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quote:

Originally posted by Shakka I dunno--is the U.S. actively trying to increase its nuclear arsenal? For non-peaceful purposes?

lol. They really dont need too!!
I cant provide a quote because i cant remember where i read it but the states have enough nuclear weaponery to blow the entire world up 4.5 times..

quote:

Originally posted by Purple Who threatened whom first? Who started this? US.. Bush labelled three countries 'Axis of Evils' out of nowhere and said world should get rid of them... so by your logic; shoudn't we be stripping US of its nukes first?

First of all.. There were four. Iran, Iraq, north Korea and Syria.

Second of all.. He didnt say that he planned on "getting rid of them"

Thirdly: Who would you rather with nukes.. USA or Iran.. And give an honest answer

quote:

Originally posted by Shakka So it's more Iran's rhetoric that is the reason they are being deprived of this great energy source that will finally give them energy independence.

Seriously, it will. Nuke powered energy is the best any country can have.. life long source never ending stream of Power for its country's industry.

And it is nothing new that Iran is doing today, its called upgradation.. Iran has been importing, upgrading its nuclear powered stations technology since like decades... every country is doing it..and does it..you start with lower grade Uranium .. than migrate to better grade which is more effective.. than plutonium.. than hydrogen..and stuff like that.. every country has the right to research and import knowledge.. its life; always look for better things...

But suddenly after 9/11 all of Iran's research and development are now only directed towards destruction of Isreal and making nuclear bombs.. it has suddenly become there sole motive of existance and its country's aim.. according to Bush. Suddenly Iran exists and whole country only works to get one thing.. a nuclear bomb to destroy Israel.. how petite western mentality is.... they never look beyond there own lives.

quote:

Originally posted by sasslife Thirdly: Who would you rather with nukes.. USA or Iran.. And give an honest answer

Racism at its best. If US can have it why cant Iran? Who is you and me to tell who has the right to it and who hasent.. and nobody can predict which country will use it first.. if Russia woudnt have intervened US would have nuked Cuba long time back.. it would have been the first than.. US is itching to use its nukes arsenal.. Bush even said one that US was thinking of using 'smaller' nuke bombs in Iran..

quote:

Originally posted by Purple Racism at its best. If US can have it why cant Iran? Who is you and me to tell who has the right to it and who hasent.. and nobody cant predict which country will use it first.. if Russia woudnt have intervened US would have nuked Cuba long time back.. it would have been the first than.. US is itching to use its nukes arsenal.. Bush even said one that US was thinking of using 'smaller' nuke bombs in Iran..

Call it what you like.
Its a gamble.. Who can i trust more to do the right thing by me and the society in which i live..

USA (Probably Australas third largest ali) or a rag head with an attitude??

quote:

Originally posted by sasslife Second of all.. He didnt say that he planned on "getting rid of them"

But with the U.S's history of invading coutries, it makes it obvious its on thier To Do List.

President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad has said some things that things that are way outta line, but how much of that could have been taken outta context & used in a scare tactic by our govt & media.? Just like when Pres Bush made the comment about the war on terror & said the word Crusade. All the muslim biased news sources loved that. But again it was taken outta context.

But where does Irans President get the fuel to make these outrages statements.? Well since WWII the U.S. has been heavily trying to control Iran from having the CIA take out thier democratically elected leaders & then by force putting in U.S. friendly leaders & a military dictator so U.S. companies & allies can control all of Irans oil. Then after the people of Iran got fed up & had a revolution & took the country back as thier own, the U.S. runs to the U.N. & starts lobbying for sanctions to be put on the country. Then during the 80's the U.S. supplys WMD's to Irans enemy Iraq & Iraq uses those WMD's on Iran. So i wonder if a country did this or even ever attempted to do this to the U.S., what the U.S. would do about it.?

quote:

Originally posted by Purple Racism at its best. If US can have it why cant Iran? Who is you and me to tell who has the right to it and who hasent.. and nobody can predict which country will use it first.. if Russia woudnt have intervened US would have nuked Cuba long time back.. it would have been the first than.. US is itching to use its nukes arsenal.. Bush even said one that US was thinking of using 'smaller' nuke bombs in Iran..

