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-- British commanders condemn US tactics
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Originally posted by xKaoSx That's pretty easy to do in a low risk zone. What would happen if they tried that where the heat is?

Unfortunately thanks to the americans those brittish tactics would be futile in falluja, but let me just say that insurgencies werent just happening in falluja but in cities all over the country which includes basra, but obviously basra has had a much smaller scaled revolt which i believe is due to the proffesionalism and the humanity that is diplayed by the brittish towards the shia people. It wouldve been interesting to see how the britts wouldve faired in najaf if they had control of the city from the start instead of the US.........I can bet there would've been a lot more diplomacy going on with the shia there.

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Originally posted by xKaoSx Are you fucking kidding me? How about the civies spread the word- Dont make sudden movements and just do what they ask for now till things cool down. Sorry to say but it's a either him or me mentality out there and if the Iraqi's dont understand that then they need to learn a little self preservation.

Thats exactly why the Americans are having so many problems. You can't do that to civlians. You just can't. The soliders are professionals the civlians are civlians.

REMEMBER THE TROOPS ARE THERE TO PROTECT THE IRAQI CIVLIANS. THATS THE WHOLE RESON THEY ARE THERE. AND IT'S THIER COUNTRY WHAT YOUR SAYING IS EVERYTHING A FRIENDLY OCCUPYING FORCE SHOULD AVOID.

How are you going to protect them if you shoot them all.

And I'm glad your having problems Spankster just wish you had problems finding "dirt" on the Americans too.

quote:

Originally posted by FuzzyGreen This is a good example of how the British people are acting like libral Nancyboys and fail to see that we are fighting a war for our survival. The Iraqi's are sub-human and when you are in a war it's good to promote this thought among your army.

Calling Iraqis subhumans is a good way to get the Iraqis to like you, eh?

And you wonder why Yanks are doing poorly in Iraq.

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Originally posted by Dervish Thats exactly why the Americans are having so many problems. You can't do that to civlians. You just can't. The soliders are professionals the civlians are civlians. REMEMBER THE TROOPS ARE THERE TO PROTECT THE IRAQI CIVLIANS. THATS THE WHOLE RESON THEY ARE THERE. AND IT'S THIER COUNTRY WHAT YOUR SAYING IS EVERYTHING A FRIENDLY OCCUPYING FORCE SHOULD AVOID. How are you going to protect them if you shoot them all. And I'm glad your having problems Spankster just wish you had problems finding "dirt" on the Americans too.

The troops are there to protect the civilians from themselves.
Seriously- what would you have the troops do? How many troops would have to die before you would change your mind?

Who's life do you think is worth more? A US Soldier or Iraqi civilian?

quote:

Originally posted by xKaoSx The troops are there to protect the civilians from themselves. Seriously- what would you have the troops do? How many troops would have to die before you would change your mind? Who's life do you think is worth more? A US Soldier or Iraqi civilian?

I would have the troops err on the side a caution with regard to the use of force. How many civilians have to die before you change your mind. I belive both lives are worth the same BUT the solider is a professional and knows what he or she signed up for. The civilian is a civilian who the soliders job it is to protect even die for that civilian. And in Iraq thouse are Iraqi civilians.

quote:

Originally posted by NYCTrancefan This thread is summed up in this commentary, take the British and put them in Fallujah and we will see how successful the tactics are in the end. If the British are indeed better at dealing with security why aren't they in these towns instead of American troops, or moreover working with American troops in such violent cities.

Because there are only limited number of Brits, and they stretched rather thinly in terms of resources at the moment.

Don't bite more than you can chew.

quote:

Originally posted by xKaoSx The troops are there to protect the civilians from themselves. Seriously- what would you have the troops do? How many troops would have to die before you would change your mind? Who's life do you think is worth more? A US Soldier or Iraqi civilian?

What the hell is the point of us being there in the first place if we shouldn't protect the civilians?!

As soon as everybody realised we were fed a load of bullshit about WMDs, the government changed its mind and then preceded to tell us we were there to liberate Iraqis from oppression!

Now how the hell is viewing all Iraqis as a potential threat helping acheive that objective?!

quote:

Originally posted by George Smiley What the hell is the point of us being there in the first place if we shouldn't protect the civilians?! As soon as everybody realised we were fed a load of bullshit about WMDs, the government changed its mind and then preceded to tell us we were there to liberate Iraqis from oppression! Now how the hell is viewing all Iraqis as a potential threat helping acheive that objective?!

