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-- Do illegal downloads mean lower revenue/royalties for the artists?
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quote:

Originally posted by derail How do you propose that illegal downloading be "negated", while still allowing people to connect with each other (such as via emails)? How would a new "hard medium" such as vinyl prevent people from recording it and turning it into digital versions?

That's the point. A hard medium might mitigate some of the loss, but it's indeed a quixotic undertaking to attempt to make pirating impossible. It was more of a hypothetical proposal which answers the question as to whether or not illegal downloads hurt artist's revenues.

quote:

Originally posted by EddieZilker That's the point. A hard medium might mitigate some of the loss, but it's indeed a quixotic undertaking to attempt to make pirating impossible. It was more of a hypothetical proposal which answers the question as to whether or not illegal downloads hurt artist's revenues.

But there actually is a way to virtually kill of piracy, at least for the masses and in that respect limit losses to a just few ardent and super technical consumers - follow what the satellite TV industry did:

Anyone who has done any FTA (free to air) "testing" for Nagra3 knows what I'm talking about

It requires a combination of a few different measures. The first being to implement a type of encryption on the media, especially one that requires a regular update to make it continue to work. The next thing you do is go after manufacturers of software and hardware that bypasses it. Even if you can't convict, you can tie them up in court so hard they go bust. Then combine that with a few very high profile and well publicised arrests for coding teams (killing a monkey to scare the chickens). Then finally, work with ISP's to send threat letters to those consumers suspected of using measures to bypass encyption (i.e via group keysharing etc) and to those forums which even so much as mention anything about circumventing the technology.

The end result is a massive drop in piracy at least for as the average consumer.

It has worked with satellite technology, to the point that the vast majority of people have given up trying to get get free TV.

I know music files are not the same thing, as they are single media files (not a stream) but all it would take is to get the industry aligned as such (and it's already happening with spotify et al), and frankly there's huge incentives to do so; it only costs a fraction of the potential lost revenue to implement this system and everyhting that goes with it.

@ RANN: That sounds like more layers of DRM, something which seems like more of a problem than a solution. It's just a shame, however, that it's coming to that, as there seems to be some (nominal?) sacrifice in quality as well as portability. But correct me if I'm wrong on my understanding of what you're proposing.

to me the whole piracy thing is a dead issue. nothing can be done about it, so move on and find new ways to make money from music.

look at someone like Pretty Lights who gives away all of his music for free...he's one of the biggest electronic music acts in the USA.

a much bigger issue and one of my BIGGEST PET PEEVES is the whole performance rights royalties racket that has been going on for years. clubs are paying huge blanket licensing fees for the music in their clubs and all that money is going to Lady Gaga and Katy Perry (ASCAP and BMI pay all PRO royalities to only the top 10 or so grossing touring artist acts bc previously its been hard to account playlists) when the technology exists now to accurately ID and account for every track ever played in a club and pay out the artists whose tracks are being played systematically with no real extra costs. DJ Monitor (http://www.djmonitor.com) is one such technology (think Shazam on steroids with GPS capability) and also DJs can use Pioneer Rekordbox to keep playlist histories and submit them to publishers etc.

don't mean to change topics but to me this never really gets the attention it deserves and it could be the answer to a lot of the finance problems and bitching about piracy in the electronic dance music industry.

It's times like this I'm glad that I realize my hobby needs not be stressful. I make a very good living doing what I do and knock on wood don't have to stress about where the next paycheck is coming from.

I feel bad for true talent like JOOF or even BT that gets overlooked in favor of Jesus van Boring. True that BT is craaaazy talented and can do soundtrack work -- plus he's hooked up in the industry. I am just surprised when he releases rock-type of pop crap or drops to lowest common denominator with stuff like Jericho.

BTW, about "image" - look at that crazy Gaga bitch. Gotta give her props - keeps her image in constant spotlight and in words of Boiler Room: ABC - ALWAYS BE CLOSING (sales).

She's a marketing genius, all else aside.

As far as Blewmen (sorry Robby) - I'm glad I'm not alone in pointing out how disposably cheesy his kiddie trance is. Him, Kandy, Arnej, few other purveyors of pungent gouda make me cringe every time I hear their shit.

Speaking of piracy - downloaded entire Coldharbour catalog few days ago - only ended up keeping less than 10 tracks out of 104+ releases. Those were bought in WAV through beatport.