It's not racism. It's common sense. Sorry if it offends you.

quote:

Originally posted by jonSun But where does Irans President get the fuel to make these outrages statements.? Well since WWII the U.S. has been heavily trying to control Iran from having the CIA take out thier democratically elected leaders & then by force putting in U.S. friendly leaders & a military dictator so U.S. companies & allies can control all of Irans oil. Then after the people of Iran got fed up & had a revolution & took the country back as thier own, the U.S. runs to the U.N. & starts lobbying for sanctions to be put on the country. Then during the 80's the U.S. supplys WMD's to Irans enemy Iraq & Iraq uses those WMD's on Iran. So i wonder if a country did this or even ever attempted to do this to the U.S., what the U.S. would do about it.?

Im not defending the decsions made by the west!!

But Irans president statements are a self full filling prophacy. The americans are coming so lets build weapons.

When the world has had enough the amercans will show up on your doorstep and the iranian people will pay with blood.. Diplomacy doesnt work with nut cases so there is little other that can be done.

Once all is said and done i would prefer Iran whiped off the map than live with an armed Allotolah!!

(keep in mind i am iranian by heritage so im not a biggot who hates all things persian)

quote:

Originally posted by sasslife (keep in mind i am iranian by heritage so im not a biggot who hates all things persian)

With that said, one of my closest friends (best man at my wedding) is a farsi speaking Iranian. I have nothing against him or peaceful Iranians. But when he confirms to me that the President of Iran is certifiably off his rocker, I take comfort in the fact that this man is being deprived of his nuclear ambitions (at least hopefully). It's not about racism.

The racism card is an absolute load of bullsh*t..

Nobody has said that they cant have nuclear powered stations. There was an offer put on the table whereby Russia would supply them with the material but all the waste must be returned and accounted for.

Why was it knocked back?? THEY WANT WEAPONS.

And as purple said, it is the most efficent way to generate power for industry.. What industries could the iranian regime be trying to support??

Who knows, but I bet you if someone offered them an unlimited supply of solar panels they wouldn't have the slightest interest. (Even if it is an absurd hypothetical, it makes the point).

Just as an aside, lets assume that Iran does want nuclear weapons...

Do you think Iran's desire for nuclear weapons is for defensive or offensive purposes?

quote:

Originally posted by George Smiley Do you think Iran's desire for nuclear weapons is for defensive or offensive purposes?

Comments about wanting to eradicate Israel would indicate offensive motives, no?

quote:

Originally posted by sasslife The racism card is an absolute load of bullsh*t.. Nobody has said that they cant have nuclear powered stations. There was an offer put on the table whereby Russia would supply them with the material but all the waste must be returned and accounted for. Why was it knocked back?? THEY WANT WEAPONS.

Iran is dependent on countries who import oil from them and than export it back to Iran in refined form. They have it but still they cant use it, they rely on other countries for its supply.

This Russia uranium enrichment scheme is exactly the same thing. They will be dependant on Russia all their lives for providing enriched uranium to them, to run their facilities and economy.

Things dont work like this. You are running a country and not a company where you outsource your processes to other countries.

Who will gaurantee them enriched uranium when Russia goes blank like they did with Ukraine recently? Or you want Iran to sit without electricity and energy till Russia starts enriching uranium again for them.

Iran wants to be independant, and have an independant and reliable source of long term energy demands which is growing everyday.

quote:

And as purple said, it is the most efficent way to generate power for industry.. What industries could the iranian regime be trying to support??

Size of UK:

total: 244,820 sq km
land: 241,590 sq km
water: 3,230 sq km

Size of France:

total: 547,030 sq km
land: 545,630 sq km
water: 1,400 sq km

Size for Germany:

total: 357,021 sq km
land: 349,223 sq km
water: 7,798 sq km


Area of Iran:

total: 1.648 million sq km
land: 1.636 million sq km
water: 12,000 sq km

Iran roughly adds up to UK, France and Germany combined...thats how big it is.

Iran is a big country; with good established industries. It share borders with 7 different countries.. and a good amount of trade is done (export-import) with other countries in Middle East. It has one of the best manufactoring base. Iran in Middle East is like what US is in West.

Its not like in Afhanistan, North Korea, or sactions crippled Iraq.

