It's been said about 100 times in this thread that steel loses its strength at higher temperatures
Posted by colonelcrisp on May-19-2007 20:39:
600 to 800 degrees C will turn steel into gumbi.
Mr S, as a certified welder, you should know as well as i do how steel behaves at higher temperatures.
Posted by xstalkrx on May-20-2007 00:20:
fucking c00ks...
Posted by MrSquirrel on May-20-2007 00:49:
quote:
Originally posted by colonelcrisp
600 to 800 degrees C will turn steel into gumbi.
Mr S, as a certified welder, you should know as well as i do how steel behaves at higher temperatures.
I do.
My original post was a response to the truthers, not to those who know how steel reacts.
You and Krypton are accusing me of having a position I do not have, in fact you are accusing me of supporting an asinine argument that is contrary to what I know from both a theoretical and observational experience.
I did not go into detail because it has been stated before in this thread, and it is a tired argument. Just as the tired argument that the WTC towers could not have fallen because the internal skeleton could not have possibly been damaged that much, when in fact, the towers had no internal structural skeleton, the outer walls were the ONLY vertical load members holding up the floors.
MrS
Posted by shevchenko135 on May-20-2007 02:19:
It was clearely a set-up. No one can deny it. 911 set off a chain reaction of events afganisten(which everyone was behind because of 911) this war on terror then went to iraq which we knew from the begining was a load of bullshit. All this is the begining of the NWO. New World Order, I see this now as the United Nations and U.S acting as a police state for the whole world.
Posted by culorut on May-20-2007 02:51:
quote:
do you know why i discredit the "eye witness" testimony of a janitor? because he heard something..... if your in the woods and you hear a loud bang can you honestly say it was a gunshot or maybe it was a firecracker. my point is alot of the time people will fill in the blanks to make some stimulus make sense to them. ie they heard a bang, it was an explosion.... not only that but janitors dont have the best track record for being the sharpest tools in the shed.....
and further more, weather or not there were or were not basement explosions, the buildings collapsed from the top down not the bottom up.
He was not the only one who heard explosions for starters. He carried out victims which had their skin missing from their bodies yet the planes struck 70-80 floors above them. Yes he was a janitor but how the f**k do you know how smart he is? I know a few custodians personally, they make plenty of money and are very bright people. Very weak argument you have going on this one.
quote:
your out of your league on this one. loose change is about as factually acurate as a michael moore film... they show the footage and interviews that support their weak conclusions... its not objective at all.
frankly a bunch of web dorks armed with youtube and google videos is a mere fart in the wind compared to the studies and findings of the ASCE (american society of civil engineers) their independant sudy came to the same conclusions as the FEMA report. and in my mind that satisfys the issue.
And the NIST/FEMA/ASCE all conducted their reports and studies based on what information was given to them, what was not given to them to base their results on is what made all the difference. Hell NIST compiled an application to test what it would take to bring down the towers and could not make it happen using the real parameters, they had to use parameters far beyond what really occurred to make it happen.
1+2+WTC7+Removed Evidence+?+?+?=Inside Job
Posted by Sunsnail on May-20-2007 02:52:
I hear no bombs.
Posted by culorut on May-20-2007 03:58:
William Rodriguez, 9/11 Hero on Fox News. (finally)
Posted by Sunsnail on May-20-2007 04:19:
I want to hear what pkc has to say* about that.
Posted by culorut on May-20-2007 15:47:
What exactly can PKC say? No one has been able to say shit about William because they cannot.
Saying things like William Rodriguez does not have university diploma or pulling off colonolcrisps view that janitors are not the brightest people does not really count.
Rodriguez is smart, brave and saved hundreds of lives on 9/11. He has been blacked out from the media until just recently because they cannot afford to do it anymore, he is real and cannot be ignored.
Listen to yourself and make a decision. A few hard headed individuals who like to run their mouth off before thinking should not be taken into consideration.
Posted by _Ocean_Drive_ on May-20-2007 18:20:
quote:
Originally posted by culorut
William Rodriguez, 9/11 Hero on Fox News. (finally)
Thanks for the link.
