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-- What happened to Lightning Records?
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Originally posted by gaz@influential Can I just challenge the assertion a lot of people are making that record labels rely on vinyl sales? For a lot of labels royalties from compilation licensing can actually make more than vinyl sales, which are obviously on CD, therefore mp3s do affect them.

yeh but arnt all liscences purchased before the CD's are sold thus unaffected by the how many CD's are sold?

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Originally posted by Dumonde Trancer yeh but arnt all liscences purchased before the CD's are sold thus unaffected by the how many CD's are sold?

i think they also receieve royalties for every cd sold too.

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Originally posted by M.A.R.K i think they also receieve royalties for every cd sold too.

Yup!

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Originally posted by M.A.R.K i think they also receieve royalties for every cd sold too.

righteo

fair play

but lets face it most cd ompilations are shit, i dont even download them let alone buy them

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Originally posted by Dumonde Trancer righteo fair play but lets face it most cd ompilations are shit, i dont even download them let alone buy them

Yeah! Out of 20 compilations 19 are shite and 1 is good. ;/

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Originally posted by SuperFarStucker There simply isnt any data available that prove mp3s are killing the scene or helping it..

On the contrary.
There have been many studies, and they all prove that, if anything, MP3's actually help the industry.

I, for example, am not a big MP3 junkie; I have very few MP3's and am not so addicted to the whole WinMX/Napster/.. culture. As a DJ I have a big collection of vinyl, and I regularly buy vinyl, as well as Trance CD's and DJ mixes that are available in stores.

However, if I were to hear an MP3 that I liked, I would immediately search to see if it's available on vinyl, and if I really liked it, yes, I would buy the vinyl! Vinyl nowadays exists mostly for the DJ. And, as a DJ, I'd love to add that track to my collection. There's also the quality argument: What audiophile would listen to a lower-quality MP3? Most people who like music are audiophiles. Those who just grab the MP3's and spend their time leeching stuff are not true fans, they're amateurs. And trust me, there are enough audiophiles out there, as well as DJs.

So, DJMayTag, I disagree with your argument, and there have been studies that show MP3 in a much more favorable light than you think. I can find you some links if you want.

Here's a few pro-MP3 links for you:

http://www.azoz.com/music/features/0008.html

http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/archive/26710.html

http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/archive/28588.html

http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/6/28919.html

Don't know exactly where to find anti-MP3 news that's truly valid. I suppose you could simply go to www.riaa.com for that.

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Originally posted by robstar But they do! Putting tracks on vinly is pretty expensive, if someone puts ur track on a compilation u don't have to pay for the pressing. So since u don't have any expensives u make more money.

i was talking about the compilations labels release themselves. so in that case, there is pressing involved..

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Originally posted by tor8024 i don't know any figures, but i hardly think trance labels earn more money from compilations than from vinyls. they target clubs, not the masses..

Well I do (know the figures) and plenty of tracks make more for the label via compilation licensing than vinyl sales. If labels are only selling 2000 copies of a track (which is a good figure) when you take into account pressing, publishing, remix fees etc, there isn't much left..

i can't be arsed to read the whole thread, lotsa opinions on this one but check it from this point of view: mp3 is just a new factor that all music business industry must deal with (even if it may not be a very fair factor). lightning didn't deal with it correctly and went down. simple as that. i do believe many labels may become bankrupt due to this "new factor" but what shocks me is that bonzai was first. how in hell can smaller labels be out there still, putting out vinyls nobody knows cuz armin/pvd/ferry/tijs/whoever does not play, and still survive, while bonzai who had regularly dozens of tunes played by all the big folks doesn't survive

i feel something's wrong in this story, it's a conspiracy i tell ya!

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Originally posted by PaRaNoIk0 but what shocks me is that bonzai was first

wrong, what about Global Underground? plenty of other labels have gone bust or had their major label backing withdrawn, in the UK labels like AM:PM (released Armin - Communication here) have gone, same with Manifesto.

