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-- [Politics] Has John Howard done a good job?
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quote:

Originally posted by Paulie Personal attack? The guy spits on the hand that feeds him

how so?

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Originally posted by Paulie PKC since you are such a massive do gooder. Go sponsor one of these illegals let them live in your house, and you subsidise them... I dont think you would, would you. What difference is it when the government does the same thing. Id rather my tax go towards people that need it, the elderly, the sick etc

im not a massive do-gooder. i just have a lot of sympathy for those that dont have the luxuries that we all take for granted. and your suggestion re subsidy doesnt make any sense. thats like saying if i agreed with our invasion of afghanistan i should join the military, or if you agree with the mandatory detention of illegals you should become a guard

i dont understand how you think the govt is "subsidising" anyone. if by subsidy you mean locking them up and taking general care of them then i think your parallel is a bit off.

I think all of us agree that for everyone to benefit we should all have access to education to the highest level we want and are capable of. This means that funding should be based on need.

I personally have no problem with funding for private schools, but, I have a huge problem with millions of dollars of extra funding for RICH private schools. The way funding is skewed at the moment some of the biggest and richest get funding at the expense not only of government schools but also poorer and religious private schools. It's like the guy who can only afford a holden contributing to the guy who can afford to drive a porsche.

The level of funding from all sources is way higher for the private system than for government schools. You have to count fees because government schools can't charge fees to cover shortcomings Their job is to provide a free education system available to everyone. [They can't refuse anyone]

As a lefty I would like to point out that both the Hecs scheme and funding for private schools were Labor initiatives. All these problems have arisen from Liberal changes. I would like to point out also, that not everyone who wants to go to uni can do so. Under these changes unis can, and in fact have to, take full fee paying students whose enter scores don't have to be as high. Apparently over 7000 victorians missed out on hecs places last year.

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Originally posted by DIDI I would like to point out also, that not everyone who wants to go to uni can do so. Under these changes unis can, and in fact have to, take full fee paying students whose enter scores don't have to be as high. Apparently over 7000 victorians missed out on hecs places last year.

And I would also like to point out that full fee paying students (which include international students studying here) do NOT take the places of any HECS student. They are in addition to these places.

So don't try to pull that bullshit statement as so many others have before.

quote:

Originally posted by Renegade I think you're referring to Net Foreign Debt, of which I'm pretty sure the government is only responsible for a small fraction. EDIT: 3.1% in fact.

fair enough, i wasnt aware of exactly how much the government contributed to that debt, however it's still a large amount, not to mention the implications on the government of such a large australian debt, not to mention the web page u just quoted says that surpluses have gone into reducing debt (ie instead of education etc), so i think my point still stands, going forward things most probably will change, then again they might not.

quote:

Originally posted by quidgydog And I would also like to point out that full fee paying students (which include international students studying here) do NOT take the places of any HECS student. They are in addition to these places. So don't try to pull that bullshit statement as so many others have before.

Ididn't say they did . I said the places weren't available.

quote:

Originally posted by DIDI Ididn't say they did . I said the places weren't available.

Sorry if I misunderstood the intent of your comments. One of my bugbears has always been ignorant people claiming that international full-fee paying students or Australian fee paying students are taking away HECS places, which is crap.

And there are plenty of people who regularly claim this.

And they often start with a line like . . . . .

quote:

Under these changes unis can, and in fact have to, take full fee paying students whose enter scores don't have to be as high. Apparently over 7000 victorians missed out on hecs places last year.

Followed by . . . . .
"So it is very unfair that students who deserve a place miss out becuase their place has been taken by someone able to pay more."

So again, sorry if I misunderstood the intent of your comments, but this is where I saw it going.

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN how so? im not a massive do-gooder. i just have a lot of sympathy for those that dont have the luxuries that we all take for granted. and your suggestion re subsidy doesnt make any sense. thats like saying if i agreed with our invasion of afghanistan i should join the military, or if you agree with the mandatory detention of illegals you should become a guard i dont understand how you think the govt is "subsidising" anyone. if by subsidy you mean locking them up and taking general care of them then i think your parallel is a bit off.