Posted by pkcRAISTLIN on May-20-2007 23:23:
quote:
Originally posted by Sunsnail
I want to hear what pkc has to say* about that.
i havent watched this particular video, but i have watched a couple of others given by rodriguez.
i would like all those that might be in the middle on this issue to pay special attention to the "evidence" the "truthers" hinge far too much of their opinion on. this is ONE man's perspective of what happened on that terrible day. he is indeed a hero, but certainly hasn't ever said anything remotely "closed" from an evidenciary perspective. lots of people heard "explosions" on that day, but seriously, what do people expect a building that has been hit by a big plane and a huge fire to do? think about several floors of an office buildings that suddenly have several supporting floors taken away. think about your average office equipment and electrical structural integrity. there are so many things that could explode its ridiculous to equate explosions with explosives, especially since there isn't a single bit of corrobatory evidence.
rodriguez can only state what he saw and heard inside the building. his first testimonies i saw didn't say ANYTHING about explosions before the airlcraft struck either tower. perhaps his memory is getting better as time goes on and the truthers help him remember indeed, in the video that shaolin posted he didnt say a single thing that pointed towards explosives. the simple fact that explosives would not have been used in the way that truthers believe is evidence enough for me. explosions are not used at the base of a structure to engender a top-down collapse, 40-60 minutes AFTER the aircraft hit. its just a ludicrous assumption. im no expert like colonel but just use your common sense kids!!
rodriguez pulled people out that were "on fire", that's what melted their skin. explosives, as a general rule, dont create flame. they shatter supporting infrastructure. people THAT close to an explosive used in detonation would not have had "melted skin", they would have been blown into little pieces . again, just a little common sense goes a long way. put a firecracker in your hand an see if it melts your hand, or blows the fvcker off
too much of the truth move relies upon belief and interpretative evidence at minute zero, rather than a wholistic picture garnered in the aftermath. conspiracy theories are bred in conditions where panic and confusion are running supreme. they rely on the completely subjective and conflicting testimony that seem to fit their already-conceived notions, rather than dig through ALL the evidence available in the weeks/months/years after the event. putting so much weight into a single janitor's beliefs (though he's not a janitor now, he's a mini celebrity) isn't good science. they will quote someone like rodriguez ad nauseum, talk about "pre-demo explosives" (whatever they are, they certainly arent used by ANY demo firm in the world) but ignore the scientific impossibilities that such an opinion carry with it. just more bad science
at the end of the day, its pretty easy to see that IF this was a real american government conspiracy, they would have undoubtedly have gotten caught. if there really was substantive, unequivocal evidence, do you really think the world's engineers, scientists, media and opposing political forces would not have figured it out? this idea that theres only a few internet detectives that know the real truth is laughable in the extreme. if you piece together all the conspiracy theories (i have yet to see a single, wholistic approach from any CTer that explains everything that happened on that day) you are forced to swallow the most outlandish notions ever conceived, ignore common-sense at every turn, in favour of a theory that just doesn't make any sense at all.
what i find really confusing (in the extreme) is why these people believe it was necessary to take all the time (it would have taken MONTHS of preparation to wire those towers- a fact completely ignored by the crazies) to place explosives in the buildings, when hijacking several planes and crashing them into buildings would have been enough to engender exactly the same response (iraq & afghanistan) without anywhere near the risks. common sense. none of the conspiracy makes sense on any level. you have to have a deep-seated need to believe.
Posted by pkcRAISTLIN on May-20-2007 23:23:
quote:
Originally posted by Sunsnail
I want to hear what pkc has to say* about that.
i havent watched this particular video, but i have watched a couple of others given by rodriguez.
i would like all those that might be in the middle on this issue to pay special attention to the "evidence" the "truthers" hinge far too much of their opinion on. this is ONE man's perspective of what happened on that terrible day. he is indeed a hero, but certainly hasn't ever said anything remotely "closed" from an evidenciary perspective. lots of people heard "explosions" on that day, but seriously, what do people expect a building that has been hit by a big plane and a huge fire to do? think about several floors of an office buildings that suddenly have several supporting floors taken away. think about your average office equipment and electrical structural integrity. there are so many things that could explode its ridiculous to equate explosions with explosives, especially since there isn't a single bit of corrobatory evidence.
rodriguez can only state what he saw and heard inside the building. his first testimonies i saw didn't say ANYTHING about explosions before the airlcraft struck either tower. perhaps his memory is getting better as time goes on and the truthers help him remember indeed, in the video that shaolin posted he didnt say a single thing that pointed towards explosives. the simple fact that explosives would not have been used in the way that truthers believe is evidence enough for me. explosions are not used at the base of a structure to engender a top-down collapse, 40-60 minutes AFTER the aircraft hit. its just a ludicrous assumption. im no expert like colonel but just use your common sense kids!!
