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-- Suddenly I realized the stupidity of long buildups
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quote:

Originally posted by Phil raa the best build-ups are ones where you don't realise it's a build-up, until it's almost built up. then u realise you should be screaming ur face off.

Brisky & Dave - prototype 1.

\o/

quote:

Originally posted by SYSTEM-J And come on. Trying? Trying what? Trance is what it is. You make a super-anthemic mega trance track and it's exactly that. It isn't trying anything. It's not as if Out of the Blue or Suburban Train failed at what they tried to be.

I've explained, many times, exactly why they are, in essays and rants in this very forum. I'd show you, but the search function is down.

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Originally posted by SYSTEM-J Genres move on. Trance would have died in 1996 had someone not done something with the genre. A creative drought. Just like it's been in for the last couple of years. Nobody with any sense says "oh yeah, trance kicks ass in 2005!", but that doesn't mean that trance that wasn't your buzzing, boring concoction was never any good.

Genres can evolve and move on without insulting our intelligence.

Trance is a unicycle. Since 98 its been wearing training wheels and a safety harness so all the uncoordinated people who are attracted to pretty, shiny things can ride it.

quote:

Originally posted by Ishkur I've explained, many times, exactly why they are, in essays and rants in this very forum. I'd show you, but the search function is down. Genres can evolve and move on without insulting our intelligence. Trance is a unicycle. Since 98 its been wearing training wheels and a safety harness so all the uncoordinated people who are attracted to pretty, shiny things can ride it.

Heaven forbid something be popular.

I wager you'd hate the trance you love, if it was the popular music now.

quote:

Originally posted by Ishkur I've explained, many times, exactly why they are, in essays and rants in this very forum. I'd show you, but the search function is down. Genres can evolve and move on without insulting our intelligence. Trance is a unicycle. Since 98 its been wearing training wheels and a safety harness so all the uncoordinated people who are attracted to pretty, shiny things can ride it.

And what was it doing from the beggining to 98?

quote:

Originally posted by isoterra lol, it's amusing how barrel-scrapingly unfunny & strung together aiwendil's posts start to look once ishkur joins the discussion

lol whereas yours look that way all the time regardless of who joins a discussion lol


You expect me to be able or try to compete with a professional writer? And I believe "Muzak" is in the "Brit House" section of the guide, where he says it's the most boring music in the world. If I remember correctly.

quote:

Originally posted by Ishkur I've explained, many times, exactly why they are, in essays and rants in this very forum. I'd show you, but the search function is down.

I've read your shlock time and again, and it didn't cut any mustard then either.

quote:

Genres can evolve and move on without insulting our intelligence. Trance is a unicycle. Since 98 its been wearing training wheels and a safety harness so all the uncoordinated people who are attracted to pretty, shiny things can ride it.

Yes. Because fun music can never be good, right? Because the Prodge's "Out of Space" was a demanding intellectual trip. That's why it's one of the most perenially popular dance records ever made, right? And then there's the pretty glaring assumption that the breakdown (which just happens to be an established dance music tool since the beginning of time) means that a track suddenly has no intelligence, development, subtlety or whatever you want.

Who honestly gives a shit if it's got the word "trance" in the ridiculously over-extended sub-genre label? If we're being realistic, and not looking through your skewed perspective of convenientely arguable reality, then only 40% of trance is as melody and drama driven as you suggest. And then this 40% is suddenly shit and pop and whatever else you think will degrade it, because it is driven by a hook! Bollocks, Ish, pure bollocks.

You remind me of Guitarded, or "it's not on real instruments!" or whatever other stupid argument people will level against any EDM style or track. If you honestly judge music on where it came from, or what it calls itself then you're taking the wrong look at it. Because who gives a fuck? If it's a good track, then it's a good track. And there are shit epic trance tracks, and there are fucking outstanding ones. Just like there are for classic trance, or acid trance, or psy or french house or big beat or jungle or whatever. So give this obstinate bias against EIGHT YEARS OF MUSIC a rest, because it's neither big nor very clever.

quote:

Originally posted by Zombie0915 I sure would like to hear a set that had that sorta entrancing affect.

If you want to try and find it on CD, you can look Here, Here, Here, Here, Here, Here, Here, Here, Here, Here, Here, Here, Here, or Here.

Or you could try and find These sets by contacting the guy. He's about to release part four though.

quote:

Originally posted by Zombie0915 imagine that, a PhD researcher backing up the idea that this older style of trance was actually trance inducing. Maybe ppl aren't just talking shit after all.

it's sad that you needed reaffirmation from a Ph.D to 'believe' logical conclusions.

