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Originally posted by Mattinsanity you see, the bible had absolutely nothing to do with christians becoming atheists. other christians are the reason. if all the ex-christians had loving and compassionate parents who weren't forceful about believing in God, they would still be christians. can't forget the gullible sunday school teacher who doesn't truly teach the essence of Jesus. The bible is impeccable in my opinion, so it had nothing to do with ex-christians who are now atheists.

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Originally posted by Mattinsanity ^ah my assessment on atheists might be wrong. here's a clip of one of the greatest ministers today:

If thats a great minister, i woudnt want to meet a terrible one...what am i saying, i have met terrible ones. Doesnt change the fact though, that that guy is still a self satisfying smug douche that should get punched in the face.

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Originally posted by Moongoose If thats a great minister, i woudnt want to meet a terrible one...what am i saying, i have met terrible ones. Doesnt change the fact though, that that guy is still a self satisfying smug douche that should get punched in the face.

the man in the clip drives a beat up car whose tires literally fall off. he also said he doesn't care about clothes - he would pick it out of a bin. yes there are terrible ministers. they drive rolls royces and lives a lavish lifestyle, and paul washer scorches them in his sermons - absolutely verbally tears them to shreds - in a legitimate manner. paul washer is the type of minister who ex-christians never had a chance to listen to, real talk.

What gets me frustrated about Religion and God is this protective shield we have given them. We are expected to respect people on their belief/faith which means science and facts can not apply. It�s funny that when it suits their purpose they attempt to use science as proof of Religion. It always ends up backfiring in their faces though, just like when they tried to push intelligent design in schools.

Yes, it is in your bible.

^that verse does seem ludicrous. I'll have to talk to theologians about that.

but if nick vujicic believes in Jesus, then he has to be real:

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Originally posted by Moongoose They deserve less respect if anything. At last the crazy people that actually believe and follow everything in there are properly commited to what they believe is gods word. In a way that sort of a detachment from reality deserves a certain kind of respect...then death by fire. People who pick and choose though...no respect. No commitment. THey take a supposed word of god, rip out what they think the omnipotent omniscient higher being got WRONG, and say, now this make sense, that other shit was clearly crazy but this makes sense, ill blindly believe in this. Yeah, not worthy of respect.

They deserve less respect because they don't take a book 100% down to each and every word written?

I actually think that what they are doing is very respectful, for one, they are more tolerant of other peoples beliefs. THAT right there shows they,have respect and thus should receive respect.

Most of these people I am speaking of believe in God but just not the way the sect says so 100%. They do have commitment to their own beliefs. The bottom line is you are on this side or that side.

What's wrong with them creating a reality that is not on either side?

I know as an Atheist I am right.
But, what these people are doing is stopping
Or atleast trying to stop this arguing over Religion that people just love to fight, instead they are like shoplifters borrowing bits and pieces of a said Religion to create thier own reality. I rather coexistence than fight or discuss the same old war.

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Originally posted by Mattinsanity the man in the clip drives a beat up car whose tires literally fall off. he also said he doesn't care about clothes - he would pick it out of a bin. yes there are terrible ministers. they drive rolls royces and lives a lavish lifestyle, and paul washer scorches them in his sermons - absolutely verbally tears them to shreds - in a legitimate manner. paul washer is the type of minister who ex-christians never had a chance to listen to, real talk.

I couldnt care less about the car he drives or the clothes he wears, thats not how i measure him, i only care about what he says. And what he says is incredibly condescending and his argument is migraine inducingly stupid and ignorant. Therefore, a self satisfied smug douche that should get punched in the face.

I guess they have Empathy for the Devil but this also means they do believe there is a so called God.

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Originally posted by Mattinsanity ^ah my assessment on atheists might be wrong. here's a clip of one of the greatest ministers today:

what a condescending douchebag

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Originally posted by Desiderata They deserve less respect because they don't take a book 100% down to each and every word written?

If they dont follow the book word for word, then they are wasting their time. When you work for a company, do you disregard the "policies" you dont like? Should you not get fired if anything? Its the same with religion... your suppose to follow it word for word or find something better to do!

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Originally posted by djshan If they dont follow the book word for word, then they are wasting their time. When you work for a company, do you disregard the "policies" you dont like? Should you not get fired if anything? Its the same with religion... your suppose to follow it word for word or find something better to do!

How can you compare the two. A company brings you income and you would be wise NOT to create static over a few loopholes in their policies.

Now, someone who makes a living of spouting a Religous book better take it literal!

But the only Religious book/Religion I have seen this modification in is the Bible with American people.

