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-- European Politics Thread: Netherlands, France, Germany, Great Britain, and Narnia 2017
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I already told you, man. I think you've made it pretty clear that you have no actual intention of debating ideas, just ridiculing mine and calling me names.

I'd like to thank Groenlinks for helping us have a 100-post long debate that isn't about American politics.

You're talking about them, right?

quote:

Originally posted by wotyzoid What? I thought we were talking about taxation and morality.

um, no. it was about pollution from the very first page. you even posted a nice big CO2 chart for us in post #8.

this is the operative sentence i originally quoted:

quote:

Originally posted by wotyzoid If you look at the scale of what is required to stand a chance, the main culprits are not regular people living their everyday lives...

and you go on to blame various industries. it should be painfully obvious that these various industries are only in existence because of "regular people" and their thirst for energy, burgers and consumer products. so while any single company would clearly create more CO2 than any individual, that doesn't abrogate our responsibility for their actions.

quote:

Originally posted by wotyzoid It's very easy to brush off what I'm saying as commie tangents and not address any of it,

had i been interested in engaging the ism you've tried to shoe-horn into this conversation, i would have quoted something other than the above.

quote:

Originally posted by wotyzoid but i'm just refuting what you said. Where is the nobility in turning a profit?

my quote re nobility was (again) in reference to your apparent belief that private corporations are responsible for all the environmental harm in the world, while us 99-percenters get away scot-free (which is funny, given that most of us would be in the top 10%).

i was merely comparing the self-interested actions of a power generation business, with the selfish desires of its customers (ie us). you then went on some irrelevant class warfare tangents, which have not addressed my central point from the start- why are the actions of business qualitatively different from the actions of the customers it supplies.

quote:

Originally posted by wotyzoid No faith in human beings. Of course their prime minister had to entice private companies to build the things, but the gornment still bought the lines of the grid, which are publicly owned. How else are you supposed to get things done under capitalism?

regulation?

quote:

However, in 2008, ten northeastern states in the USA (Connecticut, Delaware, Maine, Maryland, Massachusetts, New Hampshire, New Jersey, New York, Rhode Island, and Vermont) implemented a carbon cap and trade system which will reduce their carbon dioxide (CO2) emissions from the power sector by 10% by 2018 in the Regional Greenhouse Gas Initiative (RGGI)... All in all, through the first two years of the system, the ten states generated $789 million through the auctioning and direct sale of CO2 emissions allowances. Each state developed its own plan for investing those funds, but overall, 52% was used for energy efficiency programs, 14% for energy bill payment assistance, including assistance to low-income ratepayers, and 11% to accelerate deployment of renewable energy technologies.

https://skepticalscience.com/real-w...eigh-costs.html

quote:

Australia�s greenhouse gas emissions dropped 1.4% in the second full year of the carbon price � the largest recorded annual decrease in the past decade.

https://www.theguardian.com/environ...on-tax-kicks-in

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN why are the actions of business qualitatively different from the actions of the customers it supplies.

I answered it when you asked the first time, you just don't wanna accept my answer. Profit margins. You don't drive to work for profit margins necessarily, neither do you buy McDonalds for profit margins. I'm all for the legislation. You're not gonna get a disagreement out of me with that kind of stuff.

quote:

Originally posted by wotyzoid I answered it when you asked the first time, you just don't wanna accept my answer.

because it's a shit answer that doesn't make sense.

quote:

Originally posted by wotyzoid Profit margins.

you arbitrarily designate the self-interested basis of "profits" as somehow worse than the self-interested basis of consumer behaviour. sometimes on a ridiculously hot day i like to go for a long drive just so i can pump the aircon. but somehow that's subaru's and BP's fault?

the fact that energy companies work for profits has no relationship to the impact their co2 pollution has on the planet. we don't use more or less energy on the basis of the economic model under which that energy is delivered; we use energy on the basis of our wants and needs vs unit price. our consumption is what drives these companies, to exclude us from the Responsibility Chain based on 'no profits' is nonsensical.

