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- Canada - Toronto & Southern Ont.
-- Tory Aurora MP Belinda Stronach crosses the floor to the Grits
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quote:

Originally posted by amb_ I agree. More people will flock to the NDP or even the Green Party, especially in Ontario, rather than embrace those who have forged a capricious deal with the BQ...

What deal? All they have done is agreed that the government is corrupt. How can they be allies simply by both opposing the government which is what opposition parties are supposed to do by name? Im sick of this alliance BS. The two parties have nothing in common except they both oppose the government and until layton sold out he was right there with them. So i guess that made layton a seperatist sympathizer too?

quote:

Originally posted by Jayx1 sure they would. These changes came about because society wanted them. In fact the government was pretty much forced to legalize abortion back in the 80s by the will of the people. id rather have 366 (or whatever number it is now) people deciding these issues rather than a non elected judge or 1 person in the house of commons (the prime minister) which is how it works now.

It wasn't legalized, the courts just ruled that the antiabortion law was unconstitutional. Like it or not the MP's are not cabable of fully understanding the constitution. All of our Moral laws (same sex marriage, abortion, capital punishment) will be decided by the courts. The government should make fiscal policy.

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Originally posted by musicsnob_NOT It wasn't legalized, the courts just ruled that the antiabortion law was unconstitutional. Like it or not the MP's are not cabable of fully understanding the constitution. All of our Moral laws (same sex marriage, abortion, capital punishment) will be decided by the courts. The government should make fiscal policy.

So why dont we just abolish government and let unlelected judges decide everything?

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Originally posted by Jayx1 It wouldnt take a drastic change. All the prime minister has to do is allow free votes and its done. What you advocate is more like a dictatorship than a democracy. If you are saying you cant trust your local MP then why did you vote for them? BTW where do you think they pick prime ministers from? Your local MPs of course. Same with cabinet ministers.

You are arguing both sides. At the beginning you said people gritted their teeth and voted for Belinda becasue they wanted to vote for the Conservative, but now you want to let the local MP's vote how they feel. If the people of Canada could vote for their MP or MPP and vote for the PM or Premier then I would agree to this... but they can't. Give me the party leader, let me know where you stand on the issues, and let me vote on those issues - and follow them - see Mike Harris - its not a dictatorship, its how the system we have has to work.

quote:

Originally posted by amb_ those who have forged a capricious deal with the BQ...

there is no deal, and you know it

quote:

Originally posted by musicsnob_NOT You are arguing both sides. At the beginning you said people gritted their teeth and voted for Belinda becasue they wanted to vote for the Conservative, but now you want to let the local MP's vote how they feel. If the people of Canada could vote for their MP or MPP and vote for the PM or Premier then I would agree to this... but they can't. Give me the party leader, let me know where you stand on the issues, and let me vote on those issues - and follow them - see Mike Harris - its not a dictatorship, its how the system we have has to work.

They did..but if MPs were allowed a free vote then people would vote this way far less often and pay more attention to the candidate. Thats the point im making.

quote:

Originally posted by Jayx1 So why dont we just abolish government and let unlelected judges decide everything?

I said the government should make fiscal policy. The will of the people will bring about the change on moral issues, which the judges will determine if they are constitutional or not. You can argue how our judges should be appointed, but they are the ones who will make our laws.

quote:

Originally posted by musicsnob_NOT I said the government should make fiscal policy. The will of the people will bring about the change on moral issues, which the judges will determine if they are constitutional or not. You can argue how our judges should be appointed, but they are the ones who will make our laws.

And i dont agree with that... judges should be interpreting the laws... not MAKING them. Our constitution is flawed in so many ways but thats a whole other jerry springer show.

quote:

Originally posted by Jayx1 They did..but if MPs were allowed a free vote then people would vote this way far less often and pay more attention to the candidate. Thats the point im making.

Do you honestly think the people of Cananda would do the research that would be required to make an informed decision about a local MP. I guess you have more faith in people than I do. We are where we are in this country because I think it has been proven the people of Canada aren't capable of making an informed decision - if they were they would have gotten rid of the Liberals after their first term and would not has destroyed the PC's.

I will say this again, I am a conservative and would love to be able to vote for the Conservatives again, however with Harper in control and the power of the party being held by the right wing zealots I can not vote for them. In my circle of friends (and I would dare say a lot of Ontario voters) this is the problem we have.

If I ever actually meet you I will buy you a beer and we can talk about the good old days of Mike Harris and BM.

quote:

Originally posted by Jayx1 And i dont agree with that... judges should be interpreting the laws... not MAKING them. Our constitution is flawed in so many ways but thats a whole other jerry springer show.