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Originally posted by SYSTEM-J I've read your shlock time and again, and it didn't cut any mustard then either.

Sure it did, otherwise you'd have a worthy reply. You haven't.

You've probably forgotten what those arguments are.

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Originally posted by SYSTEM-J Yes. Because fun music can never be good, right?

Fun music is good all the time. Eurodance anyone?

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Originally posted by SYSTEM-J Bollocks, Ish, pure bollocks.

Prove it. I see you mocking. I don't see you supporting any of your refutations.

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Originally posted by SYSTEM-J And there are shit epic trance tracks, and there are fucking outstanding ones.

like?

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Originally posted by SYSTEM-J So give this obstinate bias against EIGHT YEARS OF MUSIC a rest, because it's neither big nor very clever.

I wasn't aware I was trying to be clever. I've only ever been honest towards the music I love as much as I love my own life.

The least it can do is return the favour.

quote:

Originally posted by Ishkur I wasn't aware I was trying to be clever. I've only ever been honest towards the music I love as much as I love my own life. The least it can do is return the favour.

rate my attempt at it then

Keep in mind, J, that any worthy argument you can possibly mount is swiftly derailed by the inevitable arrival of the Crazy Frog trance remix.

You've come a long way, baby.

*chortle*

Y'know, I'm not sure a lot of this genre whoring is worth arguing over. After all, just like 'house' and 'techno' went on to be officially known as Euro ten years later, so will 'trance'. The kids can defend 'trance' all they like. When they're gone and the stalwarts are left, stuff like As The Rush Comes will be officially forever known as what it really is: Euro.

A lot of the old trance style is still played these days, but it just gets called progressive or techno instead because all the euro is taking the trance name for itself instead (and really, did at times even in the very beginning). It takes a number of years for the dust from the Genre Wars to settle before dedicated record keepers can get things sorted.

Heh... I can still remember the days I thought Chris Sheppard was an awesome 'techno' DJ with his Pirate Radio Sessions.



Oh, yeah. Excessive breakdowns/builds played in excess over the course of a set still suck, and forever will suck.

quote:

Originally posted by Psy-T it's sad that you needed reaffirmation from a Ph.D to 'believe' logical conclusions.

you so have a broken sarcasm detector

quote:

Originally posted by Ishkur Sure it did, otherwise you'd have a worthy reply. You haven't. You've probably forgotten what those arguments are.

Should I take your word for it, or will you go to the trouble of typing out these hallowed points which will defeat all opposition?

quote:

Fun music is good all the time. Eurodance anyone?

Why are you answering rhetoric sincerely?

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Prove it. I see you mocking. I don't see you supporting any of your refutations.

What? Prove it? Prove that hook driven music can have subtlety and intelligence? I could name a billion hook-driven tracks that are just that. Would you really deny such a point until I'd bothered making such a list?

quote:

like?

Here's the part where I name some tracks, then you go "nope, shit" and raise your fists in triumph, right?

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I wasn't aware I was trying to be clever. I've only ever been honest towards the music I love as much as I love my own life. The least it can do is return the favour.

The only reason you ever make a post on TA on this subject is because you love to flex your ego and virtually beat up all those 6 month ravers who think Rank 1's new track is on par with classical music. You do it for the sheer hell of it. You haven't made a single post here because of love towards music. You've done it out of a love of being loud and controversial.

Why is it that System-J always misses the point in every argument? Straw men don't count, man. Red herrings taste good, but the'll get you nowhere here.

Oh my, where did all this come from? Having just read this thread in its entirety, there are a dozen things I want to reply to, but think I'll hold off for the moment and digest before setting to the task.

In terms of the lost art of trance as it was once known, a form of music that was hypnotic and consuming, Ish is pretty much right; his supporting links on research into trancelike states reinforces this. Most people who are in disageement with trance being a different (and, in some ways, lesser) being than it once was do so simply because they haven't experienced traditional trance sets. This isn't so much a product of ignorance as availablity; such material is simply tough to find. It's actually a little comic to see people attempting to compare their experience with today's epic trance versus description of traditional trance; they don't compare. Nearly all of today's trance isn't designed at all like trance was in the first half of the nineties.

The other thing I'll say for now is that while it is tragic that 'real' trance has had its title hijacked by a different direction of music than what the roots of that term denote, that's hardly grounds for deriding today's 'trance' as inferior in some absolute sense.

quote:

Originally posted by Sykonee Y'know, I'm not sure a lot of this genre whoring is worth arguing over. After all, just like 'house' and 'techno' went on to be officially known as Euro ten years later, so will 'trance'. The kids can defend 'trance' all they like. When they're gone and the stalwarts are left, stuff like As The Rush Comes will be officially forever known as what it really is: Euro. A lot of the old trance style is still played these days, but it just gets called progressive or techno instead because all the euro is taking the trance name for itself instead (and really, did at times even in the very beginning). It takes a number of years for the dust from the Genre Wars to settle before dedicated record keepers can get things sorted.