The other thing is plenty of small labels stop operating all the time but nobody knows if they haven't heard of them, surely.

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Originally posted by gaz@influential Well I do (know the figures) and plenty of tracks make more for the label via compilation licensing than vinyl sales.

i did not know that. i didn't seem very logical to me either, as i've always thought these labels mainly target the club scene (dj's), and not the one or two trance fans there are among the rest of the population.. i guess the repercussions mp3 has on the trance industry are bigger than i thought..

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Originally posted by gaz@influential wrong, what about Global Underground? plenty of other labels have gone bust or had their major label backing withdrawn, in the UK labels like AM:PM (released Armin - Communication here) have gone, same with Manifesto. The other thing is plenty of small labels stop operating all the time but nobody knows if they haven't heard of them, surely.

hey mate, firstly nice interview @ ivibes & Looking forward to ur set on tranceairwaves this week

I own lots of cd's on labels from past years, and have like Manifesto ones, AM:PM and the like, and it is sad to see that only really positiva about atm, and they've probably only managed so long because of the commercial side of their music. With these labels gone, it's increasingly hard to buy singles on cd like I used to Lightning maybe have a lot of publicity cos of who they are, but labels are shutting a lot more than just them, the only thing I'm unsure on, how much of an impact do mp3s really have, i've not seen anything to show me conclusive proof, and not just blaming bad management on mp3s, and finally, BT's latest ad if you seen it, the one with the woman saying she has broadband to download music and has more on her hdd than on cd's, surely these companies could do more, it seems ok for them to sell their products for downloading music, but the moment sum1 downloads the song, they're in the wrong

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Originally posted by ferrycorstenfan hey mate, firstly nice interview @ ivibes & Looking forward to ur set on tranceairwaves this week I own lots of cd's on labels from past years, and have like Manifesto ones, AM:PM and the like, and it is sad to see that only really positiva about atm, and they've probably only managed so long because of the commercial side of their music. With these labels gone, it's increasingly hard to buy singles on cd like I used to Lightning maybe have a lot of publicity cos of who they are, but labels are shutting a lot more than just them, the only thing I'm unsure on, how much of an impact do mp3s really have, i've not seen anything to show me conclusive proof, and not just blaming bad management on mp3s, and finally, BT's latest ad if you seen it, the one with the woman saying she has broadband to download music and has more on her hdd than on cd's, surely these companies could do more, it seems ok for them to sell their products for downloading music, but the moment sum1 downloads the song, they're in the wrong

Glad you liked the interview mate

About that BT ad, I completely agree. The music industry definitely needs to do something about advertisements like that rather than attacking the users.

The add basically condones freely breaking copyright law to try and sell their broadband product, not right surely??

quote:

Originally posted by tor8024 i did not know that. i didn't seem very logical to me either, as i've always thought these labels mainly target the club scene (dj's), and not the one or two trance fans there are among the rest of the population.. i guess the repercussions mp3 has on the trance industry are bigger than i thought..

Probably 95-97% of all vinyl goes to DJ's to play at clubs. The rest go to enthusiasts who really like the music and want to hear it outside the clubs. The same goes to CD's. It used to be (for me anyway, before I started DJ'ing) that I'd go clubbing/raving on the weekends, and buying CD's would give me something to listen to during the week. This is the market that's being afected, as it's a big source of income for labels from licensing fees. MP3 downloading takes away the need for many enthusiasts to go out and buy those CD compilations and mixes, thus gravely affecting their bottom line.

bought global cd.dvd today.....very nice compilation.

quote:

Originally posted by gaz@influential Well I do (know the figures) and plenty of tracks make more for the label via compilation licensing than vinyl sales. If labels are only selling 2000 copies of a track (which is a good figure) when you take into account pressing, publishing, remix fees etc, there isn't much left..

quote:

Originally posted by gaz@influential Well I do (know the figures) and plenty of tracks make more for the label via compilation licensing than vinyl sales. If labels are only selling 2000 copies of a track (which is a good figure) when you take into account pressing, publishing, remix fees etc, there isn't much left..

