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quote:

Originally posted by failsafe why even marry to have kids then? Why not just have the government hand out tax breaks to those with children?

Yes, that's really not such a bad idea. Abolish marriage (in the state sense - religious ones can still be performed), and simply give the benefits to those who already have children.

Separation of church and state, really, it's perfect. In Judaism, married couples actually have two separate marriages - the legal marriage, and the Jewish marriage. The latter is simply a legally binding contract, without any government benefits.

I don't make the policies, though.

You typed 9 lines of nothing, and then patted yourself on the back for being a moron. You give me humour if nothing else Orbax.

digi: well it's nice to see that we at least have _some_ common ground. Orbax is a lost cause though I'm afraid. It's like trying to tell a 5yr old boy that girls don't have "cooties". You can argue until you're blue in the face and they'll never understand. I feel that's the direction that this is going in so I'll end my contributions to it now.

quote:

Originally posted by failsafe You typed 9 lines of nothing, and then patted yourself on the back for being a moron. You give me humour if nothing else Orbax.

Clever

Digi- I think we made a breakthrough! it only took 3 pages to get the idea into his skull, lol!

quote:

Originally posted by failsafe digi: well it's nice to see that we at least have _some_ common ground. Orbax is a lost cause though I'm afraid. It's like trying to tell a 5yr old boy that girls don't have "cooties". You can argue until you're blue in the face and they'll never understand. I feel that's the direction that this is going in so I'll end my contributions to it now.

at least we hate eachother. The real question is who is right. Cuz I think youre a moron, and you think I am one. Do do Do do.

edit. What contributions? Youve merely piggybacked on what ive been saying.

quote:

Originally posted by Cyrus King The point is that you are segregating a group of people based on their sexual orientation, and criticising the way they live but have yet given a legitamte explanation as to why you feel this way... That is why we think you are an ignorant idiot.

You-mean you. I have the right to think the way I think, and I have a reason to think the way I think.

You have your thoughts,I have mine. I respect your thoughts, but going around calling people ignorant idiots is more than unfair, this is a debate. Not an argument.

quote:

Originally posted by failsafe Nellie: You claim not to be a kid yet you say very childish things like "I've talked to my parents". HAHAH man that cracked me up. If you think that homosexuals are "people too", you're correct. Why deny a fellow man or woman the right to marry a member of the same sex if they're your equal? Don't give me this "marriage is sacred" crap either. Hell almost 50% of marriages end in divorce, so it's not like all these hetrosexual people are holding it sacred. If I were to put an honest guess down, I'd say you were 14-15yrs old. You have a talk with your parents about my post, and you can respond with what they think. Tell you mom I said "Hi" *wink*

Where else do you think people learn? From their parents. My parents are important to me,just as yours should be to you.

The reason homosexuals shouldn't be able to be married,yes is because it is scared. It's not crap, Marriage is VERY important. But,homosexuality isn't natural. I know what you're going to say,but that's how it is.

lol I'm not 14 or 15. It's funny though,how you and others have to personally attack a person when you are losing a debate? hmm..that's not fair now you know. I don't have to converse with my parents about your post,or any others infact. I don't either.

I don't think you should be kidding around about communication with parents. Afterall,No matter how old you are,They still are your parents.

Furthermore,what does age have to do with any of this? You're what, 19,20 maybe? Age really doesn't say much about a person.

quote:

Originally posted by DaveSaenz I'm not going to attack you like the others, but perhaps it would be best if you'd get your news from some place other than Pat Robertson and The 700 Club. Just a thought.

Thank you, I appreciate it.
But, I don't normally get my news from the 700 Club. I'm fine with where I get my news. Thanks anyway.

quote:

Originally posted by failsafe Orbax for thousands of years some muslims have treated their women like second rate citizens. That must be okay because that's how it's been done before? Hell women were very recently allowed to vote if you're looking at a timeline like that. So perhaps it's that women have been allowed to vote that's causing all socities problems? Did you know that Hitler blamed the Jews for the economic problems Germany was having before WW2? I see no difference in you blaming homosexuals for "socities decay". And no I don't hate homosexuals and just act like I tolerate them because it's the "in thing to do". Have Nellies parents been having talks with you too?