Oh, and one last thing - WHAT THE FUCK IS WITH "RESTRICTED" ON BEATPORT? I want to LEGALLY obtain a track - but I can't. because BEATPORT DECIDED SO. You know what? Fuck that shit. If I can't buy it legally, I'll download it. Thanks for completely missing the fucking point, Shitport!

quote:

Originally posted by aNYthing Oh, and one last thing - WHAT THE FUCK IS WITH "RESTRICTED" ON BEATPORT? I want to LEGALLY obtain a track - but I can't. because BEATPORT DECIDED SO.

It's not Beatport who decided so, it's the labels.

Basically a label in France (for example) might decide they don't have the presence to promote a release in the US (for example) and so might decide to licence a track to a label based in the US who can promote and distribute it locally.

It then wouldn't be fair if a label in France still got all of the sales revenue, when the US-based label has done all the groundwork.

The problem comes when the label in the US decides to delay its release of the record to fit in with its other releases (not to compete with itself, etc), to fit in with their supply chain, etc, so the record comes out on different dates in different countries. And as a result if you're in the US, you see the record listed by the French label and you can't buy it.

If the labels could release the records at the same time in every country, it would be fine, but sometimes there can be months between. It's all down to bad planning if you ask me!

This system is a bit outdated tbh, as now so much promotion is done online - and anyone can do that anywhere.

The Dutch ascap equivalent buma-stemra has been turned upside down a few days ago. Members have the right to vote for certain items. A lot of buma stemra members are angry about their lack of insight. It's a money black box. They get like 200 million from youtube and noone has ever seen a penny thus far. Not even dutch music videos receiving millions of views. There are established fees for airplay, never seen anything of it either. Never had royalties for digital downloads other than from dutch companies while it is said buma stemra works internationally.

Music industry is pretty much fucked on all levels heh.

quote:

Originally posted by Blake_Jarrell a much bigger issue and one of my BIGGEST PET PEEVES is the whole performance rights royalties racket that has been going on for years. clubs are paying huge blanket licensing fees for the music in their clubs and all that money is going to Lady Gaga and Katy Perry (ASCAP and BMI pay all PRO royalities to only the top 10 or so grossing touring artist acts bc previously its been hard to account playlists) when the technology exists now to accurately ID and account for every track ever played in a club and pay out the artists whose tracks are being played systematically with no real extra costs. DJ Monitor (http://www.djmonitor.com) is one such technology (think Shazam on steroids with GPS capability) and also DJs can use Pioneer Rekordbox to keep playlist histories and submit them to publishers etc. don't mean to change topics but to me this never really gets the attention it deserves and it could be the answer to a lot of the finance problems and bitching about piracy in the electronic dance music industry.

Couldn't agree more.

In the UK, if a DJ submits a tracklist to the venue they have to send it on to the PRS / PPL (our performance rights licensing groups). Do they fuck. A LOT of licensing money is paid to these companies and it all just gets split between the big labels.

Admittedly as Top 40-style clubs make up a decent chunk of the nightclub licence payers, that's not such a ridculous thing, but the amount paid out for underground nights which clearly never goes near the artists and labels behind the music is still significant.

Nightclubs in the UK pay �87 per 1000 people through the door, so a 1000-cap venue should generate royalties of ~ �1 for each record played in a night (minus a bit for the licensing companies to hang onto).

If you get radio plays it's worth registering with the relevant society though - all radio stations have to submit tracklists and those get used to dish out royalties. This includes Mixcloud...

quote:

Originally posted by Storyteller Music industry is pretty much fucked on all levels heh.

Here's the point as far as I'm concerned;

In any artistic realm only a minority of participants will make some money, period. We just have to accept this truism.
If you are a writer or scupltor, just like in music, there is an army of participants and most will go hungry.

Same for film makers or comedians.

In a way I don't know why everyone whinges, no one is entitled to earn a penny, you either play the game and by dint of effort and luck get to the top, or like all those painters and writers out there, you just enjoy your craft and don't expect anything in return.

People bemoan labels, so my answer is if you think you have the answers and can do it better, go on then, do it.
I'd bet most idealistic people starting a label would soon come to act in just the same manner as established lables do - you would have a picture of your kids on your desk who need the money, need those school fees, want that ski trip and I'm afraid you would succumb to thier needs at the expense of your artists. Maybe the odd moral Saint would not succumb, but most would when all said and done.