All of our points are made- It's just a bit clusterfuck chaos mess over there. One thing feeds the other- it's a vicious cycle which I dont see any end. Both of you are talking about perfect world situations and the way it should be. Well- it's just not like that. Each side has no respect for the other really.

quote:

Originally posted by xKaoSx All of our points are made- It's just a bit clusterfuck chaos mess over there. One thing feeds the other- it's a vicious cycle which I dont see any end. Both of you are talking about perfect world situations and the way it should be. Well- it's just not like that. Each side has no respect for the other really.

No we are talking real world. Real lives real people not a game. You have to show restraint. Your not shooting targets your shooting real people.

quote:

Originally posted by EvilTree Calling Iraqis subhumans is a good way to get the Iraqis to like you, eh? And you wonder why Yanks are doing poorly in Iraq.

As was stated in other parts of this thread I misspoke and meant the Iraqi terrorists, not the Iraqi people as a whole.

quote:

All of our points are made- It's just a bit clusterfuck chaos mess over there. One thing feeds the other- it's a vicious cycle which I dont see any end. Both of you are talking about perfect world situations and the way it should be. Well- it's just not like that. Each side has no respect for the other really.

But it doesn't have to be like that!

If the US just took one step back and actually thought for just a second what their actions were likely to lead to they might think, hey, maybe us pursuing this course of action is having the OPPOSITE EFFECT as to what we want!!!!!!!

quote:

Originally posted by George Smiley But it doesn't have to be like that! If the US just took one step back and actually thought for just a second what their actions were likely to lead to they might think, hey, maybe us pursuing this course of action is having the OPPOSITE EFFECT as to what we want!!!!!!!

So what is your suggestion for a resolution to this Iraqi mess then?

Before you answer a question like that you would have to ask yourself what you are actually trying to achieve...I dont think anybody from us to those incharge in Iraq have asked that question yet!

For me, we should be trying to achieve some kind of stability in Iraq and that means we should be doing everything to put an end to the current violence.

For that to happen, we have to stop forcing people to be violent (cos that is what we are doing in places like Fullajah and it will spread like wild fire round the country)

When you treat people like shit, they are gonna turn on you

After the fall of Saddam, we were under the impression that the people there supported us...we need to create that condition again!

We have to stop coming down hard on the resistance cos they are civilians that have been convinced the coalition is out to get them (and if we look at attitudes on here, you can easily see they have a point when faced with views like 'every Iraqi should be considered a target until proved otherwise for the safety of our troops')

Stop attacking and start rebuilding - get the Iraqis back on our side!

(Maybe it really is time for UN leadership? And that does not mean US out, it means the UN should command the US forces...)

quote:

Originally posted by George Smiley Stop attacking and start rebuilding - get the Iraqis back on our side! (Maybe it really is time for UN leadership? And that does not mean US out, it means the UN should command the US forces...)

But, we were rebuilding and our civillian contractors were burned alive and dragged through the streets and hung from a bridge. How can we rebuild if we are constantly attacked?

quote:

Originally posted by Dervish No we are talking real world. Real lives real people not a game. You have to show restraint. Your not shooting targets your shooting real people.

You think US soldiers are sitting over there killing civilians on purpose?

quote:

Originally posted by George Smiley Before you answer a question like that you would have to ask yourself what you are actually trying to achieve...I dont think anybody from us to those incharge in Iraq have asked that question yet! For me, we should be trying to achieve some kind of stability in Iraq and that means we should be doing everything to put an end to the current violence. For that to happen, we have to stop forcing people to be violent (cos that is what we are doing in places like Fullajah and it will spread like wild fire round the country) When you treat people like shit, they are gonna turn on you After the fall of Saddam, we were under the impression that the people there supported us...we need to create that condition again! We have to stop coming down hard on the resistance cos they are civilians that have been convinced the coalition is out to get them (and if we look at attitudes on here, you can easily see they have a point when faced with views like 'every Iraqi should be considered a target until proved otherwise for the safety of our troops') Stop attacking and start rebuilding - get the Iraqis back on our side! (Maybe it really is time for UN leadership? And that does not mean US out, it means the UN should command the US forces...)

Believe me- I am all for the UN stepping in and taking over and having all the troops out.

