

Reading these threads is EXACTLY like reading back on arguments people had in the early 60's when some argued rock music was dying, and then exactly like those that said early 70's proggy stuff had killed off rock (again), rinse and repeat ad - infinitum.
Go back to 1955 and the old guard were saying this new rock sound was a betrayal of classic blues and other scenes.

Artists have always always said the recording and distribution industry is making things worse - god I've seen so many documentaries showing exactly this - artists bemoaning the indusrty and where it is going, all the way back to the 1950's. Right now some of you are merely repeating this age old pattern of bemoaning a current scene, yet right now teenagers will be being brain imprinted to the effect the CURRENT scene will be seen as best of breed by them in 15 years time.

Every decade people within a genre say the music business has killed off all things good. Punk was revilled by prog rockers, then after a few years those in punk said the scene was not what it was, yet go forward 10 years and people look back fondly to the exact same period saying how much better it was than 'now', rinse / repeat / rinse / repeat.

In 20m years a proportion of people in EDM will be saying the scene is worse than it was 10 / 15 years before, rinse repeat, rinse repeat.

People tend to think new ways of doing things are often worse than old ways, but really they are just pawns of Darwinian survival imperatives - organisms tend to stick with what they first found to work and resist change. Thier brains at impressionable moments of development are branded with immovable imprints which become the bedrock of thier world view, hence why often we look back to our teens as a time when music and films were better - in our teens there are key moements when our brains are briefly open to those searing new imprints. At those moments the current scene will be imprinted as good, EVEN THOUGH OLDER FOLK WILL BE SAYING THAT SCENE WAS BETTER 10 YEARS AGO, rinse repeat.

I could take you to many a forum right now whether it be martial arts or painting and guess what, you will see people bemoaning the new scene, and longingly looking back to the great years of a decade ago.


DJ's have not killed the scene, apparantly good and bad things are always happening. Don't you see that in 15 years some will hark back to the golden age of 2011? THEY REALLY HONESTLY WILL - so can you not see this is just a Human construct, a fantom not to be taken too seriuosly. Every generation will always and forever have it's people that say the scene of 'now' is worse that the scene of 10 years ago - tis Human nature.

Go back and read Victorian newspapers - people saying things have gotten worse in EVERY sphere of Human endeavour at one time or another.

I RECALL SO MANY MUSCISCIANS IN THE 1980'S SAYING THE INDUSTRY WAS GETTING MUCH WORSE DUE TO NEW FANGLED ELECTRONIC INSTRUMENTS - INDEED THEY WERE CAMPAIGN GROUPS AGAINST THE SYNTH - again people just fear the new ways.

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