So my message is make the very best tracks you can and keep your fingers crossed and just enjoy the ride. You dont feel sorry for struggling writers that never make a dime, so don't imagine for a second that producers are somehow entitled to some cash action.

There

+1 on the ASCAP/APRA bullshit.

quote:

Originally posted by DJ RANN But there actually is a way to virtually kill of piracy, at least for the masses and in that respect limit losses to a just few ardent and super technical consumers - follow what the satellite TV industry did: Anyone who has done any FTA (free to air) "testing" for Nagra3 knows what I'm talking about It requires a combination of a few different measures. The first being to implement a type of encryption on the media, especially one that requires a regular update to make it continue to work. The next thing you do is go after manufacturers of software and hardware that bypasses it. Even if you can't convict, you can tie them up in court so hard they go bust. Then combine that with a few very high profile and well publicised arrests for coding teams (killing a monkey to scare the chickens). Then finally, work with ISP's to send threat letters to those consumers suspected of using measures to bypass encyption (i.e via group keysharing etc) and to those forums which even so much as mention anything about circumventing the technology. The end result is a massive drop in piracy at least for as the average consumer. It has worked with satellite technology, to the point that the vast majority of people have given up trying to get get free TV. I know music files are not the same thing, as they are single media files (not a stream) but all it would take is to get the industry aligned as such (and it's already happening with spotify et al), and frankly there's huge incentives to do so; it only costs a fraction of the potential lost revenue to implement this system and everyhting that goes with it.

Yeah but look at what happened when they tried that with DVD... DVD is a more comparable medium to music IMO, since DVDs aren't a stream and are discrete works, picked by the consumer.

I don't think DRM will ever be the answer, you'll only scare away those who would have bought the product. People are getting a lot more clever about using the internet for shit like this now, my 14 year old brother was talking about shit I'd never even heard of in the way of anonimity techniques, and he's not even vaguely into technology.

The solution is to make music cheaper, better value and more accesible. The fact is that its still easier to search google for the tracks you want and then illegally download them than it is to get on beatport and try to navigate its clunky and outdated flash system.

How The Music Industry Is Killing Music And Blaming The Fans

quote:

Originally posted by kitphillips The solution is to make music cheaper, better value and more accesible. The fact is that its still easier to search google for the tracks you want and then illegally download them than it is to get on beatport and try to navigate its clunky and outdated flash system.

A good point.
I feel there is a gap in the market for a simple selling platform. Simplicity is so vital in a bsuy life, but 99% of IT developers get it wrong time and time again. I know it can be done because I designed my own work site and the IT bods were utterly clueless in terms of keeping things functional and simple and they forgot the basics of what it is and end user truly wants.

Little things like remaining logged in no matter what computer I'm using. I hate the fact I have to re log - in if I'm using home PC instead of work to access Beatport.

quote:

Originally posted by Storyteller How The Music Industry Is Killing Music And Blaming The Fans

brilliant article.

quote:

Originally posted by Storyteller How The Music Industry Is Killing Music And Blaming The Fans

I like this comment on there from a supposed record company indsider, and really I agree with him on the notion that the public support and buy what is easily accesible to them, so it's obvious most dance producers will fail to be commercial as they are often producing for themselves (fair enough) and to be artistically in tact as it were, rather than producing what the public wants (imagine a restaurant where the chef made the food he likes rather than responded to customers desires);



You well know that for the past 25 years I have worked directly with artists, spent the majority of my working life within independent labels and now I work for a major record company so I'll certainly entertain the argument that I'm only interested in defending my position. But ultimately to the non-pop artist a record company is of less importance to them than at any other time. There are more, open and accessible income streams available than there has ever been previously and their music can be discussed, supported and celebrated in more areas than ever before. It's not all a misery fella!

I know that coming out against Bill Hicks is a crime slightly above child abuse but the argument about society consuming only what is fed is patronising. The simplest most unsophisticated forms of culture are the 'largest' across the globe in music, in film, TV, art and literature. Sorry, but the public don't want Faust. They want Jedward. Let them have it I say. It's not like the alternative is hidden.