That comment was directed at our canadian mate Nyquist, who just criticises the government constantly. My comment is to him, if he doesnt like it, he should go back to canada.

PKC, give them a pension they all come seeking for...What you think they can find a job immediately? Thats why im saying if your so worried about them, put them under your roof, feed them, pay them till they are ready to get a job which could be 2 years down the track, or in which so many are after... never have to work again. Having no border control is ridiculous in todays world climate.

quote:

Originally posted by Paulie PKC, give them a pension they all come seeking for...What you think they can find a job immediately?

firstly, its not possible for immigrants to receive a pension. howard changed that in his first couple of terms.

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Originally posted by Paulie Thats why im saying if your so worried about them, put them under your roof, feed them, pay them till they are ready to get a job which could be 2 years down the track,

what i do know though is that keeping them incarcerated is a drain on public monies and for sure they aint gonna be getting employed if theyre in jail. and, again, your suggestion doesnt make any sense.

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Originally posted by Paulie or in which so many are after... never have to work again. Having no border control is ridiculous in todays world climate.

um, yeah: they travel thousands of kilometres, spend their life-savings and sometimes take enormous risks getting here; for what? so they wont have to work again? christ paulie, got any more thoroughly unsubstantiated generalisations to share with us?

Im not gonna sit here and argue with you. You have your naive views and I have my views. Just for a change id just like to see someone put their money where their mouth is. It never happens tho. They travel thousands of kilometres, going thru countless of countries, yet all want to come to Australia, why is that?

quote:

Originally posted by Paulie They travel thousands of kilometres, going thru countless of countries, yet all want to come to Australia, why is that?

i don't think you are in a position to ask that

quote:

Originally posted by Philby i don't think you are in a position to ask that

Actually . . . . . . . . . .

If the money we pay in taxes is going to be spent on these people, I think it is totally within out rights to ask that.

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Originally posted by Paulie Im not gonna sit here and argue with you.

of course youre not. youve got nothing but conjecture and narrow-minded hot air to back up your claims.

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Originally posted by Paulie You have your naive views and I have my views.

id rather be naive and educated (and quite possibly incorrect) than running around spewing forth stuff that might sound good but really doesnt have any substance.

quote:

Originally posted by Paulie They travel thousands of kilometres, going thru countless of countries, yet all want to come to Australia, why is that?

you already know the answer to that:

quote:

Originally posted by Paulie australians are way ahead of any other nation when it comes to living standards.

possibly the only claim youve made that has a basis in reality. the wonderful land of Oz came in at #3 in 2005 in terms of living conditions according to the OECD website. who the fvck wouldnt wanna live in australia? oz rocks

quote:

Originally posted by Philby i don't think you are in a position to ask that

Phil my parents, your grandparents, got asked to come into the country. They have worked their butts off for the last 30-40 years to make australia what it is today. Greeks, Italians and the asians sure might have built their own community but they have also taken pride in their australian heritage and are proud to call themselves australian. Therefore our parents and grandparents situation doesnt even compare.

Heck in greece im called australian, and in australia im labelled a greasy wog, you cant win, but i know wheres home, and ill protect it till the cows come home.

PKC:

[cue mass generalisation] The current influx of islamic cultures completely go against what migration is about. They build communities within our community, and continually fuel their hate and propoganda to generation after generation. They are always out to beat the system, and refuse to accept the australian way of life [/mass generalisation]

Just because my view isnt politically correct pkc doesnt make it wrong or right.

quote:

Originally posted by Paulie That comment was directed at our canadian mate Nyquist, who just criticises the government constantly. My comment is to him, if he doesnt like it, he should go back to canada.

the only reason i chose to come to this country was to talk about politics, dude. sorry if you don't like what you hear.

quote:

[b]Originally posted by Paulie [/b [cue mass generalisation] The current influx of islamic cultures completely go against what migration is about. They build communities within our community, and continually fuel their hate and propoganda to generation after generation. They are always out to beat the system, and refuse to accept the australian way of life [/mass generalisation] Just because my view isnt politically correct pkc doesnt make it wrong or right.

