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-- The Perfect Kick - Here's How
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I was clinging on to that link for a few days..over a week even...wanted to try it badly...defently helpfull! thanks bro!

quote:

Originally posted by Basil Rush Dude - I see your point here. But I've done a lot of thinking and messing around with kick drums in my time and some of them do have a pitch and sometimes that pitch is important - percussion just has harmonics that aren't as easily deducable by the brain as closely related. On the other hand I agree it's pretty unlikely you can tell what key a tracks gonna be in by the kick - although you can usually have a good guess at C or F or something with a lot of white notes, at least if I've had anything to do with it.

Anyone ever makes his own beats?? A 909 kick is nothing more than a simple sine wave going thru a pitch envelope so it has no recognizable root key.

quote:

Originally posted by DeZmA Anyone ever makes his own beats?? A 909 kick is nothing more than a simple sine wave going thru a pitch envelope so it has no recognizable root key.

True for a 909 kick admittedly. Especially as the attack portion is a single transient so there's bugger all to get your head around there too.

All I said (was trying to say) was that pitch is important and that some percussion, including some kick drums, have pitch of some kind. And that that fundamental and harmonics in those sounds are somehow related to the track and sing nicely with it.

This kick thread is getting boring !

Then post something completely outrageous that will take everyone by surprise.

I'd just like to correct the folk that say percussive elements, or even kicks, don't have a pitch. Ever heard about drum tuning? Ask any halfassed drummer about it and he'll start rambling about tightening membranes while listening to a reference tone etc.

Kicks are discrete frequencies and not a broad spectrum. The effect of mallet hitting a membrane causes some fluctuation and inharmonic effects but majority of sound is both chromatic and harmonic. The only issue here is that due to the membrane effectively dampening the initial vibration of the hit, the fundamental of this vibration is swept in much the same way as is the case with synthetic 909 kicks.

However, for some reason our hearing subconceously does some kind of statistical frequency analysis and indeed atteches a pitch (a note) to that sound, despite it having no set and stable pitch. That's why for most consonant and most pleasant results, drums need to be tuned (can be to a fifth or third as well) to the key of the track with real drumming.

Kick more or less, but your snares, percussions such as congas or bongas, toms etc should be tuned. As an unperfect tuning (to a third or fifth) is acceptable it's not as demanding as it seems, you just adjust the pitch of percussive hits until they fit better for no other apparent reason.

can someone fix the tutorial then it will be able to work with Reason?

out of all kicks i like the "robert nickson kick" he uses in spiral etc the most. very energetic

for as far as i know the guy uses mostly reason 3

now me know a lot of people uses the same program MY question is.. i never heard a kick comming from reason that sounded even CLOSE to the one he uses

HOW DOES HE DO IT?

any1 of u guys have an idea about that?

me myself mostly use (for kickdrums that is) the drumkits from my korg triton le 61

DigiNut - Sep 9 '05 "What many people in this thread are referring to as "trance" is just bastardized trance - saccharine, syrupy, mind-numbing uber-hyper-ultra-mega-super-saw schlock trance, slathered in commercial mayonnaise and ketchup"

That's funny!

An early post asked about using stereo track for the kick/bass. There is no need to do this as the low frequencies in a track are omni-directional. A freq of 50Hz has a wavelength of about 5meters. To split these freq over a stereo field would be pointless, because for one it would require the sound system to work harder for the same result i.e. it would require more power. The base, kick and vocal are the main staple of a mix and should be in the centre of the stereo field (in most instances) and this is another reason to use a mono track.

As for tuning, if there was no need to do it, why have a tuning knob on the 909? It's there because you have the ability to alter the pitch of the kick. it may be a basic sine wave, but it is tunable.

Now for a question.
I have read a little here about cutting below 20Hz. Human hearing range is from 20Hz-20kHz (although most people can only hear up to about 16kHz-17kHz (run a tone at different freq and try it) so why cut below 20Hz?
The only reason I can understand for this would be to conserve power used to drive the subs, but having said this most club systems would have their own cross-over's to cut below a certain freq.
Please explain...

quote:

Originally posted by skot_e Now for a question. I have read a little here about cutting below 20Hz. Human hearing range is from 20Hz-20kHz (although most people can only hear up to about 16kHz-17kHz (run a tone at different freq and try it) so why cut below 20Hz? The only reason I can understand for this would be to conserve power used to drive the subs, but having said this most club systems would have their own cross-over's to cut below a certain freq. Please explain...

I think this is to gain extra headroom, so your track can be louder.

Not sure though

I've heard frequencies below 20Hz can destroy some speakers.

not sure on this, definately high frequency can blow a speaker if it is over driven (just ask one of my tweaters), but not sure on the lows. the reason for this is that the hi's move so quicky in and out, if you put too much signal into them they are forced to work really hard and this can burn the coils out (something like that).
That is why you use a cross over in the signal flow before the amp (generally out of the xover into the amp). If using a 3-way system, the x-over allow you to set what levels go to the sub/mid/hi. Eg you might cut the low at 40Hz and allow signal up to 250/500 Hz and set the figure for the mid to cut at same250 or 500 up towhatever.
this is to protect the speaker being over driven (ie pushed past its range).
it's just the below 20Hz I don't get.

quote:

Originally posted by dj_palm u cant destroy a bass speaker with hi freqs man thats just stupid.