Yeah, so much of what's being argued is simply confusion of semantics. People would save a lot of wasted breath if the terminology reflected the content. Carry-over of the term 'trance' to today's use of that label will of course be in conflict with the sort of stuff that Sven Vath pushed over ten years ago.

I'll have more to say on this later in the day, perhaps.

Doesn't Age of Love - Age of Love have a breakdown? The breakdown actually gets on my nerves in that song - the part before the breakdown is brilliant - very trancy - then the breakdown spoils it

quote:

Originally posted by SYSTEM-J Should I take your word for it, or will you go to the trouble of typing out these hallowed points which will defeat all opposition?

Oh hell no. I'm a lazy sod, remember. Nothing is worth typing out more than once.

quote:

Originally posted by SYSTEM-J Why are you answering rhetoric sincerely?

Because that's all you got to work with.

quote:

Originally posted by SYSTEM-J What? Prove it? Prove that hook driven music can have subtlety and intelligence? I could name a billion hook-driven tracks that are just that. Would you really deny such a point until I'd bothered making such a list?

Yup.

quote:

Originally posted by SYSTEM-J Here's the part where I name some tracks, then you go "nope, shit" and raise your fists in triumph, right?

Forcing you to redefine what a hook-driven track is, and then the subtlety and intelligence inherent within, so that it can confirm to your self-assertion.

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Originally posted by SYSTEM-J The only reason you ever make a post on TA on this subject is because you love to flex your ego

Not true. I have a website for that.

This is just for shits n giggles. The fact that Rank 1's newest track reaches the top of the charts despite anything I can, say or do proves just how ineffectual I really am.

But ohhhhh...you should see the emails from the punters claiming otherwise.

quote:

Originally posted by Ishkur Oh hell no. I'm a lazy sod, remember. Nothing is worth typing out more than once.

Well don't use arguments you can't be bothered to regurgitate. Hey, I have this tungsten cored motherfucker of an argument that beats anything you've said and ever will say. I ain't gonna enlighten you as to what it is though.

quote:

Because that's all you got to work with.

Sigh. Your answer proved my very point, although it's concievable that you either missed it or played dumb to wind me up. Either way it's a .38 through your foot.

quote:

Yup.

Jam & Spoon - Stella
Underworld - Dark & Long (Dark Train)
Paul Van Dyk - Forbidden Fruit (BT & PVD's Fruit of Love Mix)

Here's three to start you on. I deliberately chose three pre-1996 tracks as an example here. Can you see that big lights of the train of argument coming towards you? You wouldn't give these tracks the time of day if they'd been released post 1996. Nevertheless, they're driven by hooks, and they aren't stupid, pop or whatever else.

In fact, it doesn't matter if they're even trance, let alone what year they were released. Any song from any genre. Whether it's Rob Dougan's "Clubbed to Death", Orbital's "The Box" or The Verve's "Bitter Sweet Symphony". Being hook driven does not mean that a track has no merit. And you fucking know this! So how the hell can you argue otherwise? "The trance from way back didn't have hooks... well some did but we'll ignore those" (lit: it's trying to be something it's not).

Oh who cares? What an utterly stupid argument. You know this already, and you know perfectly well I'm right, but it won't stop you generalising all trance as mega-anthems then stamping down with your size 12 hate boots.

quote:

Forcing you to redefine what a hook-driven track is, and then the subtlety and intelligence inherent within, so that it can confirm to your self-assertion.

What? The quote was "there are plenty of outstanding epic trance tracks", something which is pretty much a matter of opinion. As with anything. My point is that the only opinion that is incorrect is the biased opinion, because it is a pre-determined response no matter what track I put under your nose. Ergo you saying "it's shit" doesn't alter anything.

quote:

Not true. I have a website for that. This is just for shits n giggles. The fact that Rank 1's newest track reaches the top of the charts despite anything I can, say or do proves just how ineffectual I really am.

I'd love to know the difference between what you're doing here and what you do on your site.

EDIT: Why does it filter motherfucker but not ******?

EDIT 2: Ah. It does.

quote:

Originally posted by SYSTEM-J EDIT: Why does it filter motherfucker but not ******? EDIT 2: Ah. It does.

