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-- wall street protests...is this the start of the revolution?
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quote:

Originally posted by smokeu Socialism has failed in Europe and banks there are struggling to keep Greece, Turkey, Italy, and others afloat. Not a good system to mirror our economy off of which Obama has tried to do. Has ended up in a historic debt that our grandkids will inherit (your kid's kids), a steady and abysmal unemployment rate more like 16% than the advertised 9%, and an economy faltering which could topple the world's economy without some drastic and immediate action. That would mean firing the incumbents, including the Fed chief and the rest of the "ill" advisors which have sunk us into a funk, and putting someone else in charge to solve the problem. Free enterprise has always proven to be a better substitute over socialism. [[[smoke]]]

Yeah, it wasn�t free enterprise that caused the financial crisis and its aftermath or anything, lulz.

quote:

Originally posted by Joss Weatherby corporations can do everything better than government.

shoes
food
iphones
jeans
internet
piano lessons
toasters
etc.

The burden of proof is on the US Federal government when it comes to allocating resources wisely. USPS? US Public Education? The Military? Cash for Clunkers (lol)? All dreadful wastes of money, no? Not really an idealistic stretch to say that...

And sadly I've actually never been out of the country for any extended time so I couldn't possibly know what "plenty of other countries" you're talking about. All I can really hang my hat on is that in general, the rise of economic liberalization has coincided with the decline of global poverty. If I am wrong on this, I have no business with an opinion on anything else, because it kind of all stems from this.

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN free enterprise that caused the financial crisis

I don't mean to absolve the criminal banksters here, but there is no 2008 housing market crash without years of government and monetary policy leading up to it. I don't have the answers, but blaming "free enterprise" is not quite right.

quote:

Originally posted by smokeu Socialism has failed in Europe and banks there are struggling to keep Greece, Turkey, Italy, and others afloat. Not a good system to mirror our economy off of which Obama has tried to do. Has ended up in a historic debt that our grandkids will inherit (your kid's kids), a steady and abysmal unemployment rate more like 16% than the advertised 9%, and an economy faltering which could topple the world's economy without some drastic and immediate action. That would mean firing the incumbents, including the Fed chief and the rest of the "ill" advisors which have sunk us into a funk, and putting someone else in charge to solve the problem. Free enterprise has always proven to be a better substitute over socialism. [[[smoke]]]

Greece, Turkey, and Italy all have very corrupt governments with lots of graft and fraud.

What do you have to say about countries like Norway, Sweden and Denmark? What about Japan? Yes they have lots of debt, but not nearly as much as the US (in raw dollars) and they have a much, much, much higher quality of life and better services provided by their government. Also remember that yes, Sweden, Norway, and Denmark have very small populations, but Japan has over 150 million people and is in tenth largest country in the world by population.

The problem is not the government, its the people. The US just can not do socialism. We are incapable of doing it. Our society is not set up culturally to handle a system that rewards investment in national interests and the country's population as a whole.

REMEMBER WHEN WORKERS ARE HAPPY AND THE WAGE EARNER IS MAKING A GOOD LIVING ALL BUSINESSES WILL PROSPER! DO NOT GO FOR THE SHORT TERM, THINK OF THE LONG TERM!

Idiots!

quote:

Originally posted by TranceArmstrong USPS?

who services all those places that the private sector is not interested in serving?

quote:

Originally posted by TranceArmstrong banksters

if you want to be taken seriously this isn't the word to use.

quote:

Originally posted by TranceArmstrong I don't mean to absolve the criminal banksters here, but there is no 2008 housing market crash without years of government and monetary policy leading up to it.

the reduction of the funds rate by alan the ayn rand fan greenspan certainly played its part but

quote:

Originally posted by TranceArmstrong I don't have the answers, but blaming "free enterprise" is not quite right.

blaming free enterprise (both business and individuals) for the lion's share of the mistakes/damage is a reasonable position imo. indeed much government error involved reducing the role of government in financial oversight.

quote:

Originally posted by nefardec

Thanks for posting this.