So, I now have to ask are you a Religious person?

Don't you think that they disregard the complete impossible nature that taking the Bibleword for word and pay more attention to the things they agree upon and spendingmore time focusing on those aspects a positive thing?

I suppose these people would have to be in your family and a couple close friends to understand. I don't 100% agree with them because I don't believe in the whole gig, however the people that I know, I enjoy that they kept there tradions and after studying it all made modifications.

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Originally posted by Desiderata They deserve less respect because they don't take a book 100% down to each and every word written?

Yes.

Dont forget its not just any book. Its the infallible word of god, full of rules that se set down for you to follow. Not set down so you can pick out those that you dont like and still feel good and smugh about yourself. Thats why in a way those who commit 100% to to it deserve more respect than those who do not. They fully embrace their insanity, the others just try to rationalise it.

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Originally posted by Moongoose Yes. Dont forget its not just any book. Its the infallible word of god, full of rules set down for you to follow. Not set down so you can pick out those that you dont like and still feel good and smug about yourself. Thats why in a way those who commit 100% to to it deserve more respect than those who do not.

Srsly. The believers here need to get with it. Your book contains flawless moral rules from the creator of the universe..



Plenty more fun stuff here

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Originally posted by srussell0018 If there's nothing wrong with hating religion than there's nothing wrong with religious people hating you.

I have to disagree with this statement. If I, as a Catholic, hate my fellow man then I'm being rather hypocritical, which most would consider "wrong."

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Originally posted by Moongoose Yes. Dont forget its not just any book. Its the infallible word of god, full of rules that se set down for you to follow. Not set down so you can pick out those that you dont like and still feel good and smugh about yourself. Thats why in a way those who commit 100% to to it deserve more respect than those who do not. They fully embrace their insanity, the others just try to rationalise it.

Hey, I didn't say they feel "smug" or should we coin the phase "Hollier than thou"

Bottom line, I'm not one of them. Nut
, compared to people who take the Bible so literally that they shut off all other people just because of a Religious aspect.

Also, look at it this way, maybe 10% of these people will turn Atheist and another 10% Agnostic.




If that makes you feel better.

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Originally posted by Moongoose Dont forget its not just any book. Its the infallible word of god, full of rules that se set down for you to follow.

Nigga please! I enjoy how people who are entirely anti-religious foist belief onto religious peole and then mock them for the beliefs they do not actually have. Very few people believe the bible to be the infallible word of god; even fewer churches teach that it is. Ask just about any minister/priest/clergy and they will openly admit that the bible was written by it's authors for specific audiences seeking to put forward specific beliefs and accomplish specific goals. This is why if you read two books containing the same story you will find the stories are different... because the authors were stressing different things. For example; Matthew identifies Jesus as being crucified the day of passover (the afternoon following the passover meal) whereas John states it happened on the day preceeding passover (the afternoon just prior to the passover meal) (remember the Hebrew day starts at sundown)... the reason for this is that John is trying to equate Jesus to the lambs that are sacraficed and eaten as part of the passover. This difference would have been deliberate on John's part; an attempt to convince Jews that Jesus' death replaces that passover and so too should Christianity replace Judiasm. When confronted with discrepencies like this it is not really possible to believe that every word of the bible is true. Moreover, when one consideres that there are no original copies of the books of the bible and that they have been edited and changed countless times it is folly to believe that every word is exactly as it was orignially written, even more ludicris to believe they are all the direct word of god (which of course it is not claimed to be). Indeed, very few believe the bible is the true and perfect word of god; rather, people who seek to attack religion prefer to argue that is what adherants believe because it's much easier to point to inconsistancies and say "ha, it's not perfect so your entire belief system is flawed" then it is to actually discern what people really believe and then find flaw with it then it is to find fault with a characture of one's belief. Is the bible absolutely true, perfect, and the word of god... hell no... does that mean it has zero value, of course not.

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Originally posted by Desiderata Hey, I didn't say they feel "smug" or should we coin the phase "Hollier than thou" Bottom line, I'm not one of them. But, compared to people who take the Bible so literally that they shut off all other people just because of a Religious aspect. Also, look at it this way, maybe 10% of these people will turn Atheist and another 10% Agnostic. If that makes you feel better.

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Originally posted by Moral Hazard I enjoy how people who are entirely anti-religious foist belief onto religious peole and then mock them for the beliefs they do not actually have.

At least thats not what Pat Condell does in this video. This is still about the right to make people offended.

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Originally posted by Znack At least thats not what Pat Condell does in this video. This is still about the right to make people offended.

