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-- there is no G-d? religion is bull? read this and I DARE YOU TO ARGUE :)
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Ugh!

Good God (pun intended), why does it even matter whether the universe was created by an intelligent being or was a probabilistic "fluke"?

In either case, the only thing that is certain is that it exists, and that you are alive, right now, right here. Isn't that enough?

I can yap all day about whether I believe in God or whether I believe in the god of Probability, but in the end, it's all philosophizing, and philosophy is all just going in circles; it never gets you anywhere.

In search of the 'sublime', origins of the universe, end of the universe, "mysteries of the universe", etc. etc., we keep missing the present moment. That is all that is really available to us, all that is ultimately real, and thus the only thing that matters.

My quick $0.02.

i have not read the whole thread, im wondering if you have touched on:

superstring theory

and an eternal soul versus noesis / cognitive operation

something interesting i received in my email

http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99994174

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researchers believe these curious spheres may offer a radical new explanation for how life began.

And here is a little article for the creationists that believe the earth is 5000 years old ;p

http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99994175

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The discovery of the world's oldest genitals proves that little has changed over the last 400 million years - at least for daddy-long-legs.

Re: Ugh!

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Originally posted by Alccode Good God (pun intended), why does it even matter whether the universe was created by an intelligent being or was a probabilistic "fluke"?

Why it would matter would depend on what your views are.

For me it *doesn't* matter in an abstract sense, but I enjoy thinking about the possibilities, and because I enjoy it, I continue to do so, that's enough for me.

The question matters even more to theists because most theists seem to believe not only that God(s)(ess)(etc.) created the universe, but that they care about humanity, and are willing to reward based on the following of various sets of rules.

As a result, in a certain sense it's important for everyone to at least evaluate the arguments of both sides at some point in their life just to get piece of mind; either in the form of "I feel this religion is correct, and now I can live assured that I'll make it to paradise" or from a "Life has no inherent meaning, so I don't need to worry about spending a lot of time on theology for anything other than amusement" which is my stance.

There are countless other stances of course, but going further would be flogging the person who's flogging the dead horse.

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In either case, the only thing that is certain is that it exists, and that you are alive, right now, right here. Isn't that enough?

That entirely depends on who you are, and what your views are. If you're only interested in the present, and you're good with that I don't have any issues, but it seems as though you have a problem with us going about *our* business...

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I can yap all day about whether I believe in God or whether I believe in the god of Probability, but in the end, it's all philosophizing, and philosophy is all just going in circles; it never gets you anywhere.

I heartily disagree.

Philosophy in and of itself is a worthwhile endeavor as it allows us to more fully know ourselves, and to confront views that we have without any logical basis.

How many people do you know who believe in something, and can't articulate why beyond the typical "I just do!" response?

Personally, I enjoy more fully exploring my views and the views of other philosophy minded people, if it's not your thing, no big deal, but why bitch to us about something that we're obviously enjoying?

Re: Re: Ugh!

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Originally posted by CortexBomb but it seems as though you have a problem with us going about *our* business...

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but why bitch to us about something that we're obviously enjoying?

It's unfortunate you saw my post as "bitching" -- which was not the intention at all.

If I was "against" this discussion or any discussion, why would I even participate? What is the point of coming in and saying "this is wrong?" or "This is a waste of time?" Who am I to say that? Who am I even to say that what I think is "right" is the objective "truth"?

My tone is the way I present my arguments. Again, I personally tend not to philosophize in my posts, but rather to use an "in-your-face" tone. That is not to say I slander things about and generally talk nonsense; that is simply the way I choose to express myself.

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I heartily disagree.

Good.

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Philosophy in and of itself is a worthwhile endeavor as it allows us to more fully know ourselves, and to confront views that we have without any logical basis. How many people do you know who believe in something, and can't articulate why beyond the typical "I just do!" response?

I don't quite understand that last part -- are you trying to say that philosophy enables people to express why they have the beliefs that they do, or are you saying that it is because of philosophy that they can't?