And hitting Iran will hit and effect whole of Middle East commercially.. it will bring down economy of many small countries in Middle East and hit directly their people lives too... like making everything very expensive.. bread, clothes, grocery etc.. basic amenities of life.. life is already hard after all this trash talk, it will just make things more tougher for these guys.. everyday life...

Land mass means squat other than they have that much more potential oil beneath them making them potentially that much more rich in a naturally occurring energy source. Ever heard of Alaska? Why don't they build some oil refineries? God knows it's a much safer business than building nuclear reactors.

Area of France: 260,558 sq. mi
Population of France: 63,587,700
GDP of France: $1.830 trillion
Per capita GDP: $29,316

Area of Germany: 137,858 sq mi
Population of Germany: 82,438,000
GDP of Germany: $2.522 trillion
Per Capita GDP: $30,579

Area of Japan: 145,883 sq mi
Population of Japan: 128,085,000
GDP of Japan: $3.911 trillion
Per capita GDP: $30,615

Area of Belgium: 11,787 sq mi
Population of Belgium: 10,419,000
GDP of Belgium: $316.2 billion
Per capita GDP: $29,707

Area of the U.S.: 3,718,695 sq mi
Population of U.S.: 299,102,661
GDP of U.S.: $12.28 trillion
Per Capita GDP: $41,399

Area of U.K.: 94,526 sq mi
Population of U.K.: 60,209,500
GDP of U.K.: $1.833 trillion
Per Capita GDP: $30,470

Area of Iran: 636,372 sq mi
Population of Iran: 68,467,413
GDP of Iran: $554.8 billion
Per Capita GDP: $7,980

I hardly think a lack of nuclear weapons is to blame for the severely deficient per capita numbers. Would that magically make Iran incredibly more productive? I'd think the ratioal thing would be to focus more on developing their education system and general infrastructure so as to improve productivity.

quote:

Originally posted by Purple Iran is dependent on countries who import oil from them and than export it back to Iran in refined form. They have it but still they cant use it, they rely on other countries for its supply. This Russia uranium enrichment scheme is exactly the same thing. They will be dependant on Russia all their lives for providing enriched uranium to them, to run their facilities and economy. Things dont work like this. You are running a country and not a company where you outsource your processes to other countries. Who will gaurantee them enriched uranium when Russia goes blank like they did with Ukraine recently? Or you want Iran to sit without electricity and energy till Russia starts enriching uranium again for them. Iran wants to be independant, and have an independant and reliable source of long term energy demands which is growing everyday.

You're explaining the exact same senario Japan was in right after WWII , and they were AT WAR with the U.S.
They import just about all their raw resources and they still became the world's second largest manufacurer in the world.
So why can't the Iranian government put their ego in check and let the world help them?

quote:

Size of UK: total: 244,820 sq km land: 241,590 sq km water: 3,230 sq km Size of France: total: 547,030 sq km land: 545,630 sq km water: 1,400 sq km Size for Germany: total: 357,021 sq km land: 349,223 sq km water: 7,798 sq km Area of Iran: total: 1.648 million sq km land: 1.636 million sq km water: 12,000 sq km Iran roughly adds up to UK, France and Germany combined...thats how big it is. Iran is a big country; with good established industries. It share borders with 7 different countries.. and a good amount of trade is done (export-import) with other countries in Middle East. It has one of the best manufactoring base. Iran in Middle East is like what US is in West. Its not like in Afhanistan, North Korea, or sactions crippled Iraq. And hitting Iran will hit and effect whole of Middle East commercially.. it will bring down economy of many small countries in Middle East and hit directly their people lives too... like making everything very expensive.. bread, clothes, grocery etc.. basic amenities of life.. life is already hard after all this trash talk, it will just make things more tougher for these guys.. everyday life...

This just solidifies my arguement about hydroelectric dams.
They obviously have the space; hell even solar farms would go nicely there.
Nuclear options are out of the question until their leadership does a 180 or changes...

They dont have any rivers to build dams on, and terrain is mountaneous and rugged, not practical for solar farms.. solar panels BTW suck; they need power for big factories.. not lighting bulbs at home.. you need steady reliable source for that...

quote:

Originally posted by Shakka Comments about wanting to eradicate Israel would indicate offensive motives, no?