You need to show some respect to my parents. Both protected your butt, They both served in the USAF. That's not the only reason you should respect them. So I would greatly appreciate it if you would stop acting immature about it. Ok? I don't go picking on your parents, I don't expect you to do the same to mine.

I believe your parents were too busy bombing Canadian soldiers in afghanistan to "save my butt". It must have been nice for them to take a break from bombing afghani/serbian/iraqi/sudanese/somali/etc women and children and actually bomb some men with guns. Too bad they were on the same team. All the F-16s in the world won't buy restraint, and proper use of force.

Look at the american friendly fire during the first gulf war. Talk about war mongering. Rather then positively identify a target as friend/foe, just fire some HE rounds into and have a look later to see who you killed.

"god damn, I didn't know the Iraqi's had M1 tanks too!, good thing we have a clear shot at their back"

(this should REALLY get you going)

quote:

Originally posted by Orbax Digi- I think we made a breakthrough! it only took 3 pages to get the idea into his skull, lol!

Aye, one can accomplish much in life with a little patience and a lot of yelling.

quote:

Originally posted by WhoaNellie1487 ...this is a debate. Not an argument.

Sorry, had to single that out, LOL... might put that one in my sig.

quote:

Originally posted by WhoaNellie1487 The reason homosexuals shouldn't be able to be married,yes is because it is scared. It's not crap, Marriage is VERY important. But,homosexuality isn't natural. I know what you're going to say,but that's how it is.

I'm going to assume that you mean sacred rather than scared. Sacred in what sense? No doubt you mean in a religious sense, and in that case, that argument simply doesn't hold. We're talking about civil/secular marriages/unions here; in my mind religion has nothing to do with it. If religious institutions wish to refuse to marry gay people, then that's up to them.

Natural has multiple definitions, so I�m going to go with the first two that come up at dictionary.com, which are:
- Present in or produced by nature: a natural pearl.
- Of, relating to, or concerning nature: a natural environment.

There are documented cases of homosexuality in nature, my understanding is that genetics has something to do with whether you'll become gay or not, although I realize that society may also have some bearing on it. Instead of saying 'that's how it is', how about citing some evidence that backs up your claim?


Digi: Yes, I did realize that.

You did put up a very interesting argument, and yes, it has made me think. I also recognize that you've stepped back and argued it from a logical perspective without letting emotions etc get in the way.

Aside from the implication that someone could have an Easter egg as a life partner , there are a few things in your analogy that I take issue with.
Firstly, homosexuality doesn't harm anyone. As far as I understand incest has serious medical implications, inbreeding generally results in all sorts of abnormalities, diseases, and defects. Homosexuality does not (Yes, one could argue that it can 'result in aids', but that's preventable, whereas I don't believe the complications that arise from inbreeding are). Admittedly that entire argument is based on the assumption that couples from the same family are going to have sex, but I think that's a perfectly reasonable assumption to make, people rarely remain celibate.
I also think that the whole 'What next, bestiality?' argument has a bit of a floor, homosexuality is a relationship with another human being, another intelligent, consenting human being. Bestiality could be reasonably compared to rape, in my view.

I realize you're probably going to cut that down in shreds, but hey, we'll see.

quote:

Originally posted by failsafe I believe your parents were too busy bombing Canadian soldiers in afghanistan to "save my butt". It must have been nice for them to take a break from bombing afghani/serbian/iraqi/sudanese/somali/etc women and children and actually bomb some men with guns. Too bad they were on the same team. All the F-16s in the world won't buy restraint, and proper use of force. Look at the american friendly fire during the first gulf war. Talk about war mongering. Rather then positively identify a target as friend/foe, just fire some HE rounds into and have a look later to see who you killed. "god damn, I didn't know the Iraqi's had M1 tanks too!, good thing we have a clear shot at their back" (this should REALLY get you going)

You really are one big pinhead,aren't you? They weren't bombing Canadian soldiers in Afgahnistan. My parents were doing their job,Protecting the US.