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Personally, I enjoy more fully exploring my views and the views of other philosophy minded people

And I say, you cannot understand reality through the human mind, and through language. Language is always an approximation; words are meant to represent certain meanings or, rather, our interpretations of certain things; they cannot be what they are representing. The word "tree" and an actual tree are two very, very different things. The word is just a construct of the mind -- a shadowy, impermanent thought; but an actual tree, the experience of a tree, is existence, is "truth."

Language is useful as a tool for survival, yes, and for communication -- expressing that you are hungry to your parent(s) or coordinating group actions during a hunt or selling food at the marketplace -- but it is not a good tool for grasping reality.

And, again, reality (the here-now) is all that matters, to the point of sounding tedious!

But in a way you were right about "bitching", CortexBomb -- in a way I am bitching -- and rightly so. This thread is already a lengthy 4 pages (in my browser), and what has been concluded? What has been accomplished?

But those are rhetorical questions -- indeed, what has ever been concluded about anything? People have been arguing about "God" and life and countless other things, for thousands of years. Surely, by now, any sane mind would realize that opinions and arguments are completely useless, and that something else is at work in this world -- that somehow we as a human race are basically missing the fundamentals of life, which is hollering at us and pounding at us 24/7. Yet we turn away, and talk and talk. If one understands even slightly how the human mind works, that one would see that "beliefs" and "opinions" are just thoughts, are just our own constructs. They do not have any real substance to them. If I am born a Muslim, why should I be following Islam for my entire life? I could just as easily have been born a Christian. Or an atheist. Then who is right? Who is wrong?

It's all pointless! Nobody is right or wrong, there is no God, there is no point to life. Why should there be? It's because of how our intellect works that we must assume a "cause" and a "purpose" to anything and everything. Can we not settle on "purposeless"?

But... Devil's advocate: Then why am I arguing about the lack of a point to life, that is just as bad as believing in God. Again, that is just imposing one's views on another.

You know, I don't even know myself why I come in here sometimes. It seems fruitful and at the same time a waste.

What I said, take it as you will. Even that is just words. What I want to say is that, you can say I am right, and I will agree with you, or you can say I'm wrong, and I will equally agree with you. But that won't change anything.

Re: Re: Re: Ugh!

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Originally posted by Alccode If I was "against" this discussion or any discussion, why would I even participate? What is the point of coming in and saying "this is wrong?" or "This is a waste of time?" Who am I to say that? Who am I even to say that what I think is "right" is the objective "truth"? My tone is the way I present my arguments. Again, I personally tend not to philosophize in my posts, but rather to use an "in-your-face" tone. That is not to say I slander things about and generally talk nonsense; that is simply the way I choose to express myself.

Yes, unsurprisingly, a confrontational tone can make one come across that way, especially on the internet where we have to impart most emotions into the words with our imagination since we can't see the other person.

And who are you to say you're right? You're a sentient being that hopefully has spent some time thinking about this at some point in time. If you don't have an opinion that you're firm in then yes, why *are* you getting involved? Clearly this isn't the case though, you *do* have an opinion on things, so why try to say that you don't?

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I don't quite understand that last part -- are you trying to say that philosophy enables people to express why they have the beliefs that they do, or are you saying that it is because of philosophy that they can't?

Actually I'm saying that Philosophy not only enables people to express why they have the beliefs that they do, but that it also allows people to understand why they have the beliefs that they do, which I think is much more important.

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And I say, you cannot understand reality through the human mind, and through language. Language is always an approximation; words are meant to represent certain meanings or, rather, our interpretations of certain things; they cannot be what they are representing. The word "tree" and an actual tree are two very, very different things.

This is a couple of classical views, allow me to rebut, also classically.

Humans cannot think beyond the most basic, basic functions without the aid of language. So though it might be hindering your ability to think, it's also the only way that you know *how* to think, so I wouldn't be overly hasty in bashing it.