Bad choice of words by me- they will be interpreting the laws, but that has ended up being defacto making the laws. If somehow a law is passed banning same sex marriages, it will get shot down by the courts. I just don't see the point in opening up these problems.

quote:

Originally posted by musicsnob_NOT Do you honestly think the people of Cananda would do the research that would be required to make an informed decision about a local MP. I guess you have more faith in people than I do. We are where we are in this country because I think it has been proven the people of Canada aren't capable of making an informed decision - if they were they would have gotten rid of the Liberals after their first term and would not has destroyed the PC's. I will say this again, I am a conservative and would love to be able to vote for the Conservatives again, however with Harper in control and the power of the party being held by the right wing zealots I can not vote for them. In my circle of friends (and I would dare say a lot of Ontario voters) this is the problem we have. If I ever actually meet you I will buy you a beer and we can talk about the good old days of Mike Harris and BM.

It almost sounds like you advocate a one party dictatorship since "the people are too dumb to decide for themselves anyways"...

almost.

I agree though that the media has done a good job at brainwashing people.

quote:

Originally posted by Jayx1 It almost sounds like you advocate a one party dictatorship since "the people are too dumb to decide for themselves anyways"... almost. I agree though that the media has done a good job at brainwashing people.

I kinda do, at least that's what my old Political Science Prof use to tell me in University. :P

quote:

Originally posted by musicsnob_NOT I kinda do, at least that's what my old Political Science Prof use to tell me in University. :P

well your totalitarian thoughts would be dangerous if implemented.

"Belinda jumps ship to Liberals, Harper trying to force an election, deals being made - above and below the tables....."

getting back to government business at hand is VITALLY IMPORTANT.....this is turning in to an 9/11-IRAQ style media circus - this can't and shouldn't be the only thing THAT SHOULD BE PLAYING OUT IN THE NEWS DAILY - since 9/11 - we have this whipped up/frenzied media circus parading across our front pages and screens daily - making mountains outta molehills to secure airtime......I for one am sick of hearing about of who did this and who did that........the blame game must end and our political representatives need to dig in their heels and GET TO WORK......this kind of CRIPPLING OF PARLIMENT effect is forcing our dollar lower.....making potential/future investment more difficult to acquire.....pissing the average voter off and making them tune-out to important issues........WE NEED SOME POSITIVE news of affirmative action of WORK GETTING DONE IN QUEEN'S PARK/OTTAWA.

This media circus is like Entertainment tonight.....politics is not supposed to be THIS entertaining........I CAN NO LONGER STAND to watch most news stations as everything is either SKEWED or SENSATIONALIZED to the point of riduculousness.......

I remember being at a party of a very dear friend of mine now deceased(MARCH 24, 2003 he passed away from liver cancer) Liberal MPP Hamilton East Dominic Agostino's in Feb of 2003.....Minister of Foreign Affairs Bill Graham was there...the topic of the room was the war on terror in IRAQ.......my question to him was on the potential threats of NORTH KOREA and IRAN - what about them???? (I had my own views/formulated my opinions on the IRAQ occupation)...his eyes lit UP....."finally someone who wants to discuss other (perhaps more) dangerous sleeping Giants.......there is much more to this war on terrorism than IRAQ and I am glad you have brought that up.......". I subsequently got an ear full of a lot interesting facts and viewpoints that I would have never received from any source of MEDIA!!! My point being - there are many sides to a story and their are many stories to be told.....why focus on one NEWSBITE and rape the shit out of it.......NO WONDER people have no faith in Parliment/News Channels/Papers.......it's turning into the INQUIRER - sensationalism at its best............it is at times like this that I miss my friend DOMINIQUE AGOSTINO........a very environmentally vocal member of the caucus/political process in Canada well respected for his HONESTY and DEDICATION to the Liberal party and his constituents and a job that he was elected for for 10 YEARS!!!!!!........a very left-wing Liberal - he always had things to say/pushed buttons/posed difficult questions and supported many platforms that became the backbone of Liberal achievements over the last decade and a half.

I am sure this lastest bit of info (Belinda converting to the GRITS) would have been quite the conversation piece with him and I......I only wish he was here to discuss these things with me now.....

SOMEONE who actually knows WTF is really going on within our parlimentary system and despite the misgivings of this "current" sponsorship scandal always helped me to understand the political party that I had always been involved with......

since being a YOUTH MEMBER of the LIBERAL PARTY in 1987 through to my meeting of Dominic Agostino in 1995 and beyond - the Liberal Party's basic platform and ideals will always be what I stand for - change and reform - and the many HUMAN RIGHTS that the LIBERALS have brought forth so thet I MAY be recognized and respected within the community that I live in - I forever am grateful. You cannot deny the huge inroads the LIBERAL party has made to found/secure the rights of MINORITY groups across the spectrum over the last 13 years. For this alone I know where I am to cast my vote in the next election - despite this "accounting" mess they have found themselves in now.

