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-- At least 186 killed in Madrid bombings.
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I don't know though why you would think the Islamo-facist are content in containing themselves or why their philosophy has no expansionist tendencies, but hey whatever gets it up for you

Cos to not contain themselves and go for world domination like a James Bond baddy is unrealistic and unattainable - you know that, I know that, and more importantly, they know that. They have an aim, like every single terrorist organisation in history. And thats it. The IRA did not want to take over the UK. The Americans did not want to take over the UK. The Jews did not want to take over the UK. They all want/wanted their own land which they believe/believed was rightfully theirs. Al-Qaida is no different.

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By the way Mr. Smiley spare me the lecture on what I seem to think, this is one American who tries to speak from a global perspective because that is how I feel about humanity and justice in our world

When somebody says the world and everybody in it needs to take a vocal stance against terrorism, that suggests to me that that person believes the world is not taking a vocal stance against terrorism. That is simply not true.

Well, if it makes you feel better, FOX got their report from Reuters. This is breaking news everywhere.

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Originally posted by imokruok Well, if it makes you feel better, FOX got their report from Reuters. This is breaking news everywhere.

yeah this time, but im affraid this is not the first time for you, remember i warned you!

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Originally posted by George Smiley Cos to not contain themselves and go for world domination like a James Bond baddy is unrealistic and unattainable - you know that, I know that, and more importantly, they know that. They have an aim, like every single terrorist organisation in history. And thats it. The IRA did not want to take over the UK. The Americans did not want to take over the UK. The Jews did not want to take over the UK. They all want/wanted their own land which they believe/believed was rightfully theirs. Al-Qaida is no different.

Then to you, why are they spreading, and when/where will it stop?

I realize and understand they are incapable of taking over the world, and they probably don't want to muslimify the Japanese, but they are still extending their curtain around the middle east, deep into Asia, Europe, and Africa.

Hell, the USA should just back out and let the fun begin. I think they won't stop till they get to a Disney Land.

I can appreciate that you as an Israeli may believe Islamic fundamentalism is hell bent on expanding its borders as far as they can, after all, your country is on their target list.

Al-Qaida will fight anywhere on Earth, but only to secure land in a particular place on Earth.

And fudamentalism is not confined to Islam is it? Maybe when you ask me why fundamentalist Islam is on the increase, perhaps we should also ask the same question regarding fundamentalist Christianity in America or take a look at the fundamentalist beliefs of the Jewish settlers? Are they any different to fundamentalist Muslims?

I think the land al-Qaida is aiming for is gonna be any country which is predominantly Muslim (after all, al-Qaida membership is not confined to Middle Easterners is it, and members from countries such as Indonesia will want their country included as well)

I have just found this excellent article that is directly relevent to some of the arguments and viewpoints put forward by some people on this thread who are baying for blood in the wake of the Madrid bombings. It also discussed the 'diplomatic' route as some people called it earlier on in the thread.

The Guardian

really Georgey, give it a rest.

the whole argument is really silly. I can't believe you dragged me into it. Even if Al Qaeda is expanding a little or a lot, it does not change any policy opinion towards them.

Or are you trying to imply with your denial that Al Qaeda is negotiable?

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Or are you trying to imply with your denial that Al Qaeda is negotiable?

What on Earth are you talking about? Denial about what exactly?

And I have no idea whether al-Qaida is negotiable or not, as far as I am aware, nobody has ever tried to negotiate with them to find out. My guess however, is that they would not be negotiable, but then, thats not the point is it? The only way I can be seen for al-Qaida to be defeated is to diminish their support, and continuing to attack or threaten Muslims (which many on here have called for) is gonna have exactly the opposite effect...

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Originally posted by George Smiley continuing to attack or threaten Muslims (which many on here have called for) is gonna have exactly the opposite effect...

That's your point of view of course.

My point is this: We haven't attacked or threatned Muslims before 9-11 yet they still attacked the USA and killed 3000 of its citizens.

So since your approach, "not threatening" Muslims has been tried for the past 50+ years and has no results to show for it, I am thinking it might be about time to change that reason of thinking.

The West has not threatened the Muslim world with the use of force since WWII and look what good it has done the west.

Maybe we should start threatening. I just like you, can't promise this will work. But what I can tell you is that not threatening them has clearly demonstrated to us through history to not be effective. Threatening muslims, we don't know, we haven't tried it really. So far Libya is the only example of its obvious success, but time is still too short to tell.

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My point is this: We haven't attacked or threatned Muslims before 9-11 yet they still attacked the USA and killed 3000 of its citizens.

Your are confusing al-Qaida's motivations with the means to carry their objectives out.

When you quoted me, I was talking about the means in which al-Qaida can carry out objectives.