And many, myself included, would ask why objective reality matters when subjective reality is the only thing we'll ever experience.

And if one acknowledges that subjective reality is all we'll ever experience, then the 'actual' tree become a footnote while the tree that I'm thinking of becomes 'real' in all practical senses.

How exactly can one say that there's an objective reality out there definitively? We're fed information by our senses, as far as we can tell, but in an objective sense it's impossible to solidly say that objective anything exists except in the realm of our imaginations. ie: As something to reference in conversation, but nothing that you could actually demonstrate...like math's imaginary numbers, they don't really, *really* exist, but they're useful as an aid for human understanding...and the fact that we envision them gives them a form of sorts, and hence an existence.

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And, again, reality (the here-now) is all that matters, to the point of sounding tedious!

Hold on a second here, are you trying to equate reality to this moment in space/time as opposed to the more traditional "World as it exists outside our senses" definition?

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But in a way you were right about "bitching", CortexBomb -- in a way I am bitching -- and rightly so. This thread is already a lengthy 4 pages (in my browser), and what has been concluded? What has been accomplished?

Who are you to say what's right, or that this conversation is long? Or that nothing has been accomplished?

I think you have the right to, but you seem to have conceded that you don't in your opening...

And discussions, especially in philosophy aren't about getting firm, final conclusions in the "We all agree sense"...philosophy is about having a lengthy discussion, going home and digesting everything that was said, and formulating your own views based on all of that.

Philosophy isn't about coming to definitive conclusions, it's about enjoying the back and forth, and the growing that occurs in the process.

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It's all pointless! Nobody is right or wrong, there is no God, there is no point to life. Why should there be? It's because of how our intellect works that we must assume a "cause" and a "purpose" to anything and everything. Can we not settle on "purposeless"?

Ah nihilism, the bulwark of modern civilization. Make sure to thank the modern German philosophers for your pluralistic nihilism.

I actually agree with you on a lot of points, I'm a firm believer in the fact that life has no purpose, and that at the end of it all we go back into non-existence, hence, there's no *good* reason to live in the objective sense.

That doesn't stop me from enjoying this, and continuing to want to live as a direct result, despite the fact that none of it has any meaning.

But no, people in general will *never* be able to settle on purposelessness. I, the socialist, will come across as incredibly elitist in saying this, but the masses by and large cannot, nor want to handle the truth as I perceive it, that life has no meaning.

People need something to cling to, they need a higher purpose, and let's face it, a lot of the lies religion pushes are very pretty, they dazzle the senses, and they make people feel secure and enjoy their lives more.

Yes, on the macro level I think religion is destructive, but on the micro it's beneficial to many people, and if it makes their lives better than why should we, who know that life has no meaning, want to take that away from them? There's no good reason to that I can see as it's not impacting my life in any significant way unless I want it to.

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But... Devil's advocate: Then why am I arguing about the lack of a point to life, that is just as bad as believing in God. Again, that is just imposing one's views on another.

Yes, this is a good point...I'm glad you're contradicting yourself in this though, it's been interesting.

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You know, I don't even know myself why I come in here sometimes. It seems fruitful and at the same time a waste. What I said, take it as you will. Even that is just words. What I want to say is that, you can say I am right, and I will agree with you, or you can say I'm wrong, and I will equally agree with you. But that won't change anything.

I don't know of any way of assimilating your points beyond taking it as I will, so yes, I'll do that

And yes, from your perspective that objective reality exists, and is something to be strived for, I'll agree with you, nothing has been changed.

But in my subjective reality things can be altered rather easily, so I'm glad you're taking the time to throw your views into this conversation that you degrade as overly long, and ultimately pointless.

Cheers.