Peel back the layers of all political parties/members.....even the average Canadian and you will find skeletons - no one is perfect and we are all living in a "cult of silence and protection" of our own posturing - we are all breaking laws of some sort.....we have just developed selective consciousnesses about how to live with ourselves while doing it........

Im sure he was a morally good person and MP. Im sorry for your loss. There are a lot of good members in all parties. And its very true that the media distorts everything. This is why people have the views they do about each party. People have very distorted views about all parties because of the media including the liberals.

Sadly the good and worthy talents of the Liberal party have been overshadowed by the massive corruption and scandal of many in the party. This is why the party needs to be refounded in order to clean ship and allow the good members to perform. An election would be the first of many steps to allow this to happen.

Quote of the day:

Ontario PC MPP Bob Runciman: "She sort of defined herself as something of a dipstick, an attractive one, but still a dipstick, with what she's done here today. She is, at the end of the day, going to paint herself as something of a joke."






she really is a bimbo... just listen to her speak.. totally ignorant of the issues

she is where she is today because of daddy's money and influence

quote:

Originally posted by ShadoWolf she is where she is today because of daddy's money and influence

And being Peter MacKay's sweetheart.

quote:

Originally posted by amb_ And being Peter MacKay's sweetheart.

no, it's the other way around... think about it

the guys at work were jumpin for joy at this news today. the CAW loves the conservative party like a kick in the nuts. every time i walked out on the plant floor today people couldnt shut up about it. frankly i think it will damage both sides of the house. but im glad it slants the tables away from teh conservatives a bit more. the liberals havent been pissin flowers lately but i sitll trust em a hell of a lot more than the conservatives.

quote:

Originally posted by Tordan That is true. The proposed budget with the NDP demands is bad for our economy. I expect there will be hard times to come. It's too bad though, our economy has been doing pretty good these past years.

what is going to be so bad about it? Investments in infrastructure and education?
oohhh scary!

quote:

Originally posted by swilly Investments in infrastructure and education?

meaningless words... education is a PROVINCIAL responsibility... most infrastructure is also provincial

Martin is just trying to buy his way out of an election... with our own money!!

the misuse of the federal spending power and the subsequent fiscal imbalance is one of the main causes of support for Quebec separatism

quote:

Originally posted by swilly what is going to be so bad about it? Investments in infrastructure and education? oohhh scary!

the scary part is the massive debt and inevitable taxation that will go with it. This will surely slow down the economy.

quote:

Originally posted by Jayx1 the scary part is the massive debt and inevitable taxation that will go with it. This will surely slow down the economy.

this is true - we rode out the last 15 years without a recession ------ but we are suffering for it now socially because of too MANY cuts - from both Camps - - our social services structure is dire need of repair especially the EDUCATION system that is a farce now with their threats of strikes every year/contract renewal........It is time to spend money - if we are smart about it in 2010-2012 our economy should be on a huge upswing with the opening up of the Pacific Rim countries and our careful divestment from the US to China and Partners.....

quote:

Originally posted by naesean3 this is true - we rode out the last 15 years without a recession ------ but we are suffering for it now socially because of too MANY cuts - from both Camps - - our social services structure is dire need of repair especially the EDUCATION system that is a farce now with their threats of strikes every year/contract renewal........It is time to spend money - if we are smart about it in 2010-2012 our economy should be on a huge upswing with the opening up of the Pacific Rim countries and our careful divestment from the US to China and Partners.....

Use a period not a series of them....................its hard to read amigo.

swilly

quote:

Originally posted by naesean3 this is true - we rode out the last 15 years without a recession ------ but we are suffering for it now socially because of too MANY cuts - from both Camps - - our social services structure is dire need of repair especially the EDUCATION system that is a farce now with their threats of strikes every year/contract renewal........It is time to spend money - if we are smart about it in 2010-2012 our economy should be on a huge upswing with the opening up of the Pacific Rim countries and our careful divestment from the US to China and Partners.....

But more money isnt nec going to acheive that. Our social system is suffering because the way it's designed it can no longer handle the demands. I dont think it ever could which is why we have such massive debt. We need to restructure so that services can be delivered more efficiently and yes that means private/public partnerships. Its how most countries do it even in socialist europe! We are just so hell bent on being non american that we wont even consider it.

Throwing good money after bad is not the answer.

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