Ok so you think that if Iran had nuclear missiles they would launch them at Israel? Can you think of any problems that might cause Iran? That, you know, might make them not want to do that?

quote:

Originally posted by George Smiley Ok so you think that if Iran had nuclear missiles they would launch them at Israel?

Yup.

quote:

Can you think of any problems that might cause Iran? That, you know, might make them not want to do that?

Can we have this in English?

Problems? A couple of UN resolutions isnt exactly considered problematic for Iran. Hell, Israel returning fire with Nukes of its own and completly obliteratiing Iran doesent even trouble them too much.

quote:

Originally posted by dennis Problems? A couple of UN resolutions isnt exactly considered problematic for Iran. Hell, Israel returning fire with Nukes of its own and completly obliteratiing Iran doesent even trouble them too much.

And you're basing that on...?

quote:

Originally posted by Fir3start3r Yup

And where does MAD enter your theory? In fact, can you give me the pros and cons for Iran, assuming your theory is correct?

quote:

Can we have this in English?

Sorry I forgot you might read that. How exactly can I simplify that quote so that even you can understand it? Hmmmm...ok...

What problems would Iran encounter if they launched nuclear bombs at Israel...and do you think those problems (assuming you think there are any?) would deter Iran from pursuing such an act? (note the word "deter")

quote:

Originally posted by George Smiley And you're basing that on...?

Just logic.
This is another thread poster here earlier:
http://www.tranceaddict.com/forums/...12&pagenumber=1
Now, I know this is an opinion based article, but I really beleive it brings up interesting points, and I think you should at least look it over. A leader so blatantly against Israel to the point of coming out in public and constantly stating that he will erradicate it leads me to beleive that he is one of these fundamentalist leaders, who disregards the lives of Israelies just as much as he disregards his own citizens.
"Allah will know his own"? COME ON....

quote:

Originally posted by George Smiley What problems would Iran encounter if they launched nuclear bombs at Israel...and do you think those problems (assuming you think there are any?) would deter Iran from pursuing such an act? (note the word "deter")

Quite a few, but there is a sociopath at the helm who is determined to violate a global treaty.

quote:

Originally posted by Shakka Land mass means squat other than they have that much more potential oil beneath them making them potentially that much more rich in a naturally occurring energy source. Ever heard of Alaska? Why don't they build some oil refineries? God knows it's a much safer business than building nuclear reactors. Area of France: 260,558 sq. mi Population of France: 63,587,700 GDP of France: $1.830 trillion Per capita GDP: $29,316 Area of Germany: 137,858 sq mi Population of Germany: 82,438,000 GDP of Germany: $2.522 trillion Per Capita GDP: $30,579 Area of Japan: 145,883 sq mi Population of Japan: 128,085,000 GDP of Japan: $3.911 trillion Per capita GDP: $30,615 Area of Belgium: 11,787 sq mi Population of Belgium: 10,419,000 GDP of Belgium: $316.2 billion Per capita GDP: $29,707 Area of the U.S.: 3,718,695 sq mi Population of U.S.: 299,102,661 GDP of U.S.: $12.28 trillion Per Capita GDP: $41,399 Area of U.K.: 94,526 sq mi Population of U.K.: 60,209,500 GDP of U.K.: $1.833 trillion Per Capita GDP: $30,470 Area of Iran: 636,372 sq mi Population of Iran: 68,467,413 GDP of Iran: $554.8 billion Per Capita GDP: $7,980 I hardly think a lack of nuclear weapons is to blame for the severely deficient per capita numbers. Would that magically make Iran incredibly more productive? I'd think the ratioal thing would be to focus more on developing their education system and general infrastructure so as to improve productivity.

Lack of electricity is a deterrent of foreign investment in industry, and also hikes costs of having industries in the country. In my country we have that problem of not having reliable electricity, so people have to invest in power plants and gas for them, or other forms of back up power that is used very frequently. Because of these situations alot of investment does not come into the country, and we have been told this directly by people wanting to invest. I dont know what the exact situation is with power generation in Iran, but i can tell you first hand that having a steady power supply is as important as improving the education system, and i would actually lump it in with 'general infrastructure'.

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