Whoever wrote the original post is an idiot. If someone believes in Santa Claus and the tooth ferry we'd put them in a padded room. Yet we tolerate these religious freaks! Get your head out of your arse. The only reason you believe in God (the fact that you write G-d shows how brainwashed and pious you are) is because you are a brainless moron and believed everything your parents told you. Your arguments are totally silly. Take a course in probability and statistics. Try to comprehend the idea of conditional probabilities and also look at the idea of Bayesian statistics. Shit, how old are you man? You may have sat in a bology class but I don't think your brain was working the day they explained evolution. Even if there is a higher being, do you really think it is the God (G-d) that you read in your holy text? For crying out loud all religious texts are just a bunch of made up stories we wrote b/c we were primitive and needed a set of "rules" to help us understand the world and live peacefully together. (There's a simple game-theoretic explanation for the creation of religion, which is probably a good first approximation for why religion arose -- study game theory.) Why do I waste my breath? Some people are hopeless -- I know the dude who wrote the original message will never change cuz he's been brainwashed since childhood.

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Originally posted by aconcagua2002 Whoever wrote the original post is an idiot. If someone believes in Santa Claus and the tooth ferry we'd put them in a padded room. Yet we tolerate these religious freaks! Get your head out of your arse. The only reason you believe in God (the fact that you write G-d shows how brainwashed and pious you are) is because you are a brainless moron and believed everything your parents told you. Your arguments are totally silly. Take a course in probability and statistics. Try to comprehend the idea of conditional probabilities and also look at the idea of Bayesian statistics. Shit, how old are you man? You may have sat in a bology class but I don't think your brain was working the day they explained evolution. Even if there is a higher being, do you really think it is the God (G-d) that you read in your holy text? For crying out loud all religious texts are just a bunch of made up stories we wrote b/c we were primitive and needed a set of "rules" to help us understand the world and live peacefully together. (There's a simple game-theoretic explanation for the creation of religion, which is probably a good first approximation for why religion arose -- study game theory.) Why do I waste my breath? Some people are hopeless -- I know the dude who wrote the original message will never change cuz he's been brainwashed since childhood.

you have missed the point of why peolpe are religious (for the most part anyway) ...for me it has almost NOTHING to do with "rules" or trying to "live peacefully together" ... if you could understand the real reasons why people are religious (judging by your post it would almost be imposible for you to do so) then i would like to see your new argument as to why its bs.

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Originally posted by aconcagua2002 Whoever wrote the original post is an idiot. If someone believes in Santa Claus and the tooth ferry we'd put them in a padded room. Yet we tolerate these religious freaks! Get your head out of your arse. The only reason you believe in God (the fact that you write G-d shows how brainwashed and pious you are) is because you are a brainless moron and believed everything your parents told you. Your arguments are totally silly. Take a course in probability and statistics. Try to comprehend the idea of conditional probabilities and also look at the idea of Bayesian statistics. Shit, how old are you man? You may have sat in a bology class but I don't think your brain was working the day they explained evolution. Even if there is a higher being, do you really think it is the God (G-d) that you read in your holy text? For crying out loud all religious texts are just a bunch of made up stories we wrote b/c we were primitive and needed a set of "rules" to help us understand the world and live peacefully together. (There's a simple game-theoretic explanation for the creation of religion, which is probably a good first approximation for why religion arose -- study game theory.) Why do I waste my breath? Some people are hopeless -- I know the dude who wrote the original message will never change cuz he's been brainwashed since childhood.

If you claim someone to be ignorant, you fit in the same wagon, or worst Id say..

and like you said, Theories, Theories and Theories.. does that mean is a law?

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Whoever wrote the original post is an idiot. If someone believes in Santa Claus and the tooth ferry we'd put them in a padded room. Yet we tolerate these religious freaks! Get your head out of your arse. The only reason you believe in God (the fact that you write G-d shows how brainwashed and pious you are) is because you are a brainless moron and believed everything your parents told you. Your arguments are totally silly. Take a course in probability and statistics. Try to comprehend the idea of conditional probabilities and also look at the idea of Bayesian statistics. Shit, how old are you man? You may have sat in a bology class but I don't think your brain was working the day they explained evolution. Even if there is a higher being, do you really think it is the God (G-d) that you read in your holy text? For crying out loud all religious texts are just a bunch of made up stories we wrote b/c we were primitive and needed a set of "rules" to help us understand the world and live peacefully together. (There's a simple game-theoretic explanation for the creation of religion, which is probably a good first approximation for why religion arose -- study game theory.) Why do I waste my breath? Some people are hopeless -- I know the dude who wrote the original message will never change cuz he's been brainwashed since childhood.