What happens when/if they start killing UN people?
then what would you say?

quote:

Originally posted by xKaoSx What happens when/if they start killing UN people? then what would you say?

actually the iraqi insurgents have already made sure to get the UN out of the way by bombing their main HQ a couple months after baghdad was capture... i'm glad the US at least isnt running away with their tails between their legs

quote:

Originally posted by George Smiley If the US just took one step back and actually thought for just a second what their actions were likely to lead to they might think, hey, maybe us pursuing this course of action is having the OPPOSITE EFFECT as to what we want!!!!!!!

you make it seem like the iraqis are attacking the americans because the US is out to kill them. of course this is wrong, the insurgents want their leaders in control of iraq. how else would you explain the fact that they've been getting hostages from russia, japan, china and korea... god dang i'm sure the russians have thought long and hard about "what their actions were likely to lead". i'm sure restoring iraqs infrustracture infuriated the insurgents - i'm sure the insurgents were saying "how dare they come in here and try to give us a better life"

you're dealing with irrational people fighting by irrational means to achieve and irrational end

quote:

Originally posted by George Smiley Bloody hell! What do you think this is?! A fucking academic paper we're all taking part in?! Do you want us to reference all our posts using the Harvard Referencing system or summat?! Fallacy fallacy fucking fallacy!!!!!!!! This is an internet chat site! We express on it opinions! We are but mere mortals who aren't experts on anything! Everything everyone says on here is a fucking fallacy you muppet if it is our opinions! Why the hell should we only have an opinion that can be backed up by the same opinion as an "expert"?! Would it really hurt you so much to come up with your own thoughts every now and again instead of loitering round threads waiting for the perfect opertunity to proundly proclaim that stupid fucking website you post up in every thread you take part in and announce: "This, people, is a fallacy!" Get a life mate!

Emotional little chap ain't he.

You just don't like being wrong.

I post plenty of opinion on here, I quite realize that it's impossible for people to back up every single thing they write. The only problem, of course, is when they try to pass that opinion off as fact, or try to pass of fallacious logic as sound (i.e. by building an entire argument based on an unsubstantiated opinion - like the Creationists)...

Wow... i cant beelive i havent posted in reply to Fuzzy's yankee ass racist and brainwashed remarks yet!

Do you actually have an education Fuzzy??? HAHAAHAHh

sad little american

quote:

Originally posted by Cyrus King Do you actually have an education Fuzzy??? HAHAAHAHh

quote:

Originally posted by FuzzyGreen I am not a product of right-wing propaganda because very little of it exists over here any more (except on AM radio). But I am the product of an expensive University education, love for the history channel, and a hard work ethic.

thought i'd help you out cyrus and save fuzzy some work

no thanks needed

quote:

Originally posted by Dervish Well one source I'll impicitly trust one which I'd take with a pinch of salt(who was in iraq before). He said the American way of doing things was fundentally differnt to the British and he said they have a tendancy to overreact to anything they reguard as a threat. Further he said they also have the tendancy to reguard basicly any iraqi as a threat. They don't view them as anything but threats. And they don't view the war/occupation as real in a way, they see it as a game well atleast act that way.

Question, how many British troops are KIA every day? How many attacks are made on British troops every day? How many British contractors have been killed and mutilated (the US just doubled its # and is at 8 now). Sitting in Basra or Kurdish areas is an entirely different experience than what the US troops are facing in the Sunni triangle.

I agree that US troops probably view this conflict differently than US troops, precisely because it is a different conflict depending on location in Iraq. I'll bet British troops in Iceland viewed WWII somewhat differently than say, British troops in North Africa or Asia.

quote:

Originally posted by Spankster Link to article The article above relates to some inside information on what is going on in falluja. a Couple of paragraphs here: "He hadn't slept much, along with all of the doctors at the small clinic. It started with just three doctors, but since the Americans bombed one of the hospitals, and were currently sniping people as they attempted to enter/exit the main hospital,

If you believe that, I'd like to sell you your next automobile.

well- at least the iraqi's are not discriminating-

add french and italians to the list of kidnapped.

quote:

Originally posted by xKaoSx well- at least the iraqi's are not discriminating- add french and italians to the list of kidnapped.

wow, i guess the french didnt think hard enough about the consequences of their actions. the french surely were too heavy handed in doing whatever it was they were doing (what in the hell are they doing there anyways?)

quote:

Originally posted by Izzy wow, i guess the french didnt think hard enough about the consequences of their actions. the french surely were too heavy handed in doing whatever it was they were doing (what in the hell are they doing there anyways?)

French Photographer
Italian Security hired by US

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