Also enjoyed your interview Gareth, and anticipate your set on tranceairwaves. So it seems that you say here that CD compilations make more for the labels (and ultimately the producers?). So overall, do you believe that CD compilations are the ones that are most affected by MP3 downloads? Is there really much damage done, therefore, to vinyl sales from MP3 singles?

quote:

Originally posted by gaz@influential Glad you liked the interview mate About that BT ad, I completely agree. The music industry definitely needs to do something about advertisements like that rather than attacking the users. The add basically condones freely breaking copyright law to try and sell their broadband product, not right surely??

Yeah, it seems ok that BT can use it in their marketing ploy 'u can download lots of music' but the moment someone does the blame goes to that person, it's like offering a person on a diet an icecream then telling their instructor at fat camp they had it, so I think they have a more responsible attitude to take before ppl who dl them are solely blamed

Ian

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Originally posted by MisterOpus1 Also enjoyed your interview Gareth, and anticipate your set on tranceairwaves. So it seems that you say here that CD compilations make more for the labels (and ultimately the producers?). So overall, do you believe that CD compilations are the ones that are most affected by MP3 downloads? Is there really much damage done, therefore, to vinyl sales from MP3 singles?

Just to take your first point, I wouldn't say it's *always* the case that compilation licensing makes more money for labels, but it definitely can happen - getting tracks on big compilations (in the UK these are typically by Euphoria, Ministry of Sound, Gatecrasher, Godskitchen) certainly is a lucractive earner, which people need to bear in mind before saying "dance music is safe from mp3s because of vinyl".

On your second point, I think we've got to be very careful when assesing the impact of mp3s one way or another. As there are a number of other factors also contributing to the falling vinyl sales (for example, and bear in mind I'm only referring to the UK here: declining DJ culture, declining popularity of trance, lack of trance records getting on the radio), it's very difficult to know which factors are having the most effect.

However what I will say is that other genres that don't have massive mp3 swapping communities, ie: techno, drum & bass, house, are still just about getting by. Trance labels are being hit harder than any other and trance is by far the most commonly traded dance music genre on the net. I draw no conclusion from that fact, but will leave that to you

Glad you liked the interview

quote:

Originally posted by gaz@influential wrong, what about Global Underground? plenty of other labels have gone bust or had their major label backing withdrawn, in the UK labels like AM:PM (released Armin - Communication here) have gone, same with Manifesto. The other thing is plenty of small labels stop operating all the time but nobody knows if they haven't heard of them, surely.

this could explain the decline in quality trance that we hear, these labels don't pick up artists so the tunes don't make it to the clubs or radio

those were good labels, good times

[blayzinyo] that's not right
[melIy] i read it through, and im starting to believe file sharing is damaging
* bakemono talks his balls off
[bakemono] file sharing is tight
[melIy] its not fatal, but definitely potentially damaging
[bakemono] why waste ur money on this stuff
[bakemono] when its free
[bakemono] right here
[melIy] heehee
[melIy] thats really what it comes down to
[melIy] but now that ive heard stories about people dropping set rips and shit into sets
[melIy] that just isnt right




I think this kind of typifies the kind of thinking that is damaging to record labels through mp3 file sharing. Though I dont have all the money in the world, i still do buy many things i download (if by many you mean three or four a month) but I would never spin a set rip or anything like that just so i could be first....that is just cheesy to me

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Posted by MisterOpus1 on Mar-14-2003 16:09:

quote:

Originally posted by gaz@influential On your second point, I think we've got to be very careful when assesing the impact of mp3s one way or another. As there are a number of other factors also contributing to the falling vinyl sales (for example, and bear in mind I'm only referring to the UK here: declining DJ culture, declining popularity of trance, lack of trance records getting on the radio), it's very difficult to know which factors are having the most effect.