100% Correct

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if you could understand the real reasons why people are religious

why people are religious:
- indoctrinated into believing it as a child
- afraid of death
- idiot
- weak of mind
- people who feel insignificant and need to be apart of something larger
- to have sex with young boys

Wow, that's a lot of religion bashing! Well, here's an interesting article on the behaviour of the big bang singularity and why it didn't immediately collapse into a super-massive black hole for anyone interested.

http://www.sciam.com/askexpert_ques...umber=1&catID=3

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Originally posted by occrider Wow, that's a lot of religion bashing!

Yes, I'm starting to like this discussion more and more

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Originally posted by tathi why people are religious: - indoctrinated into believing it as a child - afraid of death - idiot - weak of mind - people who feel insignificant and need to be apart of something larger - to have sex with young boys

crappo ...! now i have to respond to that


well in my case lets see...

why people are religious:
- indoctrinated into believing it as a child

nope sorry, i thought religion was bs as a child

- afraid of death

i dont know what you mean by this ...do you mean 'im afraid my life is going to be over so i believe in heaven to feel better' or 'im afraid of death because is it scary, and therefore need to be religious'

in either case i dont really think im afraid of death because i can say if i died right now i would have had no regrets, and i would have been able to say that before i became religious

- idiot

if you mean stupid person, then no... i am going to USC

- weak of mind

interesting it depend on what you mean by weak, weak mind meaning conformist, weak mind meaning idiot, or weak mind meaning fearful

- people who feel insignificant and need to be apart of something larger

i dont feel insignificant nor did i feel insignificant before i accepted god. (if thats what you meant)

- to have sex with young boys

yeah some people i guess... (not including me)




but still you havent found the reason...

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nope sorry, i thought religion was bs as a child

child is metaphorical for someone who has the credulity of an infant, like it or not you were indoctrinated as a child. I find it hard to believe that someone who knew the truth as a child could be proselytized when they are older

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if you mean stupid person, then no... i am going to USC

USC means nothing to me, i have trouble respecting the intellectual capacity of anyone religious, don't take it personally

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interesting it depend on what you mean by weak, weak mind meaning conformist, weak mind meaning idiot, or weak mind meaning fearful

weak of mind meaning christian ;-)

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but still you havent found the reason...

I havn't found your reason, to do that i need to know a little more about you

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Originally posted by tathi child is metaphorical for someone who has the credulity of an infant, like it or not you were indoctrinated as a child. I find it hard to believe that someone who knew the truth as a child could be proselytized when they are older USC means nothing to me, i have trouble respecting the intellectual capacity of anyone religious, don't take it personally weak of mind meaning christian ;-) I havn't found your reason, to do that i need to know a little more about you

So what are your opinion of people who have chosen to make the leap of faith in believing that there is a God of greater good, yet shun organized religion for all its faults and pretenses?

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Originally posted by tathi child is metaphorical for someone who has the credulity of an infant, like it or not you were indoctrinated as a child. I find it hard to believe that someone who knew the truth as a child could be proselytized when they are older

im assuming you mean 'truth' as in 'there is no god'. well if that�s the case then yeah, i thought going to church was bs i would literally yell at my mom to stop making me go, i thought the bible was bs ...even though i had never read any of it. and i thought god was bs because 'if he had all this power and love why wasn�t i rich, or why were there starving sick or homeless people?'