rodriguez pulled people out that were "on fire", that's what melted their skin. explosives, as a general rule, dont create flame. they shatter supporting infrastructure. people THAT close to an explosive used in detonation would not have had "melted skin", they would have been blown into little pieces . again, just a little common sense goes a long way. put a firecracker in your hand an see if it melts your hand, or blows the fvcker off
too much of the truth move relies upon belief and interpretative evidence at minute zero, rather than a wholistic picture garnered in the aftermath. conspiracy theories are bred in conditions where panic and confusion are running supreme. they rely on the completely subjective and conflicting testimony that seem to fit their already-conceived notions, rather than dig through ALL the evidence available in the weeks/months/years after the event. putting so much weight into a single janitor's beliefs (though he's not a janitor now, he's a mini celebrity) isn't good science. they will quote someone like rodriguez ad nauseum, talk about "pre-demo explosives" (whatever they are, they certainly arent used by ANY demo firm in the world) but ignore the scientific impossibilities that such an opinion carry with it. just more bad science
at the end of the day, its pretty easy to see that IF this was a real american government conspiracy, they would have undoubtedly have gotten caught. if there really was substantive, unequivocal evidence, do you really think the world's engineers, scientists, media and opposing political forces would not have figured it out? this idea that theres only a few internet detectives that know the real truth is laughable in the extreme. if you piece together all the conspiracy theories (i have yet to see a single, wholistic approach from any CTer that explains everything that happened on that day) you are forced to swallow the most outlandish notions ever conceived, ignore common-sense at every turn, in favour of a theory that just doesn't make any sense at all.
what i find really confusing (in the extreme) is why these people believe it was necessary to take all the time (it would have taken MONTHS of preparation to wire those towers- a fact completely ignored by the crazies) to place explosives in the buildings, when hijacking several planes and crashing them into buildings would have been enough to engender exactly the same response (iraq & afghanistan) without anywhere near the risks. common sense. none of the conspiracy makes sense on any level. you have to have a deep-seated need to believe.
Posted by _Ocean_Drive_ on May-21-2007 08:49:
quote:
Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
what i find really confusing (in the extreme) is why these people believe it was necessary to take all the time (it would have taken MONTHS of preparation to wire those towers- a fact completely ignored by the crazies) to place explosives in the buildings, when hijacking several planes and crashing them into buildings would have been enough to engender exactly the same response (iraq & afghanistan) without anywhere near the risks. common sense. none of the conspiracy makes sense on any level. you have to have a deep-seated need to believe.
There are some testimonies of WTC brokers, bankers etc who said that several months before 9/11, there were frequent power-downs and evactuations of the buildings, evacuations except for some people who wouldn't tell anyone who they worked for etc...
Posted by colonelcrisp on May-21-2007 15:04:
quote:
Originally posted by _Ocean_Drive_
There are some testimonies of WTC brokers, bankers etc who said that several months before 9/11, there were frequent power-downs and evactuations of the buildings, evacuations except for some people who wouldn't tell anyone who they worked for etc...
even with those "suspicious events" it would have taken in excess of 3000 miles of det cord, about 8000 delay devices, not to mention the amount of demoition on each floor to place the charges.
and PKC, explosives will cause burns... its not from a fire ball, unless its a petrol bomb, but an explosive is a rappidly expanding cloud of hot gases.
but appart from bombs, lets see what other devices are located in teh subteranean portions of skyscrapers taht could cause similar consequences.... now as the CT'ers above have pointed out, there were numerous blackouts and powerdowns in teh weeks leading up to 911.... well most large buildings have their transformers in teh basement. to work on the transformer youi have to power down the building. and if they were working on it that means there was something wrong with it and when a transformer fails.... it greates large showers of sparks, fireballs and lare pools of flame from teh oil boiling in the transformer tanks. video of transformer failure
a building as large as the WTC 1 and 2 towers would have had a transformer substation of similar size located int eh basement. the exlplosion alegedly heard by rodriguez could have easily been a transformer failing.
frankly far more likely than a bomb
Posted by pkcRAISTLIN on May-21-2007 22:53:
thanks for the correction colonel! but if someone was in close promiximity to TNT or RDX, theres still a good chance they would get blown to pieces, yes?
and ocean drive- "frequent" powerdowns still doesn't equate with months worth of hours, which is what would have been necessary to plant explosive devices. i would also be interested in hearing which PRIVATE contracting firm was used to carry this out, since the people capable of carrying out what would be the world record for implosion all work for private demo firms.
quote:
With the press of a button at 5:47 PM on October 24, 1998, Detroit Mayor Dennis Archer dropped the J.L. Hudson Department Store from his city�s skyline and into the history books and record books.