No shit

i was not saying that would happen, when I said 'not sure on the lows' i was refering to the previous posts about below 20Hz, and more so how it is cut from the mix... go back a page or two.

As for the tweater, my house mate was mixing and had far too much gain running through the mixer, and I told him not to do that coz it would blow the speaker. (staight out the mixer into the amp i.e. no filters - it is the DJ monitor). Needless to say I came home form work to be told he blew the speaker...

"My opinion is that no tune should have information below 30 Hz caus u cant hear it anyways and it will only destroy the speakers on clubs(maybe)."

this is what I was asking about back a bit. Earlier in the thread there was some discussion about cutting below 20Hz, now what I want to know is the reason for the cut. 1 - you can't hear it anyway so cutting has no audible benefit, and 2 - most PA's have a built in cut anyway, so the question i have is what is the reason for cutting i.e. what is the benefit??

Cheers

quote:

Originally posted by dj_palm * Low freqs will often overrun midrange and make it "change" if playd loud. I dont mean like drown the midrange, but the low freq will be a carrier and make the sound out of the midrange change a bit.

i guess this sort of makes sense - If the frequencies are in phase at some point, they will 'sum' together and it will be louder... is this what you mean? ie there would be more harmonics...

quote:

Low freqs destroys bass speakers easely.

Is this more likely on small bass speakers ie not 18" subs for example.

quote:

It uses "energy/dynamics" in the mix, uhm how to explain that, most uses copmuters for mixdowns, or atleast digital mixers which have a level peak right? if u got alot of info in low freqs u need to turn down the level so it wont distort. if u cut out the low freqs u can turn up the volum in the mix abit and get better dynamic level out of this.

That makes sense. You definately clip the signal easier with bass freq.

quote:

continuasly sub freqs makes you sleepy:, in a military tank(even when its driving in the woods and its 20 minus degrees)

Can't say i have ever fallen asleep in a tank, or been in -20 degrees.

Tomorrow 32, Sun 33, Mon 36, Tues-Fri 35 Deg (Celsius)
Summer is here!!! Crazy.

I see what your saying, and I can understand how that would occur - especially on a 2 way system with real low freq's. it would cause the air to pump so to speak

I posted elsewhere about pressing vinyl and one of the responses included a link to a vinyl cutter. This is a relative quote from that page:


Very deep base is prohibited because frequencies lower than 20 Hz would activate the resonances of your playback arm!

Just found this now, so that would be another point. At what freq is it good to cut bass? You wouldn't want to totaly eliminate the feel so my guess about 50Hz???

So in a war situation, those tanks would be rather useless? But then again the 'stress' situation would change things a little.

Now I know the reason why tanks make that much innocent victims

30 huh? OK
I think the resonance thing they misused the word, they are talking about groove depth. If your interested:here

I just want to say thank you to Dave West for this Tutorial and Digi Nut for makin this a sticky, 6 months ago when i first looked at this tut i was so lost, but now that i learned a lot, i comeback and finally make use of it, now my kicks never sounded better.

Shit! was it really six months ago? I do remember that I was a tiny, little bit drunk when I wrote the piece. Subsequently some individuals of questionable mental condition sought to give it to me right the arse - without lube, for getting it so wrong.

I'm therefore very happy to learn that someone has used the tutorial as it was intended to be - a starting point, and moved on to a greater level of whatever...

Me

quote:

Originally posted by Dave West Shit! was it really six months ago? I do remember that I was a tiny, little bit drunk when I wrote the piece. Subsequently some individuals of questionable mental condition sought to give it to me right the arse - without lube, for getting it so wrong. I'm therefore very happy to learn that someone has used the tutorial as it was intended to be - a starting point, and moved on to a greater level of whatever... Me

Yes it has, and i'll say thank you again, here is the outcome of your tutorial and some of Mr. Mysterys.

John Paullino-Black Universe Sample

this is so needed
thx

rubbish - there is no such thing as a perfect kick

I read through this post and there is quite a bit of info to digest. What a great post though!!

Out of curiosity, can anyone using Battery 2 recommend a good kick sample within it's library? Also, what settings are you using, if any, on the compressor and filter? I just want a good starting point is all.

Admittedly, I don't understand everything in the posts here. This is quite involved. I would just like to know a good starting sample to use within Battery 2 that I might be able to use to follow this guide a little better. For some reason, I just can't get the kicks to sound right. I want to read this in detail and try to understand through trial and error.

To bad it was filled with page after page or pointless arguments, the thread could of probably been 5 pages.

Sorry to ask this here, but a new thread would be pushing it and I think it's too specific to search. A lot of compression discussion here.
"What does compression exactly do to the waveform?" Not "How does it alter the perceived sound"; just "bunch of sines with different amplitude & frequency, compress it, what gives?".
What attack and release time & stuff mean, that will be searchable, so you can drop that
Thx for eventual replies.

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