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USC means nothing to me,

the University of Southern California is imho the second most prestigious school on the west coast.

or is it because im religious, USC means nothing to you:

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i have trouble respecting the intellectual capacity of anyone religious, don't take it personally

I which case, no offence taken

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weak of mind meaning christian ;-)

it takes a lot stronger mind to have faith instead of fear, and it takes an even stronger mind to act in faith instead of fear.

(faith is not the "i am of the Christian faith" kind, its the "i have faith that this will work" or "i have faith in you", faith in my mind is sort of like the opposite of fear, doubt, and worry. to me it is trusting god, and that is hard to do)

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I havn�t found your reason, to do that i need to know a little more about you

ok

Is it just me or have people recetnly started bragging in almost every thread about how great universities they're attending or how smart they are?

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Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0 Is it just me or have people recetnly started bragging in almost every thread about how great universities they're attending or how smart they are?

True dat. Try the real world on for size - often times not much to brag about there! Oh well, guess that's why I'm going back to school for another degree

Gotta have somethin' to brag about damnit!

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Originally posted by tathi child is metaphorical for someone who has the credulity of an infant, like it or not you were indoctrinated as a child. I find it hard to believe that someone who knew the truth as a child could be proselytized when they are older USC means nothing to me, i have trouble respecting the intellectual capacity of anyone religious, don't take it personally weak of mind meaning christian ;-) I havn't found your reason, to do that i need to know a little more about you

You're an idiot. Have fun doing well in life.

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Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0 Is it just me or have people recetnly started bragging in almost every thread about how great universities they're attending or how smart they are?

USC 4 LIFE!

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Originally posted by tathi I wish it were the case that people's opinion could be swayed by reason alone, that factual evidence would be the basis for belief. Religion is what is wrong in todays world, it's a disease, it infects the minds of the dumb and ignorant, what's worse is the disease is not terminal. In the past religion may have had some credibility, a way for despots to control the idiot masses, add 5000 years and you have an insidious corrupt money hungry facade. Propaganda / marketing / spreading the faith, it's all the same bullshit, only the simplistic of mind fall for it. Christianity / judiasm / islam / hindu: They are all a pathetic amalgamation of retired religions, a syncretic blend of past forms of faith that have failed. The only reason these conceptual ideologies are still in business is that they threaten their drones with "eternal hellfire" in case they leave. If there was no such thing as Satan (or its equivalent in other religions) would there even be religion in todays world? I believe Robert Heinlein has provided us with some very good insight into what places of worship will be like in the future. Pubs, Poker Machines and Prostitution. The only difference between churches now and his speculative view of churches in the future, is that now the christian church is a brothel were seedy old men can sodomise underage boys. I bet Robert didn't see that one coming. Man created god in his own image

Couldn't have said it better then that....

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Occrider So what are your opinion of people who have chosen to make the leap of faith in believing that there is a God of greater good, yet shun organized religion for all its faults and pretenses?

I have nothing against deists

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Bondor or is it because im religious, USC means nothing to you:

It's because i've never heard of it

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Bondor it takes a lot stronger mind to have faith instead of fear, and it takes an even stronger mind to act in faith instead of fear. (faith is not the "i am of the Christian faith" kind, its the "i have faith that this will work" or "i have faith in you", faith in my mind is sort of like the opposite of fear, doubt, and worry. to me it is trusting god, and that is hard to do)

So you believe the opposite of faith is fear, fear of what? Concepts like Satan and Hell? Wouldn't it take a stronger mind to realise that they are just concepts and laugh at them, rather than follow the collective will of your herd? From what i have read, you have given me the reason why you are religious, you are afraid, you believe that without your 'god' you would be full of fear, doubt and worry (at being an individual?)

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Orbax You're an idiot. Have fun doing well in life.

Hahaha, i love it when people call me an idiot, especially by christians, being called a christian is an insult where i am from, maybe you should call me a christian and not an idiot, i would take more offense

and i am doing very very well in life

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Che Couldn't have said it better then that....