The US military is here to protect the USA. You obviously know very little about our military. You need to show way more respect towards our military. They fight for you,and me and everyone here everyday.

You're way to selfish,ignorant,and dimwitted to be atleast one bit understanding about someone else and the way they feel. This is obvious. It's my turn to call names now. If you DON'T like the US military,then get out of the US,or stay out of the US. Ok? Because I'm sure they don't want to hear your bull anyway. I know I don't.

It's really sickning how disresepectful you and many others are towards the military. It shouldn't be allowed.

quote:

Originally posted by DigiNut Aye, one can accomplish much in life with a little patience and a lot of yelling. Sorry, had to single that out, LOL... might put that one in my sig.

An argument is personal,name calling,personally attacking someone....etc etc

A debate is about the subject,and the subject only.

quote:

Originally posted by arctic I'm going to assume that you mean sacred rather than scared. Sacred in what sense? No doubt you mean in a religious sense, and in that case, that argument simply doesn't hold. We're talking about civil/secular marriages/unions here; in my mind religion has nothing to do with it. If religious institutions wish to refuse to marry gay people, then that's up to them. Natural has multiple definitions, so I�m going to go with the first two that come up at dictionary.com, which are: - Present in or produced by nature: a natural pearl. - Of, relating to, or concerning nature: a natural environment. There are documented cases of homosexuality in nature, my understanding is that genetics has something to do with whether you'll become gay or not, although I realize that society may also have some bearing on it. Instead of saying 'that's how it is', how about citing some evidence that backs up your claim?

Yes,Sorry. I did mean Sacred. (I've been in bed all day sick,You'll have to excuse me.:/)

Marriage is meant to be between a man and a woman. A life together, Forever. It's important we keep it this way.

Well,Let's see..If homosexuality was/is natural.Then why can't a female,and a female reproduce? Why can't a male and a male reproduce?..... Only female,and male can create a child. That's only the tip of the iceberg. I'll have to reply back later,I'm just way to tired tonight..

Nelly, you really need to learn to use copy and paste instead of posting in the same thread 3 times in a row. It's going to irritate people, even those on your side of the debate.

I will cut up arctic's argument in good time... need to take a bit of a debating break.

I don't live in the USA and I never will. The US is not Canadas protector, contrary to the views of some, nor has it ever been.

quote:

Originally posted by WhoaNellie1487 Yes,Sorry. I did mean Sacred. (I've been in bed all day sick,You'll have to excuse me.:/) Marriage is meant to be between a man and a woman. A life together, Forever. It's important we keep it this way. Well,Let's see..If homosexuality was/is natural.Then why can't a female,and a female reproduce? Why can't a male and a male reproduce?..... Only female,and male can create a child. That's only the tip of the iceberg. I'll have to reply back later,I'm just way to tired tonight..

I don't have the exact statistic with me, but from memory around 50% of marriages end up in divorce. The 'forever' part isn't working, and to be honest, I can't see it ever working. I don't see why it's so important to preserve the 'institution' of marriage, it's just a human concept, and therefore there's a distinct possibility that it's fundamentally flawed. I think it's time that we took another look at (secular) marriage; I don't think that excluding gays is the right thing to do.

I don't think it matters whether they are able to reproduce, gays have been around for a long time, and it isn't exactly a brand new phenomenon. Homosexuality does seem to have something to do with genetics (Feel free to post a credible study that rebukes that if you think I�m wrong). Just because they can't produce doesn�t necessarily make homosexuality 'wrong'.
To answer your question about why males can't reproduce with each other. Simple, because they both have pen0rs.


By the way Diginut, I�m looking forward to it.

quote:

Originally posted by failsafe The US is not Canadas protector, contrary to the views of some, nor has it ever been.

BAHAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHAHAHHAHAHHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA BAHAHAHAHAHHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
HAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
HAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
HAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
HAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
HAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
HAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
HAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
HAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAAHAHAH

quote:

Originally posted by failsafe The US is not Canadas protector, contrary to the views of some, nor has it ever been.

uuhhh I think history will debate you on that comment

quote:

Originally posted by arctic Firstly, homosexuality doesn't harm anyone. As far as I understand incest has serious medical implications, inbreeding generally results in all sorts of abnormalities, diseases, and defects. Homosexuality does not (Yes, one could argue that it can 'result in aids', but that's preventable, whereas I don't believe the complications that arise from inbreeding are). Admittedly that entire argument is based on the assumption that couples from the same family are going to have sex, but I think that's a perfectly reasonable assumption to make, people rarely remain celibate. I also think that the whole 'What next, bestiality?' argument has a bit of a floor, homosexuality is a relationship with another human being, another intelligent, consenting human being. Bestiality could be reasonably compared to rape, in my view. I realize you're probably going to cut that down in shreds, but hey, we'll see.

See, this is all very subjective when you start talking about "harm". Physical, emotional, spiritual, or societal. Depends on what aspect you want to look at it from. Also from what perspective. As in, does it cause harm from the gay persons POV? Probably not, what about from the state POV? Well, its kind of a PR disaster, and a real pain in the ass. How about from a television producer or a movie director? Now they have to put gays in movies or they are being "discriminatory".

I think it (bundled along with every other politically correct agenda item) is destroying freedom of speech. THATS harmful. People screaming UNFAIR! represent gays!

they tried to make LEX LUTHOR gay in a new Superman movie. It needs to stop. They are trying to pervert classic images (like that russian chechnya thing where the gamers put their game in the hands instead of fallen comrades) to get their message out.

And yes, I hate it being done by gays, straights, liberals, conservatives, men, and women. Its disgusting. But they are 1 group, and I dont care if everyone else is doing it too, they are causing harm to the consititutional rights of Americans with this headlong plunge into "include us in everything you do".

I call it annoying little brother syndrome.

quote:

Originally posted by PHALPAX uuhhh I think history will debate you on that comment

that went it to my sig. Best comment EVER lol.

orbax: do enlighten us all; what does America protect Canada from? Isn't it america that's crying for our soliders to come help them? There hasn't been an instance in history where Canada has begged the states for help. There has been countless instances where america has begged canada for help.

korea
vietnam
cold war (with radar stations and missiles on canadian land)
first golf war
yugoslavia
somilia
second golf war

When has canada asked any help of the americans?

As a side note: You truly define the stereotypical american ignorance and arrogance that has made you one of the worlds most detested peoples. You are a very poor ambassador for your country.

quote:

Originally posted by failsafe orbax: do enlighten us all; what does America protect Canada from? Isn't it america that's crying for our soliders to come help them? There hasn't been an instance in history where Canada has begged the states for help. There has been countless instances where america has begged canada for help. korea vietnam cold war (with radar stations and missiles on canadian land) first golf war yugoslavia somilia second golf war When has canada asked any help of the americans? As a side note: You truly define the stereotypical american ignorance and arrogance that has made you one of the worlds most detested peoples. You are a very poor ambassador for your country.

Ill take your side not with pride. I don't want your respect. You sicken me. The fact that you hate me makes me so happy, you cannot imagine this feeling of Euphoria I get as I look upon those sweet savory words.

Considering Canada would be the next province of the Russian Empire without the ol' US of A, I would say that is 1 thing we protect you from. You have no military, anyone on earth except for the poorest of nations could crush your insignificant numbers instantly.

Good joke though, I DID laugh.

and If I am the quintessential American, I would say that makes me a PERFECT ambassador.

The next russian "provice". Hah. You did a great job saving Vietnam from the russian supported North. If America thought Canada was at a threat and needed to be protected then why put all the tanks and bases in Europe? Why not have a sinlge one in Canada? Your knowledge of history is truly lacking.

I noticed you failed you come up with even the slightest argument to Americas pleading for Canadian help in the past.

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