Also, would it not be fairly likely that had trance not evolved from what it was then to what it is now, that people would still be moaning about how stale it is and how everything sounds the same?

quote:

Originally posted by kr00t0n Also, would it not be fairly likely that had trance not evolved from what it was then to what it is now, that people would still be moaning about how stale it is and how everything sounds the same?

Of course they would. The moral of the story is that people will complain about utter shit for the sheer hell of it.

quote:

Originally posted by SYSTEM-J Well don't use arguments you can't be bothered to regurgitate. Hey, I have this tungsten cored mother****** of an argument that beats anything you've said and ever will say. I ain't gonna enlighten you as to what it is though.

The answers are already fucking here, I just have to wait til the search works again so I can cutnpaste them.

quote:

Originally posted by SYSTEM-J Sigh. Your answer proved my very point, although it's concievable that you either missed it or played dumb to wind me up. Either way it's a .38 through your foot.

How the fuck did you manage to miss my foot from 2 inches away.

I got big feet, too.

quote:

Originally posted by SYSTEM-J Jam & Spoon - Stella Underworld - Dark & Long (Dark Train) Paul Van Dyk - Forbidden Fruit (BT & PVD's Fruit of Love Mix) Here's three to start you on. I deliberately chose three pre-1996 tracks as an example here. Can you see that big lights of the train of argument coming towards you? You wouldn't give these tracks the time of day if they'd been released post 1996. Nevertheless, they're driven by hooks, and they aren't stupid, pop or whatever else.

Show me, in these three tracks, where the big 1+ minute breakdown is, the crazy-ass snare roll, and the crescending anthem. Also, the female vocal singing about destiny and heaven and angels fucking unicorns and lost love.

quote:

Originally posted by SYSTEM-J Being hook driven does not mean that a track has no merit.

Actually, I don't think I ever recall saying that. You went on a tangent sometime awhile ago, and you've completely forgotten what my argument was.

Do you remember what my definition of "cheese" is?

quote:

Originally posted by SYSTEM-J generalising all trance as mega-anthems

Not all trance, just the trance you listen to. (I don't mean you specifically).

But hey, this sounds like a great time to post a new thread. I want people to tell me what good trance there is today. You should know by now what my definition of "good" trance is. I'm sure the offers will come rolling in! We will test the virility of the TA's by getting them to pony up with the goods! If they aren't up to the task, then...I guess all trance today really is mega-anthems. Or, at least....all the trance the punters on this site ever care about.

quote:

Originally posted by SYSTEM-J I'd love to know the difference between what you're doing here and what you do on your site.

My site has pictures. And barely 10% of it is actually about trance. And it's a lot funnier.

quote:

Originally posted by kr00t0n Also, would it not be fairly likely that had trance not evolved from what it was then to what it is now, that people would still be moaning about how stale it is and how everything sounds the same?

If trance had not evolved from what it was, none of you would be here, and hardly anyone would be scarcely aware of its existence, so its a moot point. It would be doing something outside of your sphere of interest.

quote:

Originally posted by Ishkur Show me, in these three tracks, where the big 1+ minute breakdown is, the crazy-ass snare roll, and the crescending anthem. Also, the female vocal singing about destiny and heaven and angels fucking unicorns and lost love.

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Actually, I don't think I ever recall saying that. You went on a tangent sometime awhile ago, and you've completely forgotten what my argument was. Do you remember what my definition of "cheese" is?

Hold the phone. This is exactly what I mean. You say that all post-1998 trance is like this. Bullshit. In your opening bout of spleen-venting you waxed lyrical about how trance has all become this ludicrous stuff you've just described. Obviously it ain't. My point has been that the only difference in a lot of trance today is that is more melody-based than old-skool trance.

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Not all trance, just the trance you listen to. (I don't mean you specifically).

Yeah. Exactly. I don't want you to like all epic trance. I don't even like much epic trance (as I said earlier, it has it's moments and I don't deny that). What I want is for you to stop fucking tarring 50,000+ people under one brush. It's ever so slightly annoying.

quote:

My site has pictures. And barely 10% of it is actually about trance. And it's a lot funnier.

I know. 70% of it is about shitty non-sports and the USA. And for God's sake- implement an edit button!

quote:

Originally posted by Ishkur Show me, in these three tracks, where the big 1+ minute breakdown is, the crazy-ass snare roll, and the crescending anthem. Also, the female vocal singing about destiny and heaven and angels fucking unicorns and lost love.

He didn't pick the right one.

Messiah - Thunderdome (Spicelab Remix)

Three out of four ain't bad. This, probably the most schmalzy-walzy overblown (insert your adjective here) trance track made before 1995, made by who it was made by, the irony is not lost on me.

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