Al-Qaida will be more powerful and more effective the more members it has fighting for its cause, and the main way it does this is by convincing Muslims that the West is a threat. Al-Qaida needs the West to retaliate and people like you play right into their hands.

My arguments over 'threats' have nothing to do with al-Qaida's motivations. They concern al-Qaida's effectivness.

Makes no difference whether they were threatened before 11/9 (altho they would argue that they were under threat from US support for Israel, the 10 year bombing of Iraq, US military in Saudi Arabia etc etc), if they (Muslims) are threatened now, al-Qaida's membership will inevitabally increase, and so too the threat of terrorism...

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The West has not threatened the Muslim world with the use of force since WWII and look what good it has done the west.

Ah so the West should threaten every nation no matter what? Ya know, just incase?



Anyway, just to clear up the original point...

The more members al-Qaida gets, the more powerful it will become (making it easier to carry out attacks and will make it impossible, due to the nature of al-Qaida, to fight, let alone erradicate)

The more the West retaliates, the more al-Qaida's membership will grow...notice a problem with that?

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Originally posted by George Smiley The more the West retaliates, the more al-Qaida's membership will grow...notice a problem with that?

And the more the West backs down, the more Al-Quaeda will step up their efforts as they'd be viewed as being more effective. So what exactly are you advocating? Are you just saying that no matter what happens, that Al-Quaeda is destined to take over the world by use of scare tactics and overcoming people's will to resist them?

If anything, this is the reason that Al-Quaeda must be destroyed at its roots. There doesn't seem to be any other alternative, for as you've pointed out, you're damned if you do and damned if you don't. The only solution is to eliminate the group from existence, which is obviously more than an overnight operation. As much as you hate the Dubya policy of "'smokin' 'em out of their caves and huntin' 'em down, bringin' 'em to justice one by one", I have yet to see another alternative that really deals with the problem as opposed to sweeping it under the rug for someone else to worry about.

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So what exactly are you advocating? Are you just saying that no matter what happens, that Al-Quaeda is destined to take over the world

Do you know what al-Qaida's aims actually are?

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As much as you hate the Dubya policy of "'smokin' 'em out of their caves and huntin' 'em down, bringin' 'em to justice one by one"

Shame they dont all live in caves in crappy countries isnt it or that might actually work! They live here, in my country, your country and every other country they plan to attack. I would fully support increased intelligence operations, but how exactly is massive use of force going to be in these situations?

And if you are going to pick on some crappy country...which one?

Afghanistan I can agree, in fact I supported it as I believed it was necessary in order to disrupt bin Ladens plans.

Iraq? No link with al-Qaida whatsoever (see bin Laden's ideology and you will realise Saddam is as much an enemy to him as the US)

Iran? Memeber of the mighty axis of evil!!! Nah, you think bin Laden is gonna get support from Iran?!

Saudi Arabia? Yes! But wait a minute, is this the same Saudi Arabia that is not only bin Laden's number one supporter, but also America's number one Arab ally? Summat strange there dont ya think???

So, if we are gonna get revenge and invade a soveriegn state (how else can we propose using military power to eliminate al-Qaida?)...

Which one?

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Originally posted by Yoepus Places like Checneya, Niger, and Kosovo have swifted dramatically to be muslim dominated in the last 20 years. The chief reason for this is the islam-facist attacks on non-muslim to scare them away (see violence works) or force them to convert. You can look at the Christian populations of these regions for the past 30 years and see their sudden and dramatic decline. I chiefly attribute this to the increasing ferocity and determinism of the islamo-facists to expand their borders to places they weren't as traditionally islamo-facist as they have become. Even Afghanistan is a good example of this, despite being a predominatly muslim country, it was not radically such till the invasion of the Islamo-facist. After their invasion all non-mulsim minorities almost completely disappeared. I don't know though why you would think the Islamo-facist are content in containing themselves or why their philosophy has no expansionist tendencies, but hey whatever gets it up for you

Heh, as far as Kosovo goes, the only reason why it became predominantly muslim is because of the population growth differences. While average serbian families had about 2 children, the average albanian ones had about 10. This changed the ratio from 200000:200000 in 1950's to about 2000000:200000 now. Only after the muslim population grew to vastly outnumber the serbs did they start to feel scared and some of them left.

May I just say that this is a good example of what is likely to happen to Israel soon unless you guys either get rid of palestinians somehow or start screwing each others senselessly.

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Originally posted by George Smiley Anyway, just to clear up the original point... The more members al-Qaida gets, the more powerful it will become (making it easier to carry out attacks and will make it impossible, due to the nature of al-Qaida, to fight, let alone erradicate) The more the West retaliates, the more al-Qaida's membership will grow...notice a problem with that?