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN because it's a shit answer that doesn't make sense. you arbitrarily designate the self-interested basis of "profits" as somehow worse than the self-interested basis of consumer behaviour. sometimes on a ridiculously hot day i like to go for a long drive just so i can pump the aircon. but somehow that's subaru's and BP's fault?

If you factor in all the you's that like to go out with the ac up on a hot day Subaru and bp are exponentially responsible for providing you all with a car and oil based on your "productivity". Its not necessarily your fault or bp's or Subaru's in this case like you intend to pollute obviously. Its the faulty system.

quote:

the fact that energy companies work for profits has no relationship to the impact their co2 pollution has on the planet.

You realise this an absurd statement right? That's what your capitalism is. If these companies weren't profit driven they would have never expanded at the rate they did.

Lol "I paid for this car and gas with my hard earned salary like an adult through work, and I take full responsibility for this co2 emission"

Your ideas are the boring nonsense of a 16 year old who has just been introduced to marijuana and Marx for the first time. 'Everything is the system's fault; the system and the evil capitalists at the top!'

Ok

quote:

Originally posted by wotyzoid If you factor in all the you's that like to go out with the ac up on a hot day Subaru and bp are exponentially responsible for providing you all with a car and oil based on your "productivity". Its not necessarily your fault or bp's or Subaru's in this case like you intend to pollute obviously. Its the faulty system.

right. because another, non-faulty system would use fossil fuels in a non-polluting manner

quote:

Originally posted by wotyzoid You realise this an absurd statement right?

no, you're just thick. the combustion and burning of fossil fuels has the exact same impact on the environment whether under capitalism, or economic moronism.

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN right. because another, non-faulty system would use fossil fuels in a non-polluting manner no, you're just thick. the combustion and burning of fossil fuels has the exact same impact on the environment whether under capitalism, or economic moronism.

Now I think you're the thick one. No shit Co2 will have the same effects no matter what system its under, we are talking about scale and availability. BP would be the same monster with 7 figure bonus salaries for it's top henchmen with a gas station at almost every other corner under communism, you're telling me. And I'm the thick one.

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN right. because another, non-faulty system would use fossil fuels in a non-polluting manner

Under a non-faulty system you wouldn't have a fucking car with that attitude.

quote:

Originally posted by wotyzoid No shit Co2 will have the same effects no matter what system its under...

really? because you seemed to struggle with this basic concept earlier:

quote:

Originally posted by wotyzoid You realise this an absurd statement right?

quote:

Originally posted by wotyzoid we are talking about scale and availability. BP would be the same monster with 7 figure bonus salaries for it's top henchmen with a gas station at almost every other corner under communism, you're telling me. And I'm the thick one.

oh look, another irrelevant commie tangent. shocked.

Keep working for that dollar like a good grown-up.

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN really? because you seemed to struggle with this basic concept earlier

Where? You must really be a fucking idiot if you think I struggle with the scientific fact of co2 doing harm to the environment. Co2 wouldn't be produced at the rate it is if it weren't for capitalism, dumb dumb.

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN oh look, another irrelevant commie tangent. shocked.

That's literally all he's got.

What else do I need when I have the truth?

quote:

Originally posted by Lews That's literally all he's got.

i know right? adolescent commies are as bad as vegans and atheists.

It's like watching a bunch of little kids play 'house'.

Let's talk about adult responsibility, you don't feel an ounce of shame or guilt for bragging about blasting your ac? Being misled by you teachers and TV? Going to your shitty job so you can eat. Or are you proud? What's that word? Dignity?



Pfff

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN i know right? adolescent commies are as bad as vegans and atheists.

Idealists, ugh.

quote:

Originally posted by wotyzoid BP would be the same monster with 7 figure bonus salaries for it's top henchmen with a gas station at almost every other corner under communism, you're telling me. And I'm the thick one.

Communist states have historically been very restrained with heavy industry and militarisation, of course.

Those are dictatorships you're thinking of.

Everytime I make a fart I help a plant grow

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