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN who services all those places that the private sector is not interested in serving?

The USPS is undeniably a disaster. Is there a place these days that the internet can't put you in touch with, or Fed Ex can't deliver a package to?

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN the reduction of the funds rate by alan the ayn rand fan greenspan certainly played its part but

housing subsidies
permanently low interest rates
CRA (plz dont call me racist)
Freddie/Fannie

It doesn't matter if Greenspan is an Ayn Rand fan or a New York Yankees fan, he was a failure.

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN blaming free enterprise (both business and individuals) for the lion's share of the mistakes/damage is a reasonable position imo. indeed much government error involved reducing the role of government in financial oversight.

Great, blame free enterprise, but don't blame capitalism as a system when we live under the influence of moral hazard, bailouts, too big to fail, artificial interest rates and permanent stimulus

quote:

Originally posted by Halcyon+On+On

quote:

Originally posted by Halcyon+On+On

Yeah, I think dudes would react the same way if chicks showed off their bush too.

quote:

Originally posted by TranceArmstrong The USPS is undeniably a disaster. Is there a place these days that the internet can't put you in touch with, or Fed Ex can't deliver a package to?

absolutely there are places that are not serviced by fed ex. hence my point. the internet may find it difficult to send christmas presents to little tommy in bumfuckville.

quote:

Originally posted by TranceArmstrong housing subsidies

sorry, not up on the role of subsidies.

quote:

Originally posted by TranceArmstrong permanently low interest rates

i already mentioned this in my previous posts; you also have a strange view of permanent. the entire sub prime debacle was due to lack of permanency.

quote:

Originally posted by TranceArmstrong CRA (plz dont call me racist)

right-wing scape goat for the crisis that had little to do with it (75% of TARP funds went to institutions not covered by the CRA).

quote:

Originally posted by TranceArmstrong Freddie/Fannie

fair call, but fannie was a publically traded & run company that was merely sponsored by government. this gave it undue advantage in the marketplace. was a nice example of govt-private failure.

quote:

Originally posted by TranceArmstrong It doesn't matter if Greenspan is an Ayn Rand fan or a New York Yankees fan, he was a failure.

yes, he was a failure because he believed in self-correcting markets.

i'll just include the private sector failures so we have a fair comparison.

sub prime lending to people who couldn't afford it.
useless rating agencies
complex financial packages not understood by those that sold them, let alone their customers
deregulation
predatory lending
shitty underwriting

quote:

Originally posted by TranceArmstrong Great, blame free enterprise, but don't blame capitalism as a system when we live under the influence of moral hazard, bailouts, too big to fail, artificial interest rates and permanent stimulus

1. too big to fail is a symptom of capitalism as far as it pertains to financial markets.
2. there is no such thing as "artificial" interest rates. rates are what they are.
3. central banks are supposed to act as lenders of last resort. nobody liked the bailouts, but they were necessary due to private sector collapse.
4. again you have an unusual definition of permanent.

The fact is that the whole system is fucked. It was only a matter of time before the American middle class started getting smaller and the have's and have not's grew farther apart. It's pointless arguing about the little details. Unless the U.S. government seriously changes its approach when it comes to the economy and free enterprise, the problems will not go away. I do think its ridiculous to blame corporations just because at the same time there is such a dependence on them (as consumers and as workers) but at the same time I do agree that companies should not be allowed to run loose the way they are now.

Also, the fact is that big business has the U.S. government by the balls. You'll probably have to do something about that before anything else.

quote:

Originally posted by Vector A

i would occupy that...

quote:

Originally posted by Vector A

Makes sense. This kind of career does make your life pretty secure

quote:

Originally posted by MSZ

http://www.kmfdm.net/

quote:

Originally posted by Arbiter The "risk" of spreading it? Don't make me laugh. Do you have any idea how much corporate money is being poured into spreading this little movement at this very moment? If those in power wanted to put a stop to these little protests, it would be a trivial matter. At this point, however, that's the last thing they want. They'll continue to allow these protesters to play out their little fantasy, unaware that they are serving the very interests they intend to oppose.

some of my phone pics from today


on the march up to occupy times square from washington square. this is 14th st and 6th ave.