Hudson�s was the tallest department store in the country and was second in square footage only to Macy�s anchor Store in New York. It dominated the retail market in the city through the 1970�s before closing its doors in 1983.
...
Under CDI direction, Homrich/NASDI�s 21 man crew needed three months to investigate the complex and four months to complete preparations for CDI�s implosion design. During that period, the lower two basements of the structure were filled with engineered fill and the perimeter basement walls bermed to 1st basement level with soil to support perimeter walls which would surely have failed under soil and hydrostatic loads once the horizontal support of the Hudson�s internal structure was removed by the implosion.
...
CDI�s 12 person loading crew took twenty four days to place 4,118 separate charges in 1,100 locations on columns on nine levels of the complex. Over 36,000 ft of detonating cord and 4,512 non-electric delay elements were installed in CDI�s implosion initiation system, some to create the 36 primary implosion sequence and another 216 micro-delays to keep down the detonation overpressure from the 2,728 lb of explosives which would be detonated during the demolition.
^^ see how much time and effort a building a lot smaller took? id really like to know where the government hid the thousands of feet of detonating cable too...
Posted by _Ocean_Drive_ on May-21-2007 23:23:
quote:
Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
thanks for the correction colonel! but if someone was in close promiximity to TNT or RDX, theres still a good chance they would get blown to pieces, yes?
and ocean drive- "frequent" powerdowns still doesn't equate with months worth of hours, which is what would have been necessary to plant explosive devices. i would also be interested in hearing which PRIVATE contracting firm was used to carry this out, since the people capable of carrying out what would be the world record for implosion all work for private demo firms.
^^ see how much time and effort a building a lot smaller took? id really like to know where the government hid the thousands of feet of detonating cable too...
Perhaps my post wasn't clear enough, but I meant over the period of those "several months" there were power-downs. Does that give enough time?
Posted by pkcRAISTLIN on May-21-2007 23:29:
quote:
Originally posted by _Ocean_Drive_
Perhaps my post wasn't clear enough, but I meant over the period of those "several months" there were power-downs. Does that give enough time?
not unless those powerdowns lasted several months, which they obviously didn't.
Posted by colonelcrisp on May-22-2007 14:42:
quote:
Originally posted by _Ocean_Drive_
Perhaps my post wasn't clear enough, but I meant over the period of those "several months" there were power-downs. Does that give enough time?
its that little fact of the "where to put the 1234123565145612 feet of det cord" that still negates your argument....
although i do recall a martha stewart show where she highlighted some design tips to turn your det cord trunk lines into a "good thing"
Posted by culorut on May-22-2007 16:24:
quote:
Originally posted by colonelcrisp
its that little fact of the "where to put the 1234123565145612 feet of det cord" that still negates your argument....
although i do recall a martha stewart show where she highlighted some design tips to turn your det cord trunk lines into a "good thing"
Yes because you really know exactly what type of explosives/charges where actually used in taking down the towers.
Posted by MrSquirrel on May-22-2007 16:49:
quote:
Originally posted by culorut
Yes because you really know exactly what type of explosives/charges where actually used in taking down the towers.
Yes, I do.
There were NO explosive charges used to bring the towers down.
Unless you consider gravity to be an explosive.
MrS
Posted by colonelcrisp on May-22-2007 17:40:
quote:
Originally posted by culorut
Yes because you really know exactly what type of explosives/charges where actually used in taking down the towers.
despite what you learn from hollywood movies..... you cant accomplish controlled demo with remote explosives. large shock waves tend to fuck up electronics....... each charge has to detonate at a certain time interval from the previous charge to create the desired effect, these charges are closely spaced and delayed by miliseconds to cause the building to cave inwards. Furthermore, controlled demolition has never been attempted on buildings even close to the size of the twin towers, and if public demolition experts and professionals havent accomplished this yet, what makes you think the US gov could pull it of?.
furthermore, dumbass, it still doesnt adress the fact that no mater how covert your operatives are, its pretty fucking hard to hide thousands of charges in a building full of civilians.....
Posted by colonelcrisp on May-22-2007 17:41:
quote:
Originally posted by MrSquirrel
Yes, I do.
There were NO explosive charges used to bring the towers down.
Unless you consider gravity to be an explosive.
MrS
well newtonian gravity sure is explosive.... einstein blew that theory right out of the water lol
Posted by culorut on May-22-2007 18:55:
Well the evidence is there so it means thermate was present. How much of it exactly is not known yet but keep talking shit if you want.
9/11 Debunkers Hide From Slam Dunk Evidence Of Controlled Demolition
Electron microscope analysis of steel spheres from WTC site proves thermate, proves collapse of twin towers was an act of deliberate arson.