;p

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Originally posted by tathi So you believe the opposite of faith is fear, fear of what? Concepts like Satan and Hell? Wouldn't it take a stronger mind to realise that they are just concepts and laugh at them, rather than follow the collective will of your herd? From what i have read, you have given me the reason why you are religious, you are afraid, you believe that without your 'god' you would be full of fear, doubt and worry (at being an individual?)

you have found ... part of it ..., but i think you have misunderstood it... let me explain...

fear of what you ask? most surely not satan or hell, i think it is foolish to fear that. yes i do realize that they are concepts and i do laugh at them. no, the fear im talking about is the everyday fears you face all the time. 'did i lock the house before i left?' 'im worried i didn�t do that well on my test' 'is my girlfriend cheating on me?' 'what if i dont make the team?' 'what if im not able to make my house payment' 'i doubt i will be able to do it' 'im afraid of what could happen if mom finds out' ...etc, etc, etc, ...

these are the kind of fears im talking about REAL life fears, and having faith is to say "who cares, god will take care of it" and to actually believe that is to have a strong mind. And to act that is to have an even stronger mind.

I am not afraid of being �without my god� because god is eternal. However, I do know from personal experience that it is better to be with god then without, and that you attract what you fear, (�the thing I feared has come upon me�). Therefore I think it is silly to be afraid of being without god.

as for the 'individual' part, could you elaborate?

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fear of what you ask? most surely not satan or hell, i think it is foolish to fear that. yes i do realize that they are concepts and i do laugh at them. no, the fear im talking about is the everyday fears you face all the time. 'did i lock the house before i left?' 'im worried i didn�t do that well on my test' 'is my girlfriend cheating on me?' 'what if i dont make the team?' 'what if im not able to make my house payment' 'i doubt i will be able to do it' 'im afraid of what could happen if mom finds out' ...etc, etc, etc, ... these are the kind of fears im talking about REAL life fears, and having faith is to say "who cares, god will take care of it" and to actually believe that is to have a strong mind. And to act that is to have an even stronger mind.

And god locks your door in case you forget to? And god gives you that little extra money when you are short and you need to pay your bills? "here ya go bondor, here's some cash" And god helps you cheat on all of your tests? "i think the answer is 7"

Karl Marx �Religion is the opium of the masses�

your belief in god is a placebo

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I am not afraid of being �without my god� because god is eternal.

lol, thats just silly

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However, I do know from personal experience that it is better to be with god then without, and that you attract what you fear, (�the thing I feared has come upon me�). Therefore I think it is silly to be afraid of being without god.

murphys law confined to athiests? lol.
Being an Atheist is not for the weak of mind

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as for the 'individual' part, could you elaborate?

the opposite of a sheep

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Originally posted by tathi And god locks your door in case you forget to? And god gives you that little extra money when you are short and you need to pay your bills? "here ya go bondor, here's some cash" And god helps you cheat on all of your tests? "i think the answer is 7"

yeah .... for example, yesterday i was supposed to do some stuff for an essay but i didn�t have the time so instead i prayed about it and once i got to class it turns out that she didn�t even collect it, or check to see if i had done it. stuff like that happens all the time for me, as a mater of FACT in the past 23 days 38 similar "coincidences" have happened.(yes I have kept track)

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Karl Marx �Religion is the opium of the masses�

this opium is SOOOOOOOOO good!

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your belief in god is a placebo

yeah but it also works on the physical too!

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lol, thats just silly

do you have anything to back that up?

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murphys law confined to athiests? lol. Being an Atheist is not for the weak of mind

not confined, applied. and i always thought that Murphy�s law was "what ever can go wrong will go wrong," which to me is quite different then attracting the thing you fear.

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the opposite of a sheep

i meant what do you mean in the context of the quote

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...you would be full of fear, doubt and worry (at being an individual?)

in my own case im the only one in my dorm building who blatantly loves trance, i think that is pretty individualistic. which leads me to believe that, i don�t think i fully understand what you mean by 'individual'

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