MORE COWBELL


in the middle of times square. things got pretty crazy, mounted policemen, some violence, overall just lots and lots and lots of people





i found this video, but it was taken before everyone really got there

I kinda lol'd at the third pic. The people advertising there, on all those screens and massive billboards, are getting MAXIMUM GLOBAL EXPOSURE right now

quote:

Originally posted by Sushipunk I kinda lol'd at the third pic. The people advertising there, on all those screens and massive billboards, are getting MAXIMUM GLOBAL EXPOSURE right now

there's advertising in literally every corner of experience. you look at these pics on a website with ads on the top of the page. most news sites have a third of the page devoted to ads... the fact that there are ads in the pictures has a negligible effect on exposure to those brands, and even so they are negatively affected by the fact that there are a bunch of protestors in front of them.


In any case, occupy wall street, as the name suggests, is about keeping the financial industry in check, not really victoria's secret or hyundai.

quote:

Originally posted by nefardec What are you talking about? I'm not sure how much more clearly defined it can be: generally, corporate power needs to be checked at all times by the writ of the law of the people, since the goals of corporations are ultimately not aligned with goals of human beings, except for the few who sit at the top (and more importantly those who additionally don't give fuck-all about anyone else), out of the splash zone (arbitrarily referred to as the 1%). specifically, the speculative financial industry should be held accountable for their illegal/fraudulent/exploitative manipulations of money at the cost of the economic solvency of what amounts to 99% of americans. corporate influence in politics needs to be eliminated - political funding should be on a limited, equal individual basis.

Before anything else, I should concede that I wasn't aware that a codified set of tents had even been drawn up in the first place, though I don't believe this existed from the beginning, and may have just been something that was concocted in response to the pressure stemming from protestors actually being asked to issue something other than a vague revolt against authority (feel free to document me wrong, though).

That said, I don't believe this is quite as neatly and coherently canonized in practice as it is in principle. Granted, I have mainly observational impressions to base this on, but all of this seems heavily divided among different political frameworks (or lack thereof). Yes, they would all agree, in spirit, with the above set of ideals should they be confronted with them, but there appears to be no end of people who are involved in this who are using at as a vehicle to facilitate a broader political ideology, which often aren't compatible, and by no means representative of the whole.

Sure, one of the benefits of a movement that's built upon such a broadly acceptable set of ideals is that it enables people from all walks of life and worldviews to participate, but that deeper lack of cohesion is what I feel will prevent this from ultimately being the revolutionary upheaval many want it to be.

quote:

Originally posted by nefardec Yes, of course there are some radicals who are part of the movement - why wouldn't they be? But this isn't about radical revolution as much as it is purely about justice and fairness. Also, to be honest, from a conceptual standpoint, I find #OCCUPY to be kind of a misnomer - IMO it is more #LIBERATE than #OCCUPY - the occupation seems to me to be the anti-human corporate system that we've traded our souls to for stuff. In any case, #OCCUPY is a powerful word that inspires direct action and enjoys wide usage, and that's only good for the movement.

I'm not talking about a fringe set of radicals. 'Occupation' has a sensationalist overtone to it that tends to resonate with that variety of individual who romanticizes the notion of 'revolution,' regardless as to whether or not their understanding of it has any meaningful focus, or if they're actually prepared to accept the unforeseen baggage that comes along with it actually coming to fruition.

I'm actually quite on board with the spirit of this movement, but it also happens to be the token protest for those with a vaguely defined sense of unrest that like the idea of being swept up into a heavily charged political fervor.

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