Cheers,

quote:

Originally posted by MSZ brilliant article.

Agreed. The author nailed the issues in this industry on so many levels.

btw its pretty much impossible to stop fileshare sites, its pretty bs. it takes a day or two to for them to process the copyright claim, when the re-upload and google search-ability is instant, by then 2-3, more fileshare sites have them up.

it should be reinforced that any disputes whatsoever, the file should be removed instantly as well, but oh well. cant stop torrents or piracy anyway.

there was this funny act being talked about in the USA which had a ton of financial backing, found an article here; but i believe it infringes on some rights. I believe this would make soundcloud illegal.

-new-us-anti-piracy-bill-will-kill-the-internet

quote:

This bill greatly increases the government�s power to go after alleged copyright infringers, that is something people should be very worried about. But it will also allow private copyright holders to use some of the same tools as the Government does to stop copyright enforcement and intellectual property protection. Can you image a world where News Corp has the same power as the government to go after "dangerous" copyright infringers? Government and copyright holders will be able to shut you down without due process. I hope you don�t have a website that shares controversial information or anything like that. Because if this new bill is passed there won�t be very much stopping the government from claiming that you need to be shut down for the good of our national security. And of course, nowhere in the bill does it mention any of the constitutional issues that come with granting government and Big Media power to police the Internet.

See my sig, it sums up the topic, IMO.

Kind of on this topic... Nick Sentience recently released his own album called Syncronized where he cut out the middleman by selling the album himself. The album is only available through his website. I'm very curious to know how this has worked out for him.

quote:

Originally posted by Magnus Kind of on this topic... Nick Sentience recently released his own album called Syncronized where he cut out the middleman by selling the album himself. The album is only available through his website. I'm very curious to know how this has worked out for him.

according to the thread on trancefix, not that great in the beginning...

Doesn't surprise me at all. You can cut out as many middlemen as possible but you still need to sell on a significant part of the mp3 shops to get any kind of sales.

The market is already very fragmented as it is and you shouldn't be deluded by taking on the shops on your own. Little chance it will work unless you've got a very big name to start with. Nobody is looking for yet another place to get their music from. It just takes too much effort.

YOu know, the best thing you can do as a label is just putting in a DMCA request with the relevant sharing site for the file to be removed. Chances are, unless you're a really big artists, you'll only need to do it a couple of times per release.

Alternatively, upload a 128 kbps file, I get the impression that most people in the releases scene are lazy and won't re rip and upload a release which is already out in low quality.

[QUOTE][i][b]Originally posted by kitphillips [/i][/b] YOu know, the best thing you can do as a lab

quote:

Originally posted by Storyteller How The Music Industry Is Killing Music And Blaming The Fans

The irony of the video in the article being not avaliable in my country because of some crappy label is pretty good.

quote:

Originally posted by kitphillips Alternatively, upload a 128 kbps file, I get the impression that most people in the releases scene are lazy and won't re rip and upload a release which is already out in low quality.

That would be an interesting experiment. Although honestly a lot of try before buy listening people would probably be like "wow this track has a weak bassline" and not realise why so you might even lose sales.

Re: [QUOTE][i][b]Originally posted by kitphillips [/i][/b] YOu know, the best thing you can do as a

quote:

Originally posted by Darkarbiter Although honestly a lot of try before buy listening people would probably be like "wow this track has a weak bassline" and not realise why so you might even lose sales.

I don't agree with this line of thinking.

Some producers (that is, not average listeners) might think this, if they weren't aware of the effects of a 128kb/s mp3 on bass, but they'd be in the minority.

It's not like the bass disappears when listening on consumer level/ computer headphones. If it does, the original mix had some deficiencies. Listeners care much more about "is it a good song, do I enjoy listening to it?" A good song will sound good even if it's played on a very distorted AM radio station (obviously, to a certain degree).

But yes, unless the bassline disappears completely, I can't see this being an issue at all. Average listeners don't listen to music the way we listen to music.

And we're (hopefully) clever enough to realise the effect of 128 kbps MP3 encoding.

Re: Re: [QUOTE][i][b]Originally posted by kitphillips [/i][/b] YOu know, the best thing you can do

quote:

Originally posted by derail Average listeners don't listen to music the way we listen to music.

QUOTED FOR EMPHASIS

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