Professor Steven Jones presented brand new and compelling evidence for the controlled demolition of the twin towers and WTC 7 recently, but the 9/11 debunkers and the corporate media are loathe to tackle it because it represents a slam dunk on proving the collapse of the buildings was a deliberate act of arson.
During a talk at the Rebuilding America's Senses event at the University of Texas last month, Jones laid out facts about steel samples recovered from the WTC site that Popular Mechanics dare not even attempt to debate. Debunkers are scared to even get near this information because the science behind it fundamentally contradicts the official story of what happened on 9/11.
Jones detailed his lab experiments in which he attempted to replicate NIST's conclusion that the lava like orange material flowing out of the south tower is aluminum from Flight 175, the plane that hit the building. Jones clearly documents the fact that liquid aluminum is silver and not orange as is seen in the video of the south tower, therefore the material cannot be aluminum. Jones then explains that the material is in fact a compound that can cut through steel like a hot knife through butter, thermite with sulphur added to make thermate.
Originally posted by culorut
Well the evidence is there so it means thermate was present. How much of it exactly is not known yet but keep talking shit if you want.
9/11 Debunkers Hide From Slam Dunk Evidence Of Controlled Demolition
Electron microscope analysis of steel spheres from WTC site proves thermate, proves collapse of twin towers was an act of deliberate arson.
Professor Steven Jones presented brand new and compelling evidence for the controlled demolition of the twin towers and WTC 7 recently, but the 9/11 debunkers and the corporate media are loathe to tackle it because it represents a slam dunk on proving the collapse of the buildings was a deliberate act of arson.
During a talk at the Rebuilding America's Senses event at the University of Texas last month, Jones laid out facts about steel samples recovered from the WTC site that Popular Mechanics dare not even attempt to debate. Debunkers are scared to even get near this information because the science behind it fundamentally contradicts the official story of what happened on 9/11.
Jones detailed his lab experiments in which he attempted to replicate NIST's conclusion that the lava like orange material flowing out of the south tower is aluminum from Flight 175, the plane that hit the building. Jones clearly documents the fact that liquid aluminum is silver and not orange as is seen in the video of the south tower, therefore the material cannot be aluminum. Jones then explains that the material is in fact a compound that can cut through steel like a hot knife through butter, thermite with sulphur added to make thermate.
steven jones' staggering credentials (does the phrase "cold fusion scandal" ring a bell?) and the fact that he lost his professorship due to his crack pot ideas pretty much casts out any scientific merrit his theories or proof displays... but lets look at this further....
thermite is a mixture of iron oxide (rust), which steel structures have plenty of, and aluminum which an office building has loads of to begin with let alone the fact taht you had a 727 parked on one of the floors.... so those two components mixed together make thermite... the only concievable way to prove the presence of a thermate reaction is to identify the trace elements of the catalysts... barium nitrate and sulphur. both of which are relatively widely used chemicals, barium nitrate in electronics and sulphur in a whole manner of things, one of which being natural gas to give it an identifiable odour.
and according to your sleuth like google abilities... steven jones debunked all rational explinations by melting a piece of aluminum in the lab and declaring "my god it is white when it melts". well color of liquid metals depends on their temperature and the impurities present. so without testing actual samples... you will never know what it was. Secondly, his rational that thermate was present is stated merely by the fact taht the liquid metal was orange. yet again another example of irrefutable proof by steven jones.
Furthermore, steven jones, the grandfather of coldfusion (snicker....), has yet to explain how the thermite was able to cut columns........ thermite burns through metal due to gravity, its not like your daddys chainsaw.... in order to have it cut sideways you would have to turn gravity sideways.... beyond that fact, thermite doesnt cut through 1 inch steel very quickly... it would take alot of thermite a long time.
the liquid metal found at ground zero after the colapse is most likely, and infact undoubtedly the byproduct of thermal oxygen cutting of columns and beams by the clean up crews. basically in laymens terms, when you thermaly oxy cut steel it produces liquid iron as a byproduct. essentially its super rapid oxidation. anyways. thermate / thermite is a dead moot issue... please pick the next obscure and random theory for me to test......
indeed, in the video that shaolin posted he didnt say a single thing that pointed towards explosives. the simple fact that explosives would not have been used in the way that truthers believe is evidence enough for me. explosions are not used at the base of a structure to engender a top-down collapse, 40-60 minutes AFTER the aircraft hit. its just a ludicrous assumption. im no expert like colonel but just use your common sense kids!! 