LOL This is exactly what has been said about every wave of immigrants.

quote:

Originally posted by Paulie Phil my parents, your grandparents, got asked to come into the country. They have worked their butts off for the last 30-40 years to make australia what it is today.

roger that.

quote:

Originally posted by Paulie They build communities within our community, and continually fuel their hate and propoganda to generation after generation...They are always out to beat the system, and refuse to accept the australian way of life

look, i can totally see where youre coming from, and you would certainly be in a geographical region where you would experince more of this than i. and you only need to scan the news to hear of certain things that make you livid with anger. dont get me wrong, im not a politically correct hippie. and we wont go into my strong biases against certain elements of various cultures

but im just not sure those in detention are the same people youre describing. obviously i could be wrong.
people do all kinds of awful things & are punished by the legal system, getting far less time behind bars. imo something should be done to reduce the length of time they spend inside.

but even with legal immigration, bad apples are always going to be in the mix. im certainly not saying youre wrong in this context, but id really need to see some kind of data or evidence that showed a great number of middle easterners fit the generalisation(s) youve made.

i know the media just fvcking loves to highlight particular things in all peoples/races/classes in different contexts, and whilst those things obviously have had to occur to be news (you hope), i certainly dont have any idea if thats an adequate representation. i mean, how the fvck can you tell?

quote:

Originally posted by Paulie Just because my view isnt politically correct pkc doesnt make it wrong or right.

word. dont get me started on women and their stupid stupid ideas

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN word. dont get me started on women and their stupid stupid ideas

Damn. Finally pkc says something I agree with.

Dammit woman, get back in the kitchen and bake me some pie!!!

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Originally posted by quidgydog Damn. Finally pkc says something I agree with. Dammit woman, get back in the kitchen and bake me some pie!!!

What sort

Choco-Pie!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

quote:

Originally posted by quidgydog Damn. Finally pkc says something I agree with. Dammit woman, get back in the kitchen and bake me some pie!!!

would u like arsenic sauce with that

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Originally posted by DIDI What sort

Apple of course!!!!!!

Shit, is there any other type?!

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Originally posted by narcism would u like arsenic sauce with that

Actually, my lovely lady makes quite good apple pie for me - and hasn't once tried to poison me yet.

Though, now that my life insurance is set up . . . . . . .

quote:

Originally posted by Paulie Phil my parents, your grandparents, got asked to come into the country. They have worked their butts off for the last 30-40 years to make australia what it is today. Greeks, Italians and the asians sure might have built their own community but they have also taken pride in their australian heritage and are proud to call themselves australian. Therefore our parents and grandparents situation doesnt even compare.

haha
just getting you fired up

*
damn straight about the women!!! far out
we give them the vote, we give them jobs, they still fucken complain! what more do u want?!?!?!??

quote:

Originally posted by Paulie [cue mass generalisation] The current influx of islamic cultures completely go against what migration is about. They build communities within our community, and continually fuel their hate and propoganda to generation after generation. They are always out to beat the system, and refuse to accept the australian way of life [/mass generalisation]

another tool which News Limited and other conservative factions of the media have led to believe that all Muslims are 'evil' and have nothing better to do in their spare time than blow people up.

Im not gunna go into reasons why this is the case, it is deeply historical and political, and has much to do with the collapse of the Soviet Union, the end of the Cold War and third world intervention, but jesus man you must seriously be living in a hole, reading/viewing that material that my pet cat could distinguish as what you label 'propaganda'. Extremists factions in all religions should be put down as they don't, nor do they wish to understand the true moral and ethical basis of what their 'religion' actually preaches.

quote:

Originally posted by S_madis another tool which News Limited and other conservative factions of the media have led to believe that all Muslims are 'evil' and have nothing better to do in their spare time than blow people up.

duh moron everyone knows that all muslims are terrorists

quote:

Originally posted by Philby duh moron everyone knows that all muslims are terrorists

'The broad-minded see the truth in different religions; the narrow-minded see only the differences'

a chinese proverb I stubbled across a while back

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