And to clear up my point:

I agree with you, the more members al Qaeda gets the more powerful it will beocome.

I just differ in you how it will get members.

If I was a fanatical Arab, and I saw Al Qaeda strikes blow fear into the hearts of the enemy to such an extend they would be scared to retaliate, I would say by Allah, this organization has got something to it. It's got the right policy, and it will grow, I better join up and help the cause.

Now if I was a fanatical Arab and I saw Al Qaeda members blown to smitherens around me, perhaps with my mom and pop blow away with them too, I'd be terrified and say wow they sure woke up a sleeping giant.
I'd most likely be mad as hell, but I would realize if I join that organizaiton only doom and death will come to me and all those around me. Plus, why would join a place where the life expectancy is a month.. I might just go try that alternative liberal democracy thing.. this fanatacisim an't all its cranked up to be.

And thats where my view point and your view point differ.

Its like that slapping analogy.
(1)If someone comes up to you and slaps you, you slap them back, right? I would.

(2)Now if someone comes up to you with a gun and slaps you, you wouldn't say shit right?
I wouldn't.

(3)Now if you see some stranger come up to another guy and slap him (without a gun) and the guy does nothing and then you see another stranger approach the guy and slap him and he still does nothing, and you see three other strabgers than go and slap the guy, still without being slapped back, you'd probably be like.. dude I gotta try this, and you go up the guy and slap him.
I sure would.

(4)Now if you see some stranger come up to another guy and slap him, and the guy shots and kills the stranger, would you then go up to the guy and slap him?
I sure wouldn't. I'd be like, dud do not mess with that guy he's psycho.

I mean from my perspective this is very basic human psychology.
As I understand it, you are implying approach #3. As Spain has just been slapped real hard, yet they are not going to slap back.

What your hoping is the pity will kick in for Al Qaeda and they will feel sorry for the guy that is always getting slapped around but not standing up for himself.

I think, just like in this analogy if he doesn't slap back, people are going to wonder, why didn't he slap back, and continue to prod and slap him till they are content they can do with im what they wish.

and I as you have guessed I advocate approach #4.

See we both essentially agree on the same premise: The more members al Qaeda gets the more powerful it will become.

We just differe in how we think that will happen. You think more people will join Al Q if Spain guns them down. I think more people will join Al Q if they do nothing.

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Originally posted by Yoepus Now if I was a fanatical Arab and I saw Al Qaeda members blown to smitherens around me, perhaps with my mom and pop blow away with them too, I'd be terrified and say wow they sure woke up a sleeping giant. I'd most likely be mad as hell, but I would realize if I join that organizaiton only doom and death will come to me and all those around me.

so this mean, if the palestinians attack Israel enough, you would refuse to go with the israeli military or in any way support the israeli occupation?

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Originally posted by St_Andrew so this mean, if the palestinians attack Israel enough, you would refuse to go with the israeli military or in any way support the israeli occupation?

If they had overwhelming force and presented an alternative to genoicde then yes.

I'd rather live then die, how about you?

Why does every thread here end with a palestinian/isreali arguement?

you guys are out of control

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Originally posted by igottaknow Why does every thread here end with a palestinian/isreali arguement? you guys are out of control

That's usually the signal to run for cover.

the odd part is this time a non-palestinian/israeli changed the thread

Yoepus, if you were a fanatical Arab (What the hell is a fanatical Arab anyway?! You mean Muslim right? Not Arab?!) you would already support al-Qaida's aims, and would possibly already be helping them.

Islamic fundamentalists will always remain Islamic fundamentalists, and as you as an Israeli should know more than anyone else in the world, the prospect of death doesn't exactly deter a suicide bomber does it? In fact, dying for the cause is a great honour in fanatical Islam, and what with the 70 odd virgins you're gonna get, hell, even I'm tempted!!! (That's sarcasm by the way incase Israelis have the same sense of sarcasm as our American friends!)

What we should be concerned with is not fanatical Muslims (we are already too late for them), but ordinary Muslims, just like you or me (ordianry people that is, not Muslims! Altho there's a good chance you are religious?), who may be swayed by al-Qaida (or our attacks on them) into becoming fanatical.

I agree totally we should come down hard on al-Qaida members but only if we can, and not at the expense of converting ordinary Muslims to fanaticism. We can't attack another Muslim country to come down on al-Qaida (the only way we could come down hard on them). The only country is Saudi Arabia and America bums them. I'm not too sure about the politics of Syria, Lebanon and other Middle East countries, but as far as I know, only Saudi is Wahhibist. Iran is more of an enemy to al-Qaida than America or Israel is so attacking Iran would make even less sense than attacking Iraq (and Saddam was no friend of bin Laden either)

What you said in your post I can sympathise with. But you seem to think that 1) all Muslims are the same and that they think the same, and 2) that they are all easily influenced by fundamental Islam.