Very true. This is something that I've wondered about as well as read on a number of other boards: the decline in popularity of trance overseas. I feel this has had a direct impact on the lack of popularity of trance here in the States. At least it seems to influence it's ability to catch on over here in some ways. Do you agree? Oh sure, you'll always have your DJ Micro, George Acosta, and so forth who will continue to stay true to their tastes in trance here in the U.S., but the popularity of House, Tribal, Prog., and even some D&B has continued to rise here without the ability of Trance to do the same.

[/QUOTE] However what I will say is that other genres that don't have massive mp3 swapping communities, ie: techno, drum & bass, house, are still just about getting by. Trance labels are being hit harder than any other and trance is by far the most commonly traded dance music genre on the net. I draw no conclusion from that fact, but will leave that to you [/QUOTE]

Last question for you and then I'll leave you alone: Why do you think Trance has been hardest hit with MP3 file swapping? Is it because of its commercialization? Ironically, perhaps this is one of the reasons why the popularity of Trance in the UK has decreased somewhat (i.e. overkill). Thoughts?

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Posted by Mr.Mystery on Mar-14-2003 16:17:

quote:

Originally posted by MisterOpus1 Last question for you and then I'll leave you alone: Why do you think Trance has been hardest hit with MP3 file swapping? Is it because of its commercialization? Ironically, perhaps this is one of the reasons why the popularity of Trance in the UK has decreased somewhat (i.e. overkill). Thoughts?

I'd say it's because most tracks are released as vinyl only and only a fraction of us (okay, maybe more here on TA but generally) actually have decks.

I would buy a lot more CD's if I could have full versions of tracks on a disc... these radio edit collections just don't cut it.

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Posted by gaz@influential on Mar-14-2003 16:36:

quote:

Originally posted by MisterOpus1 Last question for you and then I'll leave you alone: Why do you think Trance has been hardest hit with MP3 file swapping? Is it because of its commercialization? Ironically, perhaps this is one of the reasons why the popularity of Trance in the UK has decreased somewhat (i.e. overkill). Thoughts?

Hard one, but my best suggestion is that trance, as one of the most futuristic music genres, seems to attract (or at least has in the last few years) tech-savvy mp3 using fans. It's nothing to do with commericalisation IMO - obviously, yes, a totally underground genre won't have a massive mp3 scene, but house is just as commerical as trance in the UK and that doesn't suffer the same problems.

I think it comes down to this. Back in 1998/99 people heard new trance in a club, that was the place to hear new music. Then they went to record stores, listened to, and bought the music they liked. But the key point was, the primary listening was done out clubbing on nights out - AS IT SHOULD BE. Music sounds a lot better in a club than on some desktop speakers. In house, d&b, breaks etc, people still hear most new tunes out.

Yet somewhere down the line, trance became *the* dance genre for the internet community. This now means that most people don't hear new trance in clubs - they hear it on mp3s, on live rips, on Armin's ID&T show, on net broadcasts, etc.

This for me has had two main reprocussions (going slightly OT here, but interesting none the less):

a) People are much more critical about trance than before. Fact is most half decent dance music sounds great in a club, but it has to be AMAZING to sound great on your home PC. For example, the big tunes a few years ago, ie: Binary Finary - 1998 were loved by pretty much everyone, without exception. But these days you never seem to get such universal love for tunes, because the internet community is so incredibley critical, even about things you wouldn't notice in a club: "Hmmm the hi-hat programming isn't quite perfect".

b) Clubs are less fun because of increased amounts of people knowing the music that's getting played. Gone are the days of whole rooms of people going properly mental, oh no, there's also a few geeks around the edge going "No way man, I've had this tune on mp3 for like three months, how behind is he?!". Big club tunes stop being big clubs tunes sooner than before and DJs often end up playing crap tunes, just because people don't know them.

So yes, in a way, trance is a victim of its own popularity. People becoming so obsessive about trance, and trance tunes, has in effect taken a lot of the fun out of the genre.

(all completley IMVHO and a bit deep)

Thoughts??

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