I'll take your word for it, as I haven't bothered with the video, nor was I addressing it. If the question in the thread is whether or not people have the right to offend others then I reject the question... it should be phrased "do people have the right to express a position that others may find offensive?" I would argue that without question they do.

like all other books in the world,
the Bible was written by man . . .

My last post In this Thread.

Having said that, when you read a Book ( non fiction or fiction) for example, are there not parts you don't agree with.

It's the same thing.

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Originally posted by Moral Hazard Ask just about any minister/priest/clergy and they will openly admit that the bible was written by it's authors for specific audiences seeking to put forward specific beliefs and accomplish specific goals. This is why if you read two books containing the same story you will find the stories are different... because the authors were stressing different things. For example; Matthew identifies Jesus as being crucified the day of passover (the afternoon following the passover meal) whereas John states it happened on the day preceeding passover (the afternoon just prior to the passover meal) (remember the Hebrew day starts at sundown)... the reason for this is that John is trying to equate Jesus to the lambs that are sacraficed and eaten as part of the passover. This difference would have been deliberate on John's part; an attempt to convince Jews that Jesus' death replaces that passover and so too should Christianity replace Judiasm. When confronted with discrepencies like this it is not really possible to believe that every word of the bible is true. Moreover, when one consideres that there are no original copies of the books of the bible and that they have been edited and changed countless times it is folly to believe that every word is exactly as it was orignially written, even more ludicris to believe they are all the direct word of god (which of course it is not claimed to be).

Sounds like you've read Jesus Interrupted.

And yes, if you ask any minister or priest about this stuff they will agree with what you said, because they went to seminary and did the study necessary to understand it. The problem is that they don't relay what they learned to their parishioners, so the VAST majority of mainstream Christians have no clue about any of this stuff. Those are the ones who typically get criticized for their naivete and willful ignorance on these boards, not those who have managed to educate themselves on how the bible came together and who take a sane (far from literal) view of it.

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Originally posted by Capitalizt Sounds like you've read Jesus Interrupted.

Indeed, I'm reading it now, which is why that example was top of mind (although, I have to admit nothing I've read in it so far is new information to me. I do dig the way Erham writes though).

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And yes, if you ask any minister or priest about this stuff they will agree with what you said, because they went to seminary and did the study necessary to understand it. The problem is that they don't relay what they learned to their parishioners, so the VAST majority of mainstream Christians have no clue about any of this stuff. Those are the ones who typically get criticized for their naivete and willful ignorance on these boards, not those who have managed to educate themselves on how the bible came together and who take a sane (far from literal) view of it.

I wouldn't be so quick to write clergy off as not teaching this to their parishiners though... my priest frequently discusses the author's audience and intent in his homolies, we've had a few guest presiders do the same, and I am friends with a priest who teaches a class on delivering homolies who stresses to his students that this is important. Granted, all of that is in the catholic church and I cannot recall any homolies discussing discrepencies from when I was a member of the United Church; however, that was some time ago (my experience with services by other protestant sects are too few to take note of). I think Erham writes them off too easily as well. That said, I do think that more should be made of the differences and inconsistancies and more time devoted to explaining the context of the scriptures in churches of all descriptions, as I find this enriches them rather then detracts from them.

I also think it's probably not accurate to say that the vast majority of christians don't have any knowledge of these inconsistancies. You would need to be a total idiot not to see the problems in the Noah story as there are two complete and different versions of that story told together not in different books but from one line to another. I would suggest that the (sad) truth is that most people simply don't put that much thought into their faith. Many take it for granted that it is right so they defer the need to think about it. Others find that their questions unsettle them but not enough to actually put forward the work to seek answers, so they prefer to distract themselves. Still others simply ignore the inconsistancies assuming that there must be a reasonable solution out there (which is not the case for all). All three of those are distressing to me, as I believe that one should constantly challenge and examin their faith... blind faith is not actually faith. I often challenge people who I find fall into one of the above catagories (really drives my wife nuts). Of course, just because these people have inherited their faith rather then made an informed choice doesn't mean that they are worthy of ridicule... of course, they are not worthy of anything else either; much like one wouldn't attest to the quality of their broken watch at the two times per day it happens to be right.

I think some are misinterpreting Pat.

The fact that Christianity has done something does not mean that Christians take the Bible literally or have certain attitudes. It means that religion has been responsible for certain actions, which is a fact.

For example. No one says that because Hitler was a Christian, then all Christians are just as bad as Hitler or have similar attitudes. That would be absurd. But when Hitler was able to use Christianity to justify his actions, then Christianity has been a contributing factor, as he would otherwise have lacked excuses.

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