Religious fanatics will always be with us. America and Israel are no exceptions with their evangelical Christians or neo-Zionist settlers (who in my opinion are no different from al-Qaida whatsoever).

Keeping al-Qaida's membership down, in my opinion, does not mean detering the fanatics, as I dont think they can be detered (luckily, fanaitcs or extermists by there very nature and definition only make a small minority). Keeping al-Qaida's membership down to me will be done by not giving ordinary Muslims reasons to convert or be persuaded towards fanaticism.

Bombing them and their families will not achieve that! (See British moral during the Blitz)

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Originally posted by Yoepus the odd part is this time a non-palestinian/israeli changed the thread

Actually, you posted the first post on Israel/Palestine in this thread.
Somehow it seems that the Zionists keep bringing up the topic...

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Originally posted by Yoepus If they had overwhelming force and presented an alternative to genoicde then yes.

you are just a covard not all people thinks like you though, especially not the arabs...

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I'd rather live then die, how about you?

yes that is my choice too, cool we agree on something!

To all those shouting for massive vengeful attacks against al-Qaida (or merely Muslims which it will inevitably be)...

Has this approach worked for Israel?

No amount of terrorising the Palestinians has convinced them to give up the cause has it? By your logic, the Palestinians would have given up a long time ago, and Israel would be allowed to live in peace...

...yet the situation just gets worse and worse and worse, and more and more people lose their lives every week...

...is this what we want for our countries?

George:

I'll quote what I wrote on page 4 or 5 since it's somewhat related to your question.

quote:

Originally posted by St_Andrew terror will exists as long as the problems exists. no matter how hard you try to eliminate it. quote: occrider: This may apply to situations such as Palestine, Chechnya, etc., but we shouldn't attempt to generalize all sources for terrorism and apply a one-size fits all solution to everything. You're setting yourself up for failure. Like I've been saying, the so called "problem" that is the source of Al-Qaeda's existence is the growth of western culture in the middle east and its departure from complete religious fundementalism. Their overall cause is NOT supported by the majority, since their appeal is towards extremism (which is by definition not of the majority) Therefore, there really is no solution to their "problem". The only true way to resolve the situation is through the intelligent use of force and force only. Now how you go about applying that force (through greater involvement of other countries, eliminating rogue nations supporting these groups, etc.) is the real question.

So basically the same logic and reasoning that may be applied to Israel/Palestine does not and should not be applied to combatting Al-Qaeda. Not all acts of terrorism are done to correct some grave injustice ... Al-Qaeda's terrorism is done in order to acheive extremist political goals.

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Originally posted by George Smiley To all those shouting for massive vengeful attacks against al-Qaida (or merely Muslims which it will inevitably be)... Has this approach worked for Israel?

Yes it has.

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No amount of terrorising the Palestinians has convinced them to give up the cause has it? By your logic, the Palestinians would have given up a long time ago, and Israel would be allowed to live in peace...

What do you mean no amount, we wouldn't know if 'any amount' won't convience the Palestinians. I for one still believe, that if Israel were to slaughter the entire inhabitants of a neighborhood a suicide bomber originate from, it would probably convience them to stop terror attacks.

Of course Israel will never use such force and so we will never know for certain, but you can not make an authoritarian statement like "No amount of terrorising the Palestinians [will succeed]" which is basically unprovable.

Its your opinion on that matter, and its my opinion that it is wrong.

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...yet the situation just gets worse and worse and worse, and more and more people lose their lives every week...

I don't think the situation is getting worse and worse, less and less people lose thier lives every week. Recall the first year of the second Palestinian uprising, Israeli death tolls were much higher than the second year of the uprising. I attribute this in part to the success of Israeli security operations against the Palestinians. What do you attribute this to?

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...is this what we want for our countries?

Please recall also that in the absence of Israeli security operations against the Palestinians terrorism still existed. During the heigh of Oslo, even under the leadership of Rabin, hundreds of Israeli were being massacred in the streets.

I defintely can't say for certain that using force against terrorism will bring an end to terrorism, I believe this right now, but the end might be turnout different than the path. What I can say for certain is that in the case of Israel, and Islamo-facisit terrorist groups, appeasing them has proven itself not to work.

So when faced with an two option, one proven not to work, and the other unproven but it might work, I'll go with the unproven but might just work one... I know though that according to your 'believes' you would chose the method proven not to work.

And returning back to topic, Spain has been dealing with the same brand of islamo-facist terrorism. It is not dealing with European style terrorist like the ETA or IRA, islamo-facist are a different mold. And to date, no one has successfully appeased an islamo-facist group to obliteration.

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